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Panasonic GH6 rumours


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More DR, internal ProRes and external RAW would be preferably to more pixels.

A7SIII is the closet FF camera that has come to pulling me out of MFT land as a primary camera. The 12MP sensor kinda kills it for me. I wish it was closer to 20MP for photography. 15MP might have bee

It is interesting that the top three spots on Andrew's list of the most popular cameras on EOSHD are all M43 cameras.  Yet every day we have new posts bemoaning the impending death of the format.  And

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17 hours ago, Amazeballs said:

There is also one feature I've been dying to see - a big 4.5-5 inch flip out screen. And a fuckin bright one. The never released Sharp prototype of 8k camera nailed it. 

That might actually be a bit easier to design - currently the GH5 has a higher resolution viewfinder than the screen, but maybe a larger screen could match the viewfinder and make the design a bit simpler.

A higher resolution viewfinder / screen would make manually focussing so much better too.  At the moment the focus peaking isn't that great.

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I have been wondering about this for a while. I realised, from the various publications and blog posts, that almost everyone has gotten the exact specs of the GH5s (and the GH5) Sensor Wrong. It is actually a smaller sensor to the GH5, (21.63mm vs 21.77mm diagnal, or about 0.64% smaller based on the diagonal measurements, or about 10.1% according the absolute chip sizes of both, which though could be to accommodate more functions). That's why the increase in pixel size seems, curiously. too small (4.63µm vs 3.30µm), for something with almost 1/2 the MP count (10MP vs 20MP). Also, the GH5s sensor is a lot more rectangle, as compared to the GH5 sensor, which is more square. Plus, the stated MP count on the GH5s is also incorrect on the data sheet, because it only measures them according to the various aspect ratios, and conveniently doesn't mention the absolute pixel count of the sensor, and there is greater wastage in the various aspect ratios, for maximum photo or resolution. The BMPCC4k has an effective sensor area of 18.96mm x 10mm, so it has a crop very similar to the GH5s in the DCI 4k ratio. so the low light advantage of the GH5s (and the PC4k) seems mostly to do with the fabrication, quad pixel(?), and newer sensor technology. Otherwise if the sensor was the same size or larger, the pixels would have been larger than the 40% increased from the GH5. I am also curious to know what the maximum width of the M43 mount sensor can be, before the corners start getting unacceptably soft. 

Basically, what all this means, in layman's language, is that based solely on the sensor technology available right now, there is still a lot of juice left in M43. 

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As I said before, always thought that if any other m43 camera would be released, would be a GH6. Now I have some doubts, with the possibilty or form.

First, about the state of m43 as a system. After the Olympus news, nothing new - the E-M10 IV was already on the way, was not a new camera. Long ago a GX10 rumor saying that it would be released in the first half of 2020 - nothing. The JIP deal is still under wraps. The future is cloudy - and if JIP don't have the wish to continue the Olympus business, I think that Panasonic will not put much money on it - very few new lenses, if any, probably specialized like the 10-25 zoom - or even keep supporting alone the format.

Second, the IR interview. Panasonic said very clearly that wants L-mount to be a standard mount for video. About m43 - lots of "evaluating where to go with the development", and talking about telephoto / supertelephoto / high frame rate.

The "H" in the GH stands for "Hybrid" - hence, they were targeted as hybrid cameras, good for video and stills. Alwways was the case since the GH1, but the GH5s breaks the mold, and this assumption could not be right anymore.

Now I have two views for the future:

- The S5 is the new GH6 - the body looks VERY like the GH5, specially the top plate scheme. Almost the same tech specs - and probably if anything is not there, Panasonic could say "get the S1H";

- The GH6 will be a specialized high frame rate little monster - 4k120p no crop, 6k60p. Maybe they get the GH5s route and make a video only focused model, with a 6k sensor, and some new and unique features, to justify an almost certain price increase, around the $2500 mark.

And I doubt that we will se a GH7.

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I’m not in the market for a GH6 or any 4/3 camera but surely with what is going to be the demise of Olympus as we know it, if there is no GH6, then 4/3 is dead?

Not dead as in cannot be used, but dead as in it only leaves a few cinema type bodies which I imagine hardly sell in any kind of quantity.

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1 hour ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

And I doubt that we will se a GH7.

I suspect that you might be right about that one.

56 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I’m not in the market for a GH6 or any 4/3 camera but surely with what is going to be the demise of Olympus as we know it, if there is no GH6, then 4/3 is dead?

Not dead as in cannot be used, but dead as in it only leaves a few cinema type bodies which I imagine hardly sell in any kind of quantity.

I suspect not dead, but probably not in the world leading features ages either.

Fundamentally, focal length is determined by sensor size, and lens size is determined by focal length, so MFT will always have an advantage of being a physically smaller but still interchangeable lens mount where there are already lenses available.  In that sense there might be continuing budget lines from Panasonic.  They could keep on making cheaper cameras but with better features still using the tech that already exists and is gradually decreasing in price.

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Maybe, but if they do kill their 4/3 ‘flagship’ line, what message does it send?

But don’t get me wrong, I like and have used 4/3 previously just that for the stills side of my work, it’s not quite enough whereas APSC is. Just.

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2 hours ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Now I have two views for the future:

- The S5 is the new GH6 - the body looks VERY like the GH5, specially the top plate scheme. Almost the same tech specs - and probably if anything is not there, Panasonic could say "get the S1H";

Olympus is a dead camera company. Its surprisingly that they survived so long, despite the extremely high levels of corruption (unaccounted for spending and money laundering). Maybe their superb engineers pushed their downfall by a few years. Because it's a Dead Company, for cameras, it has almost nothing to lose. They don't really make Cinema Cameras and by the time their own stocks sell, they would just concentrate on their other divisions (medicial imaging and other stuff).

Panasonic, fortunately or unfortunately isn't in the same boat. It had a cinema line, lots of point and shoot models, 2 clear sensor size ILC lineup, and many other camera models within its imaging division. The M43 lineup being packed up, would mean that Panasonic isn't very serious about its ILC lineup. And that, if they can pack up the M43 lineup, there is a great chance that the LMount van also pack up. And in Way less than 10 years. Panasonic's sales seem to be increasing, and the majority are obviously Not from their L-Mount. So the M43 lineup not doing well, can not be the reason. Also, Unlike Olympus, Panasonic did not have Billions of Dollars MISSING from their company.

 

2 hours ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

- The GH6 will be a specialized high frame rate little monster - 4k120p no crop, 6k60p. Maybe they get the GH5s route and make a video only focused model, with a 6k sensor, and some new and unique features, to justify an almost certain price increase, around the $2500 mark.

And I doubt that we will se a GH7.

I hope that there is a GH6. Which would assure M43 and All Panasonic users that Panasonic didn't abandon its users, Well Before the whole Olympus fiasco happened. It takes atleast a few years 2-5), to plan and develop the next camera. If the GH6 is released and priced at $,2500, it would be a Monumental Disaster. People will find it difficult to justify pricing a M43 sensor camera higher than a FF sensor camera. Especially if it doesn't have RAW video.  Also, I doubt whether it can offer image quality as high as an XT3 or XT4, without pushing the bit depth to 14-bit, having Dual ISO (and the second one set pretty high) and improving the overall sensor quality. IMHO, the problem with M43's image quality is more an issue with Panasonic not working hard enough on the sensor development, than one solely due to Physics or some other rubbish attributed to the M43 sensor size. Plus the M43 sensor size itself is a misnomer, with Panasonic having varying sensor sizes, the majority of which are smaller than 17.3x13mm. Even the GH5s' sensor is wider in breadth, but much narrower in height, and that's why its pixels are much smaller than they should be, and its sensor size is overall smaller than the GH5.

Maybe it's high time Panasonic start planning their imaging lineup with a lot more feedback from users. They did that with the GH5, and didn't do that with the GH5s (they listened to some former BBC fuddy duddies), and that is why rahe GH5s was a damp squib. And similar things happened with many other models of theirs, after the GH5. 

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3 hours ago, sanveer said:

I hope that there is a GH6. Which would assure M43 and All Panasonic users that Panasonic didn't abandon its users, Well Before the whole Olympus fiasco happened. It takes atleast a few years 2-5), to plan and develop the next camera. If the GH6 is released and priced at $,2500, it would be a Monumental Disaster. People will find it difficult to justify pricing a M43 sensor camera higher than a FF sensor camera. Especially if it doesn't have RAW video. 

Hence all the talking about "high frame rates". 2500 for a general camera, yes. But for a, let's say, 4k240 fps and 6k120fps camera? Maybe.

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1 hour ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Hence all the talking about "high frame rates". 2500 for a general camera, yes. But for a, let's say, 4k240 fps and 6k120fps camera? Maybe.

Hahaha, Yes.

There seem to be very few, if any, Image Sensor developers experts, who actually know enough about sensors to estimate what is possible with image sensors above what we have on many cameras including the GH5 and GH5s, and many others. If the Panasonic GH6 had similar Dynamic Range to the S1/S5/S5 for video and stills, had 14-bit Photo with FF comparable exposure latitude (or atleast comparable with APS-C flagships) and had a better pricing (about $1500), that alone with make it comparable with most cameras in the APS-C and FF market. But Panasonic doesn't do that, in terms of pricing, then yes 4k at 120fps and above and 6k at atleast 60fps and above would allow a $2000 price and double of that would seem fair at $2500.

Though, I feel Panasonic is not pushing enough tech for K43, and just randomly buying sensors off the shelf, without even tweaking the circuitry. Just having DRAM would atleast double the readout speed (of the present 60fps at full res), if not quadruple it. And having Native ISOs set at ISO400 and ISO6400, along with 14-bit RAW would really help with noise and to push exposure latitude and also improve dynamic range (usable). Panasonic had been releasing some crappy cameras lately like the G100. Also  it didn't advertise enough when it had the GX80, G7 and so many 9ther capable 4k cameras. IMHO they also need to Get Rid of their Advertising Agency, globally, and find someojenway more capable. 

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They just need to add some features that BM cameras typically have..

  • Internal RAW of some sort
  • ProRes Recording
  • Higher frame rates at higher resolutions

They have decent AF (compared to BM offerings), better ergos (in my opinion), weather sealing, great battery life, better build quality, and IBIS (subjectively important).

Include dual native ISO, quad-bayer sensor designs with BSI, and oversampling to control things like noise and boost lowlight performance they would have a nice camera.

But right now it seems FF is where the market is hurtling towards (Sony A7C) but in all honesty Panasonic is not competing there at all in the photo or video department. Most of their traditional advantages are now in their competitors products. And sony seems to be signaling that they get the whole cellphone and DILC markets need to converge. How well they execute that plan is to be seen but at least they get it.

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38 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Hahaha, Yes.

There seem to be very few, if any, Image Sensor developers experts, who actually know enough about sensors to estimate what is possible with image sensors above what we have on many cameras including the GH5 and GH5s, and many others. If the Panasonic GH6 had similar Dynamic Range to the S1/S5/S5 for video and stills, had 14-bit Photo with FF comparable exposure latitude (or atleast comparable with APS-C flagships) and had a better pricing (about $1500), that alone with make it comparable with most cameras in the APS-C and FF market. But Panasonic doesn't do that, in terms of pricing, then yes 4k at 120fps and above and 6k at atleast 60fps and above would allow a $2000 price and double of that would seem fair at $2500.

Though, I feel Panasonic is not pushing enough tech for K43, and just randomly buying sensors off the shelf, without even tweaking the circuitry. Just having DRAM would atleast double the readout speed (of the present 60fps at full res), if not quadruple it. And having Native ISOs set at ISO400 and ISO6400, along with 14-bit RAW would really help with noise and to push exposure latitude and also improve dynamic range (usable). Panasonic had been releasing some crappy cameras lately like the G100. Also  it didn't advertise enough when it had the GX80, G7 and so many 9ther capable 4k cameras. IMHO they also need to Get Rid of their Advertising Agency, globally, and find someojenway more capable. 

Volunteer. Clearly you have to answer to all their shortcomings... 😂

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I do not think that all are so dramatic.

There is a huge m43 user base, and the smaller sensors have advantages, while m43 being in the special territory of not that small, and not that big, with all the advantages and disadvantages that brings.

I can propose another theory, everyone is getting excited with the big sensors, but what about smaller ones? It seems that most photos and videos are shot with tiny mobile sensors, why not a much larger m43 one?

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CineD did another interview with Yamane-San about the S5 and future LUMIX products.

They specifically ask Yamane-San about future GH cameras and if they will be focusing more on L-mount and full frame instead.

The translation

Quote

Regarding the replacement model for the GH camera that you asked about, I will inform you but the information may be spread. Of course, we are considering it, and we look forward to seeing you there.

I find this part of the interview strange. The otherwise great translation goes to shit. WTF does that even mean?

“I will inform you but the information may be spread” - There will be some tidbits of information released? Great!

“Of course, we are considering it [...]” - What are you considering? The development of the GH6? Or just that you are listening to your customers regarding GH6 wants/needs?

“[...] and we look forward to seeing you there.” ‘There’ as in the eventual launch event? ‘There’ as metaphor for talking and listening to feedback?

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He says he doesn't want to reveal anything at the moment, but they will meet there (=GH6 announcement).

I just can not believe that there isn't a GH6 coming. There is no way it isn't on the pipeline.

They have the S series to care for now, let them sell some -few- bodies and lenses, release the new cheap-ish primes in September and finish with the firware updates, and then 2021 will be m43 time! 

The m43 cameras make the sales and bring revenue to the company, there is an Olympus user base that part of it will go to Panasonic the next couple of years (Olympus has a strong m43 user base with a lot of expensive lenses), especially if there is a higher resolution sensor with GH5S ISO capabilities, that will bring m43 closer to larger formats.

Pricing is another issue though, we see FF go for 1200-1400$ right now, maybe that is a turning point. If they can not beat those prices, maybe there is no point in offering m43 video workhorses and put out mediocre cameras just for the existing user base and just increase slightly the resolution.

1999€ GH6 will be a hard hard sell these days, except if brings amazing innovation.

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I think I'd probably prefer to buy a €2000 GH6 and continue to use my compatible glass than spend €2000 on an S5 and have to faff about with lens options from scratch.

I'm almost perfectly happy with EF glass and a Speedbooster XL which makes the 2x crop of M43 a 1.28x instead. That is a very sweet spot if you need to go wide or if you need narrow DOF. Then if I need reach or more DOF I can swap that out for a non-speedboosted adapter. This makes for a very versatile system.

 

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What wee need basicly is a GH6 with

- New better sensor (DR, lowlight) 

- PDAF

- 10 bit 4k120 and 6k60

If this would happen it be enough for me to switch and not look at other FF cameras for next 3-4 years. 

Than Panasonic could add build-in ND, big 5 inch screen, bigger S35 sensor, BRAW and etc, to make it a killer proposition. 

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