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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS M6 Mark II 4K is "pixel binned 3K" and Sony A6600 old sensor debacle "due to internal politics"

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canon_m6ii_08.jpg

If the Sony A6600 is a flagship camera, I'm a little pixie elf.

It's a flag at half mast kind of camera, in mourning of a once innovative camera division. 2016's technology with a bigger battery.

Interestingly a source who has been right many times before about Sony tells us that the Sony Professional Video division wanted to reserve the more capable IMX571 26 megapixel sensor for future professional camcorders.

Meanwhile the same sensor is yours for just £750 in the Fuji X-T30, with minimal rolling shutter, 6K full pixel readout, no crop in 30p, double the bitrate in 24p (200Mbit) and Fuji's colour science along with F-LOG.

Remind me again why I should buy the A6600?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Sony wont innovate because of the FS7 and F5 which both are great and industry workhorses, however are due for an update. So everyone beneath the FS7 will continue to suffer.

I believe in 12 or 13 days the a7sii will officially be 4 years old so there may be an announcement at IBC in 2 weeks.

At this point Canon doesn't care about the lower end/consumer video market. 

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Canon was number 1 for so long that stayed idle for too long.

Sony believes that they are cruising to the number 1 spot anyway (and they control the camera sensor market).

It takes 1 major player (Samsung, Panasonic, Fuji, China, India, Israel, someone else?) to invest on sensors technology and production to sink both of them.

"And you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'"

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Quote

Pixel binning 2×2 was the only way to avoid the “Canon-crop” on the 90D and EOS M6 Mark II.

This sentence contains the only mention of the 90D in this article... but we were told both the M6mkII and 90D share the same sensor.

So does the 90D do these pixel-shenanigans too?  Upscaled 3K or whatever?

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42 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Meanwhile the same sensor is yours for just £750 in the Fuji X-T30, with minimal rolling shutter, 6K full pixel readout, no crop in 30p, double the bitrate in 24p (200Mbit) and Fuji's colour science along with F-LOG.

I was certain the new Sony would at least match the x-t3. Oh well.

How does the Z6 image compare to the x-t3's all i and the x-t30's 200mbit?

2 minutes ago, Michael Scrip said:

This sentence contains the only mention of the 90D in this article... but we were told both the M6mkII and 90D share the same sensor.

So does the 90D do these pixel-shenanigans too?  Upscaled 3K or whatever?

The small print in that first 90d promotional video says that 4k is from video processing. It might not be as bad but it doesn't sound like it's full 4k.

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5 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Sony believes that they are cruising to the number 1 spot

In what?

Look at the numbers of FS5/7 out there making stuff. Not to mention live broadcast.  Arguably they are de facto number 1 in some areas? 

There is no single “number 1”. Just an awful lot of pedestals serving different markets.

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7 minutes ago, Thomas Hill said:

The small print in that first 90d promotional video says that 4k is from video processing. It might not be as bad but it doesn't sound like it's full 4k.

Darn.  Oh well... I guess we'll have to wait for reviews.  There wasn't enough time to test everything at the Canon events.

Dan Watson said that the cropped 4K mode actually looked better in his short time with the camera. 

So I wonder what's the difference between "full-ish" 4K and "cropped" 4K on the 90D.

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7 minutes ago, Michael Scrip said:

Darn.  Oh well... I guess we'll have to wait for reviews.  There wasn't enough time to test everything at the Canon events.

Dan Watson said that the cropped 4K mode actually looked better in his short time with the camera. 

So I wonder what's the difference between "full-ish" 4K and "cropped" 4K on the 90D.

Crop mode might be actually supersampling from center portion (24/20mp portion? Not extreme 1.8x like EOS R), hence better quality and have warning of overheating when you select this option. EOS R's 1080p in APSC mode is also supersampling hence better quality than FF 1080p

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16 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

In what?

Look at the numbers of FS5/7 out there making stuff. Not to mention live broadcast.  Arguably they are de facto number 1 in some areas? 

There is no single “number 1”. Just an awful lot of pedestals serving different markets.

Yeah in the market I work in (Pro and college sports) Sony is far away the no.1 choice

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As an a6300/a73 owner I don't give two shits about the new a6x00's, especially the "flagship" with the old sensor and same video specs. $1400 gets you a Z6, which outside of AF and photo FPS speeds, is superior in every way. The only way Sony gets my cash to upgrade the a6300 is the XT3's sensor and 10-bit/4k60p, but its obvious that's not happening in the next 2-3 years until the next gen bodies are released. Been tempted by the XT3, but I mostly use AF and I don't want to carry two sets of lenses, so I'm still in the Sony camp for now.

But I'm also in the camp that doesn't expect the a7s3 to be anything close to the S1H, IMO it gets a new sensor - Andriodlad says the quad bayer is coming - and the new AF system, with 10-bit HDMI only to keep it out of FS5 territory. I've done a lot of work in TV and doc's, its split between C1/300's and FS5/7's in my neck of the woods. Everyone shooting commercials I've worked with is on Canon or Red except one company that uses a FS7. I can't imagine Sony letting the a7s3 run into FS territory the way Panasonic just created a FF mashup of the EVA and GH5 in the S1H. Sony is going more conservative with every new camera.

Chris

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Thanks much for your feedback Andrew on this just announced M6-Mark-II.  I was about to get rid of my existing (and very humble) Olympus E-M10 Mark-III and 'upgrade' to this M6 Mark-III as my first foray into the Canon world.  I thought, double the megapixels, a larger sensor (m4/3 vs APS-C) DPAF vs CDAF only, etc.  But now, your insightfulness has created pause to rethink matters.  Now, I am thinking to either wait for the upcoming Olympus E-M5 Mark-III and stick with M4/3, or to  go full frame and consider A7-III et el,  Or perhaps I should venture into the Fuji camp and consider X-T3/X-T30, albeit no IBIS (I think) and also owning no Fuji lenses.  I tend to shy away from full frame because of the  added weight, size, and expense for lenses, and at this point in life (age) I really like the relative compactness of the current Olympus or this new M6-Mark-II.  I like the ergonomics and control layout of the Olympus but the menu system is another story!. But size alone is surely not the only factor.  Perhaps the all around compromise might be the Fuji X-T3 / X-T30 but again, no lenses.   Alternatively, just wait and see what Olympus produces with the upcoming E-M5-Mark III.   It is rumored to minimally have the capable sensor of the current E-M1-MKII but with new processor.   Anyway, again, thanks for the heads up info on the shortcomings of the M6 Mark-II 4K specifications  not being true 4K.  It's definitely food-for-thought.  Sheesh!  Even my Samsung Galaxy Note 9 gives me 4K @ 60fps!  ... decisions, decisions, confusion!   (^J^)

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23 minutes ago, tokyojerry said:

Thanks much for your feedback Andrew on this just announced M6-Mark-II.  I was about to get rid of my existing (and very humble) Olympus E-M10 Mark-III and 'upgrade' to this M6 Mark-III as my first foray into the Canon world.  I thought, double the megapixels, a larger sensor (m4/3 vs APS-C) DPAF vs CDAF only, etc.  But now, your insightfulness has created pause to rethink matters.  Now, I am thinking to either wait for the upcoming Olympus E-M5 Mark-III and stick with M4/3, or to  go full frame and consider A7-III et el,  Or perhaps I should venture into the Fuji camp and consider X-T3/X-T30, albeit no IBIS (I think) and also owning no Fuji lenses.  I tend to shy away from full frame because of the  added weight, size, and expense for lenses, and at this point in life (age) I really like the relative compactness of the current Olympus or this new M6-Mark-II.  I like the ergonomics and control layout of the Olympus but the menu system is another story!. But size alone is surely not the only factor.  Perhaps the all around compromise might be the Fuji X-T3 / X-T30 but again, no lenses.   Alternatively, just wait and see what Olympus produces with the upcoming E-M5-Mark III.   It is rumored to minimally have the capable sensor of the current E-M1-MKII but with new processor.   Anyway, again, thanks for the heads up info on the shortcomings of the M6 Mark-II 4K specifications  not being true 4K.  It's definitely food-for-thought.  Sheesh!  Even my Samsung Galaxy Note 9 gives me 4K @ 60fps!  ... decisions, decisions, confusion!   (^J^)

I’d hold off on canon apsc as their sensors are technically smaller than Sony and Fuji apsc so the size difference between it and what you have isn’t really that huge. Especially once the canon crops in (if it does in 4K) 

i imagine even a speed booster on ur current body would generate better imagery  

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It is my understanding that Sony's 5k and 6k full pixel readout and scaling to 4k video...is dont at the A/D conversion level. The sensor does that proprietary scaling right on the sensor and feeds that final 4k image to whatever video processor your camera has.

Why does this matter? Because all of the readout and scaling engine is on the chip itself. Your image processor doesnt have to do that work!

Anybody who buys a Sony sensor has access to the scaling readout modes. So when Canon buys 1 inch Sony sensors,...bang!...they got Sony-style full pixel readout. Since Canon makes their own FF and APSC sensors,...they dont have that scaling engine onboard! Their DIGIC processor has to collect and scale that readout by itself!

CLEARLY.....Canon has NOT figured out how to do 4k with anything more than a 1:1 deBayer or a 1:1 assembly using binning or line skipping!!

Canon is literly 10 years behind Sony in sensor readout and image assembly mathematics!

My God....wow.

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22 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

It is my understanding that Sony's 5k and 6k full pixel readout and scaling to 4k video...is dont at the A/D conversion level. The sensor does that proprietary scaling right on the sensor and feeds that final 4k image to whatever video processor your camera has.

Why does this matter? Because all of the readout and scaling engine is on the chip itself. Your image processor doesnt have to do that work!

Anybody who buys a Sony sensor has access to the scaling readout modes. So when Canon buys 1 inch Sony sensors,...bang!...they got Sony-style full pixel readout. Since Canon makes their own FF and APSC sensors,...they dont have that scaling engine onboard! Their DIGIC processor has to collect and scale that readout by itself!

CLEARLY.....Canon has NOT figured out how to do 4k with anything more than a 1:1 deBayer or a 1:1 assembly using binning or line skipping!!

Canon is literly 10 years behind Sony in sensor readout and image assembly mathematics!

My God....wow.

Excellent explanation. This is why every camera that uses a Sony sensor can do full pixel readout no problem. Even an $800 xt30!

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41 minutes ago, darcyperkins said:

I'd just like to point out that I don't often read people complaining that ARRI uses upscaled 2.8K instead of true 4K (at least up until recently)...

yeah but comparing an Alexa Mini to to cheap a mirrorless camera is silly. 

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8 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

Sony wont innovate because of the FS7 and F5 which both are great and industry workhorses, however are due for an update. So everyone beneath the FS7 will continue to suffer.

I believe in 12 or 13 days the a7sii will officially be 4 years old so there may be an announcement at IBC in 2 weeks.

At this point Canon doesn't care about the lower end/consumer video market. 

I think that the reason Sony is showing no real love for APSC is because it wants its customers to migrate to FF (sensor manufacturer wants customers to buy larger sensors!!) 

This is where Sony has its competitive advantage - the A7r4 is two generations ahead of what Canon and Nikon offers (for stills) - as well as the widest lens offerings.

So look at pretty much any a6600 review and it says - dont but it, buy the A7iii. Of course they will lose dedicated apsc enthusiasts to Fuji but I guess that is just collateral damage.

There has to be a question of how dedicated Sony really is to the video market (beyond providing the basics.) Their focus definitely seems to be on the 'bigger' stills picture. I guess we will find out if when we get the A7siii. In the longer run, I think Sony will find it difficult to compete with Panasonic in video - simply because Panasonic focused on 'video'...

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2 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

There has to be a question of how dedicated Sony really is to the video market (beyond providing the basics.) Their focus definitely seems to be on the 'bigger' stills picture. I guess we will find out if when we get the A7siii. In the longer run, I think Sony will find it difficult to compete with Panasonic in video - simply because Panasonic focused on 'video'...

Its interesting because I have a friend that works at a Rental House in LA. He says the Venice has been an absolute hit, where the old F55/F65 never took off in the hollywood market. The new color and filmic look seems to be the reason why. 

Ofc nowhere near as popular as the Alexa Mini which is by far the most popular in Hollywood. But baby steps I guess..

Id like to see some Venice things trickle down.

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