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A_Urquhart

Are cameras without IBIS and AF useless for shooting video in 2018?

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I’ve been saying this for a while now. The DSLR Revolution was ruined by “filmmakers” using the equipment as if they are on a Hollywood set.

It’s been said ad nauseum... different tools for different jobs. I have a film idea I am fleshing out that is entirely static shots... so of course I’ll use sticks for that project. The film after that will be a found footage movie... I’ll probably use a camcorder with OIS turned on, or a camera with IBIS and you can be damned sure I will use Sony’s PDAF or Canon DPAF.

For the film I’m working on now, I decided to shoot handheld with just my camera and a strap, for some of the reasons Kye mentioned, but also to get in and get the shot. I’m relying on Canon IS and it is serving me well. With dialogue scenes, I’ll put the camera on sticks or use my monopod because I don’t want any movement while rack focusing. But I will say that I would love to have DPAF for tracking shots and for touch focus. I’m getting by without it, with a few misses here and there but it’s doable. 

I think webrunner’s point is valid though. I’m just a hobbyist, so I have the time to do more takes until I nail the focus or nail it enough that I can cut away in the edit. But if I was a videographer that gets paid to shoot events... without a doubt I would get a Canon or a Sony... time is money... or I’d get a camera with IBIS for the same reasons. 

Obviously this is a post born from the P4K thread and although I understand the OP’s sentiment, the problem with the P4K, which isn’t the P4K’s fault... even though the front record button is slightly misleading to the vlogger crowd, is that a lot of videographers feel they need the specs of a cinema camera to shoot a talking head video or an event and it’s those people who webrunner is referring to regarding the benefits of IBIS or AF.

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Well Like has been said Everybody on here is right. It is what their needs are at the time. And what they are secure using or not using. I just always have wanted to advance as tech advances. it has made our lives better, at least in the short run in all aspects of life. So I am embracing anything that makes taking, making video easier. YMMV. And at my age my eye, my hands aren't what they used to be. SO I need all the help I can get. 😀

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The real question is "Can we use techs like autofocus or IBIS on a film set ?"

I live in France and I can tell you that many people are very conservative about that. They say that you can't use AF because movies are only made with cameras which have PL mount with manual PL glasses so for them it is literally impossible to use AF. Even worse, many people think it is forbidden!

There are many exemples of great movies made with DSLRs and photo glasses. If AF works why don't use it on appropriate situations? If IBIS is relevant on some case why don't use it? When I said to some peole it was a pity that P4K lacks AF and IBIS they replied "it is a cinema camera so it is normal if there is no AF and IBIS"... wow... It is time to break the old rules!

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1 hour ago, Yehouda said:

The real question is "Can we use techs like autofocus or IBIS on a film set ?"

I live in France and I can tell you that many people are very conservative about that. They say that you can't use AF because movies are only made with cameras which have PL mount with manual PL glasses so for them it is literally impossible to use AF. Even worse, many people think it is forbidden!

There are many exemples of great movies made with DSLRs and photo glasses. If AF works why don't use it on appropriate situations? If IBIS is relevant on some case why don't use it? When I said to some peole it was a pity that P4K lacks AF and IBIS they replied "it is a cinema camera so it is normal if there is no AF and IBIS"... wow... It is time to break the old rules!

I guess that would be the question if everyone shot on a film set.  Which is part of the reason for these discussions - old timers who assume you're shooting on a set and can control the lighting and whatever, and then the unwashed rabble that have barged their way into the industry and film in their homes, parks, in the street, doing so in many cases with no plan, no control over the settings, perhaps no knowledge of what the settings mean, and unless they have a floppy screen they even film without even looking.  

It's no wonder people don't understand why some features they don't need would be useful to someone else.

I agree that it's time to break the old rules.  We're getting there.  If the current trends continue, the only step required in making a great video will be saying "Hey Siri, can you make a cinematic film of Spot playing with his ball in the backyard, and make it have happy music" and then just stand back and watch as the drones all spring to life, film from all the angles with AI-Dog-eyeAF, then dock and download the footage where Siri will edit and grade it, and then ask you where she should upload the video.

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One of the reasons I really like the A7 iii is because it has IBIS but it's shit :) it's only just strong enough to get rid of hand jitters, so the footage maintains the handheld feeling. On other cameras such as the Panasonics it just looks floaty, and of course it doesn't know when you're actually wanting to move the camera so it plays catch up, such sometimes leads to warping

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Hello Kye, for me the entire world is a film set 😁 I am agree, new techs must serve creativity not replace it. By the way, A.I. will never replace human mind, we only talk about techs which can make our lives easyer on set.

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Are they essential? No of course but IBIS and AF are like autoexposure functionality - as long as you can switch them off when you want full control then why wouldn't you have it if you could and have the best of both worlds?

A lot of people, myself included, just want the option of a helping hand when they need it and its far, far easier to use an ON/OFF switch than try and build that additional functionality on yourself with gimbals and focus systems.

Obviously, the only way to fully illustrate this is through the medium of hedgehogs.

This is what it looks like to most people when they switch on a camera that has those features and want to grab some shots

biddy-cute-hedgehog-adventures-FI.jpg.f364b6edc30f4780a9e75a62a891510c.jpg

And this is what greets then when they switch on a cinema camera

505e15aa36317.jpg.22259322ed395d504f9b4347c5733669.jpg

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I shoot events on Sony a6500 with adapted glass most of the times. IBIS on the a6500 is bad in comparison to the GH5 but its fundamental to get any handheld out of it. 
I also use AFC with a 35mm sony lens for gimbal shots.
If I was to buy a new camera in 2018, IBIS and AF are a must have for the kind of shooting I do.

However, I can easily understand that other kinds of projects don't need IBIS or AF 

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They're just another tool set, aren't they?

I've used monopods a lot for event work and other fast moving stuff. They are absolutely great, although I find some of the claims about them on this thread a bit of an exaggeration. Specifically there's almost always a bit of sway going on with them that distinguishes them from tripod shots. Also, the noise of the latches used to adjust height on my manfrotto monopod is sometimes problematic - not so much for ruining a shot, as for distracting the subjects and drawing attention to myself.

On a very small number of occasions (coincidentally, I plan on doing so later today!) - I pull out my little GX80 and go IBIS handheld. It's a really good go-to, which means that I can pack light, be unobtrusive, move around swiftly, and get static shots that are equal in steadiness to a monopod.  

I say static shots - for tracking shots I find the movement quite unpredictable with IBIS, so I don't really use it in that way.

So, yeah - a great new tool, that is going to compliment rather than replace the old methods.

I feel similarly about AF. I'm all manual focus and have never had a camera with reliable AF for video. But there are certainly occasions when it would be useful.

It would be ridiculous to say that either tool was suddenly 'necessary' though.

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3 hours ago, nigelbb said:

AF & stabilisation were features of "proper" camcorders before we all started shooting video with DSLRs. My Canon XH A1s had great IS & AF. It was quite a shock to focusing manually on the Canon 5D2.

Yup, even if you read the earliest product overviews from Canon cameras with DPAF, it explains that DPAF offers AF more similar to a camcorder.

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5 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

They're just another tool set, aren't they?

I've used monopods a lot for event work and other fast moving stuff. They are absolutely great, although I find some of the claims about them on this thread a bit of an exaggeration. Specifically there's almost always a bit of sway going on with them that distinguishes them from tripod shots. Also, the noise of the latches used to adjust height on my manfrotto monopod is sometimes problematic - not so much for ruining a shot, as for distracting the subjects and drawing attention to myself.

On a very small number of occasions (coincidentally, I plan on doing so later today!) - I pull out my little GX80 and go IBIS handheld. It's a really good go-to, which means that I can pack light, be unobtrusive, move around swiftly, and get static shots that are equal in steadiness to a monopod.  

I say static shots - for tracking shots I find the movement quite unpredictable with IBIS, so I don't really use it in that way.

So, yeah - a great new tool, that is going to compliment rather than replace the old methods.

I feel similarly about AF. I'm all manual focus and have never had a camera with reliable AF for video. But there are certainly occasions when it would be useful.

It would be ridiculous to say that either tool was suddenly 'necessary' though.

Yeah I have two good monopods and the times where they really work out on the video side is about zilch! Sure on the Photo side, but you might as well leave them at home for video. And the ones with legs, ain't no way you are just going to even bend over to look in your camera bag with a video rig hanging off of it. Impossible to pan even with a Fluid Head on it. Jerky as hell on average. Sure you can luck out once in awhile with one, but why bother. Just too limiting.

You have to have one hell of a good, heavy tripod to get video stuff to work. Like a Monopod is going to work like a charm. Yeah maybe leaning back against a concrete wall holding one, but how often that going happen LoL. And you are allowed to just bring the legs together on a real tripod and use it as a pretend Monopod.

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Well I have had good useable results with a monopod, but it's closer to a hand-held look than a rock-steady locked-off tripod look. Sometimes that energy works well with fast-moving event or doc footage. I've never had any complaints.

Before I got the tripod I did, for a brief period of time, use to use a single leg of a tripod as a makeshift monopod, but that's not very good for the health of the locking mechanisms.

It's true that you can't really pan or tile very easily with them though. You can do some interesting faux slider movements though, that sometimes work well.

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On 10/17/2018 at 11:54 PM, A_Urquhart said:

You have it wrong Andrew. How would you like to prove it so we can move on?

Just to clarify, I started this topic and am asking this question because in another thread it was suggested by someone that in this day and age, a camera without IBIS and AF is useless out of the box.

Who was the poster BTW?

Because with the current level of technology we have, IBIS and AF makes as much sense as your thread and discussion. I wouldn't consider anyone to be serious including yourself inferring such silly statement though ; )

Natively at my own, we're used to say where the trouble is: trousers' fault or the arse, to be honest...? : D

When people lack to add context to favor the proof by assertion up to the fallacy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_stone  

 

On 10/18/2018 at 3:19 AM, A_Urquhart said:

I agree, but it is based on a ridiculous statement which many seem to agree with. I'm just interested to know if this is the way things are going? People are too lazy to carry a tripod or monopod and too lazy to focus the camera but then use the term 'not cinematic' when judging a cameras image. Kinda strange combo to me.

Nothing about laziness, even though lazy filmmaking is up for ages. Hollywood blockbusters audience to begin with.

It is more related to one-shooter-show, hybrids and digital can afford. Small and lightweight setups where you can handle ideas rather than targets on budget, that is, a sort of continuation of the new wave movements some decades later.

Antonioni would have loved it. I personally heard Tonino Guerra himself to label these small devices as the sunny future of filmmaking.

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5 hours ago, Mmmbeats said:

Well I have had good useable results with a monopod, but it's closer to a hand-held look than a rock-steady locked-off tripod look. Sometimes that energy works well with fast-moving event or doc footage. I've never had any complaints.

Before I got the tripod I did, for a brief period of time, use to use a single leg of a tripod as a makeshift monopod, but that's not very good for the health of the locking mechanisms.

It's true that you can't really pan or tile very easily with them though. You can do some interesting faux slider movements though, that sometimes work well.

That a slider look can be pretty neat. It is pretty good doing that.

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People should tend to stop seeing the world B&W. Fits only (good) photography... LOL Some other beef to annoy me is when people don't let to themselves the right of sharing the other side's angle.

In some other words:

...it is not allowed to the other side to have the same standpoint we seem to already have taken exclusively treated but in a condescending manner.

Pathetic to say the least. The world is free for everyone, like the sun when it rises. 

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On 10/17/2018 at 9:15 PM, kye said:

I agree with most of the above, but the thinking is wrong.

Is super slow-motion required in 2018?  Not if you're shooting a doco, but yes if you're shooting a hair or shampoo commercial.
Is IBIS required in 2018? Not if you have the time, space and permission to take a stabiliser of some kind and set it up, yes if you're shooting in situations where a tripod/monopod/shoulder-rig/gimbal/etc isn't allowed or isn't practical.
Is 4K required in 2018? Not if you're shooting for a client that doesn't mandate it, yes if they do (eg, Netflix).
Is RAW required in 2018?  Not if the requirements of your scene will be sufficiently captured in a more compressed coded, yes if you need the flexibility or resolution in post (eg, green screening)
Is AF required in 2018? Not if you have the ability to manually focus sufficiently on set to track the subject in your images, yes if you don't.
Is extreme high ISO performance required in 2018?  Not if you are shooting a bright enough subject, or have the ability to light them sufficiently, yes if neither of these is true.

Anyone can ask the question of ANY parameter within photography and find examples of both yes and no, depending on the project.

ANY DISCUSSION OF REQUIREMENTS BEGINS WITH THE CONTENT TO BE CREATED.  CAMERAS ARE TOOLS FOR A JOB.  EACH JOB IS DIFFERENT.

Anyone who thinks they can generalise is too stupid to understand that other people shoot different projects, using different techniques, in different circumstances.

Great post! 

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On 10/19/2018 at 7:27 PM, Mmmbeats said:

Specifically there's almost always a bit of sway going on with them that distinguishes them from tripod shots

Monopods are no replacement for a tripod. They can definitely be a replacement for IBIS though while still giving you a slight handheld look with a little bit of natural motion to the shot.

 

On 10/20/2018 at 5:09 AM, Mmmbeats said:

Well I have had good useable results with a monopod, but it's closer to a hand-held look than a rock-steady locked-off tripod look

Exactly. as above.

 

On 10/20/2018 at 12:40 AM, webrunner5 said:

Yeah I have two good monopods and the times where they really work out on the video side is about zilch

 

On 10/20/2018 at 5:09 AM, Mmmbeats said:

It's true that you can't really pan or tile very easily with them though

 Really don't know what you are doing wrong. Do your monopods have the three feet at the bottom that tilt and a fluid head? If so, these are extremely versatile for video.

 

On 10/20/2018 at 12:05 PM, Emanuel said:

People should tend to stop seeing the world B&W. Fits only (good) photography... LOL Some other beef to annoy me is when people don't let to themselves the right of sharing the other side's angle.

Exactly, insisting that a camera without IBIS or AF is unusable is just wrong.

 

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