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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 6K

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28 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I still don't understand what you are trying to convey here.

The industry accepts that images shot at 24p have 'stutter' for lack of a better word. There are ways to minimise it in the way you shoot, but 24fps can only provide smooth motion up to a certain point.  

https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/65391-a-question-about-motion-cadence/&do=findComment&comment=418530

Maybe read that thread and argue your case there. 

I don't know but I think this conversation is probably boring the hell out of people wanting to know about the P6K.

From your link "In shots that do exhibit undesirable judder there's always post motion flow and blurring effects". 

Judder is not stutter and show me in motion film where that "stutter" is the you say exist?

What exist is sensors and cameras today can't process the information.  It's not a stutter in 24fps. 

 

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47 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Cine cameras don't have shutter speeds as they have shutter angles.

Uhh....you do realize that shutter speed and shutter angle are both just different ways of expressing the exact same thing, right? Some cameras even allow you a choice in which of the two that you display on your screen. Like, oh, I don't know...the P4K and the P6K.

1401713016_ScreenShot2019-08-14at10_05_23PM.thumb.png.49dcd8e91d0b21c81769987a5e493783.png

If you want to convert shutter speed to shutter angles at 24 fps the math is:
(24 x 360) / Time Fraction

So,  

180 degree shutter angle = 1/48
270 degree shutter angle = 1/32
 90 degree shutter angle = 1/96

Photographers usually talk in terms of the shutter speed, while the video people talk in terms of shutter angle.

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1 hour ago, drm said:

Uhh....you do realize that shutter speed and shutter angle are both just different ways of expressing the exact same thing, right? Some cameras even allow you a choice in which of the two that you display on your screen. Like, oh, I don't know...the P4K and the P6K.

1401713016_ScreenShot2019-08-14at10_05_23PM.thumb.png.49dcd8e91d0b21c81769987a5e493783.png

If you want to convert shutter speed to shutter angles at 24 fps the math is:
(24 x 360) / Time Fraction

So,  

180 degree shutter angle = 1/48
270 degree shutter angle = 1/32
 90 degree shutter angle = 1/96

Photographers usually talk in terms of the shutter speed, while the video people talk in terms of shutter angle.

Motion cadence is NOT motion blur.  Who taught you that?  That's 100% what motion cadence is not.

And cinematographers that use the C200 or C300 or RED would laugh at you.  Of course you use ND filters when you need them.

Motion cadence issues are not based on what shutter speed you use.  It has to do with the camera, sensor and processor ability.  Shooting at 24fps, iso 800 and shutter speed of 50 for the RED, P6K and GH5 will give you the same results if each camera can keep up.  You actually don't understand what good motion cadence actually is.  The difference between cameras is night and day if you know what to look for. 

It's not talked about today because of the VIDEO you posted of yourself talking about jacked iPhones and ND filters and what you sell online. 

Are you also really basing your information on another message board talk forum about camera pans? Really? You have zero experience to pull from? 

1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

I heard about this 7 second rule when shooting at 24 FPS and 180 degree shutter so you don’t break the illusion of artifact free motion. Could be a myth though. 🙃

It depends on the speed of the pan and distance but it's a data issues not a glitch in 24fps.

But shooting at 24fps and 180 degree shutter  7 seconds of someone walking across the street doesn't give you a "stutter" in the footage at the 7 second mark. 

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

LOL Hilarious presumptuous "debate", they obviously mean the same... ; )

In the cine world changing the "shutter angle" is not the first thing you do when fighting with light and exposure.  IN the DSLR, mirrorless and iPhone, ND filters online r us world, shutter speed is the first thing they change.  

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In the cine world, people will tend to use the 180º shutter angle, 24fps -> 1/48th (DSLRs usually offer approximately 1/50th to begin with), 60fps -> 1/120th, etc. Hence the motion cadence. The different terminology won't change the fact there's no difference between shutter speed and shutter angle. Just two distinct ways to say the same as happens along the Blackmagic cameras, on P4K at least. It is nothing about motion blur rather than motion cadence on his post. The other user didn't hint that at all WTH *phew* He didn't suggest you could vary the angle to some slow shutter speed / 360º shutter angle to get that, more prone to pop up in the realm of still photography but possible to reach on video as well, obviously.

 

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56 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

In the cine world, people will tend to use the 180º shutter angle, 24fps -> 1/48th (DSLRs usually offer approximately 1/50th to begin with), 60fps -> 1/120th, etc. Hence the motion cadence. The different terminology won't change the fact there's no difference between shutter speed and shutter angle. Just two distinct ways to say the same as happens along the Blackmagic cameras, on P4K at least. It is nothing about motion blur rather than motion cadence on his post. The other user didn't hint that at all WTH *phew* He didn't suggest you could vary the angle to some slow shutter speed / 360º shutter angle to get that, more prone to pop up in the realm of still photography but possible to reach on video as well, obviously.

 

My motion cadence comments are not about shutter speed or shutter angle setting but purely on sensor readout and processing.  I never commented on the correct settings used for motion because that's a given. 

Here's a short thread about motion cadence.  Where is your funny comment and post in that thread?  Black Magic is mentioned as having very good motion cadence.

This was posted by SAM a few years back. (No not Sam from Kiss Meets the Phantom of the Park)

What surprised me, even though the clips were synced, there appears to be drift by some of the cams. And not the kind where one or more of the pendelum shots either pull ahead or fall behind the others due to a tiny difference in frame rates like 23.98 vs 24. The clips seem to be drifting minutely ahead in one frame and then getting slightly behind in another and so on through out the clip, but they start and finish all together.  

What's easiest to see is the impact of rolling shutter. And we've all seen at least one of the multitude of rolling shutter tests involving cmos sensors.  In the discussions that revolve around these tests, someone usually chimes in with "well the Alexa has a cmos sensor" and then the conversation turns to  "faster read out speed" This, 

http://tessive.com/mechanical-shutter-comparison/ , which many of us have seen before, at least outlines a difference, stark or otherwise.  Whether this is part of what people notice, or not? 

 

________________________________________________________________

 

Good stuff talked about before.  

17 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I agree with @Mattias Burling, this doesn’t really “sell” the quality of the camera. In fact, the entire footage page they published doesn’t either. Could easily be filmed with a GH5 and I wouldn’t notice. 

This is mostly down to the filmmakers though and not the camera, however it’s clear that the gulf between camera quality is much less and pretty much every new release doesn’t have that “special sauce” to differentiate them enough. 

I like Blackmagic but they should go to a modular ZCAM box design. The poor battery, fixed screen and odd shape make it a no-go for me. This would be an absolute no brainer if you could just pull it out the box and shoot without having to bolt on a few bricks to make it work reliably.

Lots of options these days - but also in these days I’m thinking far less about my cameras choices than ever. 

You had some great information on "motion cadence" that goes way back before 2014 I believe.  Can you add some additional input on the subject? 

Here's what you posted before -

@Oliver Daniel

Posted April 22, 2018

@jonpais, I recently submitted a broadcast file via the Universal Records system and you have to pass numerous quality checks. One of them, is motion cadence. 

You can't submit a video that has 4:1 cadence, which has 4 progressive frame of video, and every 5th frame is a repeat of the 4th frame. (This is more to do with people using content shot at a lower frame rate (like 24fps), and converting it to 30fps incorrectly). They are preventing the video motion from looking unusual or low quality with this check. 

I'm in NO WAY WHATSOEVER a camera technician or scientist but I'll explain my understanding. Apart form the obvious frame rate / shutter speed / global shutter / codecs influence on motion cadence, all cameras capture and interpret frames differently. Some cameras may capture in a "false progressive" (interlaced frames which mimics progressive video), frame capture that is made up of some progressive frames or some interlaced, or cameras that have a truly progressive frame capture. 

Now there's motion blur. Motion cadence on modern TV's is destroyed because they are defaulted to a special motion setting (like TruMotion), which manufactures say makes the images look clearer and smoother. The setting when turned "On" makes the image feel like there's a bunch of new frames thrown in, eradicating motion blur and giving us the dreaded "soap opera effect". 

With all of this considered, an attractive, cinematic motion cadence is the ability to capture full progressive frames smoothly with intricate motion blur (as long as your frame rate is half your shutter and if it's global then BONUS!). To do this, you must start with the right codec first (the best of which, to my experience, is uncompressed RAW converted to ProRes).  

It's no coincidence that expensive cinema cameras (and BM cams) have this motion cadence (very high shutter readout, RAW and ProRes, high bit rate) and consumer cameras do not at all (besides the 5D Mk 3 Magic Lantern). 

An external factor I find is the lens. A lens with electronic contacts with I.S and all that jazz, usually overly sharp and contrasty, hurt motion cadence. I feel it's because they heighten the "electronic" factors (sharpening, aliasing, moire, noise, jittery look). Lenses with a smooth rendering, regarded "creamy", very often manual glass and high T-stop really smooths out the motion of the image and hides the electronic factors that make our images digital looking. 

So in a nutshell, for beautiful motion cadence, shoot in RAW at 24p and 1/48s with a very fast rolling shutter /global shutter, with manual "proper" cine lenses and finish in ProRes. Come think of it, I now find my post pointless, as I thought we all knew that anyway!! 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

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32 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

My motion cadence comments ...SNIP!

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Good grief, maybe posts like this should go into the motion cadence thread eh?

I never said motion cadence wasn't a thing. We are replying to your comments that all film motion is smooth as 'silk' and I'm stating that the motion cadence of that original clip you posted was "smooth as silk" because it was shot and even delivered at 50p! 

Now spare us all the posts that are as long as Gone with the Wind and a little off topic in this thread and stick to the other thread you resurrected about motion cadence.

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10 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Good grief, maybe posts like this should go into the motion cadence thread eh?

I never said motion cadence wasn't a thing. We are replying to your comments that all film motion is smooth as 'silk' and I'm stating that the motion cadence of that original clip you posted was "smooth as silk" because it was shot and even delivered at 50p! 

Now spare us all the posts that are as long as Gone with the Wind and a little off topic in this thread and stick to the other thread you resurrected about motion cadence.

@Oliver Daniel  wrote:  "Lenses with a smooth rendering, regarded "creamy"

So why tell me why you have issue with me saying smooth as silk but @Oliver Daniel can say ""Lenses with a smooth rendering, regarded "creamy" and you have no issue with it.

And of course I used the word smooth as silk to describe 50fps. I never said all film motion is smooth as silk.  I said film motion cadence is captured natural in film.

You can apologize for being an hypocritical ass and posting nonsense that you don't do to others.

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I do not want to participate but a specific someone is playing us like a fiddle for 15 pages now. Drags people into the nonsense abyss and single handedly destroyed the P6K thread for everyone that is trying to learn anything at all about this camera. Also, is the individual attacking most people on the smaller amount of time I have ever seen here.

Stop feeding him and please try to not completely loose control of the thread, any thread.

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21 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

Stop feeding him and please try to not completely loose control of the thread, any thread.

I agree and will not post anymore on this derail. I'll be in the "stutter vs judder thread".

 

 

 

(Sorry, I fought the urge ;) )

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17 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I do not want to participate but a specific someone is playing us like a fiddle for 15 pages now. Drags people into the nonsense abyss and single handedly destroyed the P6K thread for everyone that is trying to learn anything at all about this camera. Also, is the individual attacking most people on the smaller amount of time I have ever seen here.

Stop feeding him and please try to not completely loose control of the thread, any thread.

You are wrong again as usual.  You try to store things up and make false accusations.

My posted with footage started on page 17

I posted footage from the P6K and said "There has to be more data being captured at a better scan rate then the P4K." and And what you and everyone else has been saying is who needs, who can work with and 6K is not better then the P4K with a speed-booster.  This footage shows the P6K is more cinematic then the P4K."

You can think the others for not letting someone have an opinion. No one brought facts they were just annoyed that I said the P6K looked better then the P4K.

Motion cadence was first mentioned by Crivase on page 15

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10 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Motion cadence is NOT motion blur.  Who taught you that?  That's 100% what motion cadence is not.

And cinematographers that use the C200 or C300 or RED would laugh at you.  Of course you use ND filters when you need them.

Motion cadence issues are not based on what shutter speed you use.  It has to do with the camera, sensor and processor ability.  Shooting at 24fps, iso 800 and shutter speed of 50 for the RED, P6K and GH5 will give you the same results if each camera can keep up.  You actually don't understand what good motion cadence actually is.  The difference between cameras is night and day if you know what to look for. 

It's not talked about today because of the VIDEO you posted of yourself talking about jacked iPhones and ND filters and what you sell online. 

Are you also really basing your information on another message board talk forum about camera pans? Really? You have zero experience to pull from? 

It depends on the speed of the pan and distance but it's a data issues not a glitch in 24fps.

But shooting at 24fps and 180 degree shutter  7 seconds of someone walking across the street doesn't give you a "stutter" in the footage at the 7 second mark. 

In the cine world changing the "shutter angle" is not the first thing you do when fighting with light and exposure.  IN the DSLR, mirrorless and iPhone, ND filters online r us world, shutter speed is the first thing they change.  

Skip77 Nice job DEFLECTING. You said QUOTE:

"Cine cameras don't have shutter speeds as they have shutter angles."

Which, as I pointed out, is not correct. Period. I then showed you a screen shot of the rear of a P4K, clearly showing both Shutter Speed and Shutter Angle as options. A couple of us tried to help you understand that shutter angle and shutter speed refer to the same thing. Rather than admit that you made an error, you ignored that fact and rambled on about other stuff. That is the only thing from your post that I mentioned.

You are really quick to say that others are wrong, but I haven't seen you admit when you are wrong. Why is that?

There are many *really* experienced people on here who would be happy to help you learn something if you stopped being difficult and listened.

Are you just trying to be disruptive or are you just another millennial that thinks that you know everything? It appears to me that you have a bad case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

=======

To everyone else. My apologies for derailing the thread. I am going back to work and ignoring this nonsense. I certainly don't have time to participate in some troll fest. :) 

Here is a video for Skip77. If he doesn't think that it is hilarious, that tells me everything that I need to know :grin:

 

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1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

..and suddenly the P6K thread is dead silent!

Do you remember what was going on when the P4K was announced?

The P6K is an excellent and very reasonably priced option for 6K and EF aficionados, but the price and features of P4K spoiled us all for ever!

Kisaha,

I have a P6K sitting here at the office. If there is anything that people would like to know, please let me know. I will try to answer it.

Here is some new P6K footage:

and Tom Antos put out a YouTube video about the P6K that is pretty good as well.

 

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