Are cameras without IBIS and AF useless for shooting video in 2018?

[kye]

1 minute ago, A_Urquhart said:

I agree, but it is based on a ridiculous statement which many seems to agree with. I'm just interested to know if this is the way things are going. People are too lazy to carry a tripod or monopod and too lazy to focus the camera but then use the term 'not cinematic' when judging a cameras image. Kinda strange to me.

Kye's points are also perfectly valid, different tools for different jobs but people in discussions expect a camera to do everything perfectly and have every feature under the sun otherwise it's not workable. 

I just think people are getting lazy. Like slowmo, it's easy to shoot nice looking slowmo so people are getting lazy and shooting everything in slowmo......

You don't get it.

Please explain to me how I am being lazy in the below situation, and how if I worked harder, I would be able to get a slider shot without bars in the foreground if I had more equipment.

By using my IS and shooting hand-held I was able to get a slider shot, something that was appropriate for the film I was making.

I guess you are too stupid to understand that situations like this exist, and that other people shoot in them.

[A_Urquhart]

30 minutes ago, kye said:

You don't get it.

Please explain to me how I am being lazy in the below situation, and how if I worked harder, I would be able to get a slider shot without bars in the foreground if I had more equipment.

By using my IS and shooting hand-held I was able to get a slider shot, something that was appropriate for the film I was making.

I guess you are too stupid to understand that situations like this exist, and that other people shoot in them.

Calm down Kye I wasn't calling you lazy if that is what has made you aggressive. I was talking in a general term.

You could have shot that shot differently, who knows, it could have turned out better, or worse. I could list a few different ways you could have got that shot or something very similar without IBIS but that's not the point of the thread. Sometimes limitations cause us to think more creatively.

  Was this a slider shot? It doesn't look like it....but if it was and you pulled it off smoothly, well done.

What I wall say is that while no features on your list is essential to everyone, there are some that are a lot harder to workaround if you don't have them. Ive never had a director or producer say that my camera had to have IBIS or AF, whereas I have had them request we shoot 4K, or 50p or that it had to be a 10bit codec. If your camera can't do it, it's hard to work around that. No not everyone works professionally or on demanding productions, but then Im not the one making black and white statements that a camera is unusable if it doesn't have IBIS or AF.  

Im not here to pick on individual shots, yes IBIS and AF can be useful. I just don't think that a camera without them is unusable and the notion that it is kinda perplexes me hence the thread. Let's not forget that you can add stabilisation via a lens too. Just because it's not in the body, doesn't mean its a bad camera. X-T3, GH5's will still shoot great images and be used successfully by many. 

33 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Hell even the Canon C700 has DPAF and face detection. Times are changing even for Cine cameras..

My FS700 had face detection too. I agree, it's nice to have if implemented well but no DP using a cine camera (as you are referring too) is going to say that an Alexa, Red, F5, Varicam etc are "useless"

[webrunner5]

25 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Calm down Kye I wasn't calling you lazy if that is what has made you aggressive. 

You could have shot that shot differently, who knows, it could have turned out better, or worse. Sometimes limitations cause us to think more creatively, kinda like limiting yourself to primes or even one prime for street photography.  No it's not for everyone but there are ways around it. In the photo above, you could have got a monopod through the bars in the same way you have the camera held there. Was this a slider shot? It doesn't look like it....but if it was and you pulled it off smoothly, well done.

What I wall say is that while no features on your list is essential to everyone, there are some that are a lot harder to workaround if you don't have them. Ive never had a director or producer say that my camera had to have IBIS or AF, whereas I have had them request we shoot 4K, or 50p or that it had to be a 10bit codec. If your camera can't do it, it's hard to work around that. No not everyone works professionally or on demanding productions, but then Im not the one making black and white statements that a camera is unusable if it doesn't have IBIS or AF.  

Im not here to pick on individual shots, yes IBIS and AF can be useful. I just don't think that a camera without them is unusable.

My FS700 had face detection too. I agree, it's nice to have if implemented will but no DP using a cine camera (as you are referring too) is going to say that an Alexa, Red etc are "useless"

Those cameras are pretty useless without a crew at your side. The average person is not going to do 15 takes to get a shot. This site is mostly for people that are not rich or even super skilled to be honest. I never grew up with this AF or IBIS. But a person has to be crazy not to utilize it at times. So buying a camera that you know you are going to have to buy a pretty expensive Gimbal because of it's size, weight because it has no IBIS, and having no continuous AF and using 0.95 lenses seems sort of crazy to me. So yeah I think on average people are going to find out the PK4 at times is pretty useless to get the footage they want.

I have owned CIne cameras, ENG cameras, and they, unless you are skilled as hell, and they are big cameras that are easier to balance compared to a PK4, it is going to be a bitch to get good stuff out of it unless you throw some pretty good money into it, or have it on sticks and have talented actors that can hit a mark. This stuff is hard enough to do with every tool in the book let alone a camera that is basic as hell.

Heck yes you can make a full blown feature movie with it, but you will bust your ass to make it happen, and have to have extra tools to help it along. And that All costs money, lots of it. You would have to live in a dreamworld to think you are just going to take this thing out of the box and make killer shit with it buck naked.

[A_Urquhart]

5 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Those cameras are pretty useless without a crew at your side. The average person is not going to do 15 takes to get a shot. This site is mostly for people that are not rich or even super skilled to be honest. I never grew up with this AF or IBIS. But a person has to be crazy not to utilize it at times. So buying a camera that you know you are going to have to buy a pretty expensive Gimbal because of it's size, weight because it has no IBIS, and having no continuous AF and using 0.95 lenses seems sort of crazy to me. So yeah I think on average people are going to find out the PK4 at times is pretty useless to get the footage they want.

I have owned CIne cameras, ENG cameras, and they, unless you are skilled as hell, and they are big cameras that are easier to balance compared to a PK4, it is going to be a bitch to get good stuff out of it unless you throw some pretty good money into it, or have it on sticks and have talented actors that can hit a mark. This stuff is hard enough to do with every tool in the book let alone a camera that is basic as hell.

Heck yes you can make a full blown feature movie with it, but you will bust your ass to make it happen, and have to have extra tools to help it along. And that All costs money, lots of it.

 Just because a camera doesn't have AF doesn't mean you need a focus Puller. Operators pull focus themselves all the time.

This thread is not Cine camera vs Mirrorless, you brought up the C700 for some reason.

BTW, which lens are you using to get f0.95 and AF?

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

 Just because a camera doesn't have AF doesn't mean you need a focus Puller either. Operators pull focus themselves all the time.

BTW, which lens are you using to get f0.95 and AF?

Ever heard of this new fangled thing called a Speedboster? I never said a lens like that would AF. I said crazy people will be using a lens like that on a camera with No Continuous AF.

[A_Urquhart]

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Ever heard of this new fangled thing called a Speedboster?

Fair enough. Got any examples of how accurate and smooth the AF is when shooting at 0.95 on a lens with speed booster? I'm genuinely interested to see it in action.

[kye]

36 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Calm down Kye I wasn't calling you lazy if that is what has made you aggressive. I was talking in a general term.

If you're going to talk "general term" then you should be specific with your language - try saying things like "Most people are too lazy to carry a tripod or monopod" instead of saying "People are too lazy to carry a tripod or monopod".  I tend to think of myself as a person, so naturally I included myself in the statement you made, which was about "people" and not "most people".

I'm personally pretty sick of other people on this forum telling me what I do and don't need on my shoots based upon what they do and don't need on theirs.  If you're going to come in and use language that applies to "people" without acknowledging that some people / situations / projects don't fit your statements, then yeah, you're going to piss me off (and look like an arrogant asshole to everyone who has ever had needs that were outside your sweeping statements).

36 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

I could list a few different ways you could have got that shot or something very similar without IBIS but that's not the point of the thread.

The phrase "IBIS" is literally in the title of this thread.  I would appreciate you listing a few ways for me to get a slider shot in that situation.

Either I learn something, or you learn something.  Either way I hold you accountable for your sweeping and half-baked statements.  I write my posts with consideration and admit when I'm wrong, I'd encourage you to do the same.

36 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Sometimes limitations cause us to think more creatively.

I love it when people trot this old chestnut.  It's a crutch.  Sometimes the only tool for the job is the only tool for the job.

36 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

but then Im not the one making black and white statements that a camera is unusable if it doesn't have IBIS or AF.  

No, but you are the one making black and white statements about "People are too lazy to carry a tripod or monopod".

36 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Im not here to pick on individual shots, yes IBIS and AF can be useful. I just don't think that a camera without them is unusable and the notion that it is kinda perplexes me hence the thread. 

I get it, there's lots of hyperbole and polarised thinking, but unfortunately you've offered up some here as well.  This seems to be a case of "he that dost protest too much".

[webrunner5]

19 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Fair enough. Got any examples of how accurate and smooth the AF is when shooting at 0.95 on a lens with speed booster? I'm genuinely interested to see it in action.

It won't be that is the point. And you are not going to do it by hand either by yourself on any thing that moves faster than a turtle with any consistency.

There is going to be a Lot of people buying this PK4 that have never owned or used a CIne camera, or even owned a Mirrorless camera in their life. It is not only us on here that is going to buy the thing. And there is going to be a ton of ugly ass shots and unhappy people using it. So I am not blaming BMD for it not having AF or IBIS, hell they are giving it away the way it is. But I think most buyers are not going to end up happy campers in the short run, maybe long run because it doesn't have AF and IBIS..It is an odd duck camera for a few people willing to put up with it's shortcoming in this day and age compared to the competition.  And yeah the Fuji X-T3 is stiff competition. It's not a Cine camera per say but it is a pretty damn serious machine none the less that fits more people's needs than a PK4 that is for sure.

You can do stuff with jst about anything. I have owned at least 8 different View Cameras of all sizes. And they are about as basic as you can get. No AF or IBIS on those babies. But they are a bitch to not screw up something at the wrong time. As simple as they are they a complex as hell. But yeah they produce some outputs that are just breathtaking. They are sort of like this PK4, looks easy but it is not.

[TurboRat]

If you're shooting events, travel videos ,you don't want to be the guy who always lugs around his monopod or tripod. IBIS is not essential but try walking around and shooting places without IBIS. I've shot with cameras without it and with only lens OIS and I feel like the shakiness is too distracting to show to clients, friends, and family. And I wan't to be inconspicuous when I'm in a crowd and not to be the guy lugging around a monopod, tripod, gimbal, lens etc. I feel like people usually don't act natural in front of the camera - sometimes they hide their faces, look directly at the videographer, avert their gaze, etc that I can't get the shots that I want. Again, it always depends on the situation, and you can turn it on or off on most cameras with IBIS if you don't want it

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, TurboRat said:

If you're shooting events, travel videos ,you don't want to be the guy who always lugs around his monopod or tripod. IBIS is not essential but try walking around and shooting places without IBIS. I've shot with cameras without it and with only lens OIS and I feel like the shakiness is too distracting to show to clients, friends, and family. And I wan't to be inconspicuous when I'm in a crowd and not to be the guy lugging around a monopod, tripod, gimbal, lens etc. I feel like people usually don't act natural in front of the camera - sometimes they hide their faces, look directly at the videographer, avert their gaze, etc that I can't get the shots that I want. Again, it always depends on the situation, and you can turn it on or off on most cameras with IBIS if you don't want it

And I always find it pretty crazy that just about anyone will let you take a picture of them with a Cellphone. That is one reason they are so popular. Hey and guess what it works. IBIS, OIS or what ever it is and AF.

[A_Urquhart]

@kye

 

In relation to @thebrothersthree comment about the title of this thread, I replied with this: 

1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

I agree, but it is based on a ridiculous statement which many seem to agree with. I'm just interested to know if this is the way things are going? People are too lazy to carry a tripod or monopod and too lazy to focus the camera but then use the term 'not cinematic' when judging a cameras image. Kinda strange combo to me.

Kye's points are also perfectly valid, different tools for different jobs but people in discussions expect a camera to do everything perfectly and have every feature under the sun otherwise it's not workable. 

As you can see, in context, I used the word 'many' in "many seem to agree". Also, "is this the way things are going" is also a fairly general term. How did you take this so personally? If you did, I have no qualms in apologising so, I'm sorry if you felt personally attacked. 

My question was, are people who expect 'cinematic' images really too lazy to focus a camera or use some kind of support because these contribute to the 'cinematic' look just as much as IQ (and lighting). 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, kye said:

The phrase "IBIS" is literally in the title of this thread.  I would appreciate you listing a few ways for me to get a slider shot in that situation.

Either I learn something, or you learn something.  Either way I hold you accountable for your sweeping and half-baked statements.  I write my posts with consideration and admit when I'm wrong, I'd encourage you to do the same.

I mean the point of this thread is not to critique any individual shot and tell you how you could have achieved similar without IBIS. If you do want personal critique, PM me and I'll happily give you some other ideas if you so wish.

35 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

There is going to be a Lot of people buying this PK4 that have never owned or used a CIne camera, or even owned a Mirrorless camera in their life. It is not only us on here that is going to buy the thing.

Exactly, there will be a lot of users here that come to this site for information on purchasing a camera who might be new to the whole game. Your advice that a particular camera is 'useless' because it doesn't have AF or IBIS gives false information in two ways. It suggests that you can't shoot good images unless you have both those features and it suggests that those two features will ensure that all your footage comes out rock solid and sharp.

I'm here to provide some context in that if you want to really use a cinema camera (or even mirrorless camera) well, and get great shots out of it, be prepared to use a monopod/ tripod or similar and be prepared to learn how to focus manually if you really want to further your skills. While AF is great, it can hunt around if it can't decide what to focus on and no one wants to see AF hunt in a 'cinematic' video. 

[webrunner5]

I think you have been using your Red to long. Sony Face detect, Canon DPAF, Olympus IBIS is all pretty amazingly good most of the time and it is getting better by the week, not by the year.. And nothing you are going to do manually is ever going to work right all the time either. If that was the case one take and we all go home.

The trend, whether you like it or not is to Not be tied to a Tripod or a Monopod. I find slider shots to be nauseating as hell anymore. Sort of like all these Drone shots. Looks hokey as hell. Been there done that stuff. Locked off shots, gee only been about 50 million of them. I want to see old as I am new content, stuff that looks like it looks to me walking, running, well I don't do that anymore, but I want to see stuff as real life not always the way it was. Because the way it was was because there was no AF, No IBIS. Lot of Was's there, is that is word? You get my point. This is 2018 not 1998. Why not take advantage of tech. It makes stuff newer, more modern even if in the long run it might suck, at least the hell it looks different than the same old tired predictable stuff.

[A_Urquhart]

3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I think you have been using your Red to long. Sony Face detect, Canon DPAF, Olympus IBIS is all pretty amazingly good most of the time and it is getting better by the week, not by the year.. And nothing you are going to do manually is ever going to work right all the time either. If that was the case one take and we all go home.

The trend, whether you like it or not is to Not be tied to a Tripod or a Monopod. I find slider shots to be nauseating as hell anymore. Sort of like all these Drone shots. Looks hokey as hell. Been there done that stuff. Locked off shots, gee only been about 50 million of them. I want to see old as I am new content, stuff that looks like it looks to me walking, running, well I don't do that anymore, but I want to see stuff as real life not always the way it was. Because the way it was was because there was no AF, No IBIS. Lot of Was's there, is that is word? You get my point. This is 2018 not 1998. Why not take advantage of tech. It makes stuff newer, more modern even if in the long run it might suck, at least the hell it looks different.

Cool, leave all the shots with terrible AF hunt in your film because it's new and looks different. OKaaaay! ?

[kye]

17 minutes ago, TurboRat said:

If you're shooting events, travel videos ,you don't want to be the guy who always lugs around his monopod or tripod. IBIS is not essential but try walking around and shooting places without IBIS. I've shot with cameras without it and with only lens OIS and I feel like the shakiness is too distracting to show to clients, friends, and family. And I wan't to be inconspicuous when I'm in a crowd and not to be the guy lugging around a monopod, tripod, gimbal, lens etc. I feel like people usually don't act natural in front of the camera - sometimes they hide their faces, look directly at the videographer, avert their gaze, etc that I can't get the shots that I want. Again, it always depends on the situation, and you can turn it on or off on most cameras with IBIS if you don't want it

That guy is me (in shooting travel videos anyway) and after not getting the stabilisation I wanted in some shots I bought a Gorillapod 5K (the largest one) and a phone gimbal for wide shots, but ended up not taking them out anywhere as my camera setup was already large enough for people to at funny around me, even in tourist spots.  At one location I noticed a guy with a tiny camcorder and a monopod and geez, the guy might have had a camera the size of a kit lens but the monopod made him stand out like nothing else!

I try and get shots of travel legs to use as scene change shots and I normally just get them with my iPhone, but even that attracts attention in train stations and the like, with people staring at the camera and making me wonder how much attention I'm getting from security and the like.

12 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

And I always find it pretty crazy that just about anyone will let you take a picture of them with a Cellphone. That is one reason they are so popular. Hey and guess what it works. IBIS, OIS or what ever it is and AF.

I go to a lot of spots where that's not even true anymore, but that's probably just coincidence.  IIRC @jonpais has said that in Vietnam people don't care, so I guess it varies from place to place.  Plus the new challenge of grown men with cameras around kids being automatically judged means that I basically can't record anywhere that people swim, many angles in parks, etc.

9 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

@kye As you can see, in context, I used the word 'many' in "many seem to agree". Also, "is this the way things are going" is also a fairly general term. How did you take this so personally? If you did, I have no qualms in apologising so, I'm sorry if you felt personally attacked. 

Thanks, but I read that as many people tend to agree that all people are too lazy.  I admire that you're willing to put in effort into your posts, but you're not quite there in getting across what you mean.  This is a common problem because people assume that everyone reading their messages has the same background, context, tastes, clients, or mood as they do, which obviously is a barrier to proper communication.

20 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

@kye My question was, are people who expect 'cinematic' images really too lazy to focus a camera or use some kind of support because these contribute to the 'cinematic' look just as much as IQ (and lighting). 

I think being "cinematic" is a fad, and that most people who attempt it aren't aware of the technical aspects that go into it.  So basically it's a lack of education.  Like most people who buy and expensive DSLR and expect that professional looking images will just collect on the memory card if they point the camera in the general direction of the subject and spray-and-pray on full-auto.

The other huge aspect of these discussions is that new camera features enable new genres of film-making.  There are people who earn a living shooting skydiving films.  If someone wanted to make those 100 years ago it might not have been possible because the cameras were too heavy, or whatever, and there they would have been jumping up and down about how light-weight cameras are critical, and all the people who made films on tripods at locations where trucks could drive to would have been saying "film-makers are so lazy right now".

Anyone who has a camera more modern than an original Bolex with 1950's quality film stock is:

• too cheap to pay for film,
• too lazy to get film developed,
• too impatient to wait for it to be developed and sent back,
• too fancy to use basic edits,
• too amateurish to sync sound in post,
• too lazy to get lighting to ensure the DR isn't too wide,
• too fake to write a good story without relying on VFX, green screens, or, you-know, COLOUR.
• etc etc..

The above list looks completely ridiculous to most of us now because we've come to see the benefits of things like in-camera audio, and the flexibility (and cost savings) of higher DR cameras, but when someone who makes tripod films with sets and controlled lighting says that someone making wedding films, adventure films, travel films, doesn't need the new features, then that's EXACTLY what they sound like to the people who use and value those features.

[webrunner5]

14 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Cool, leave all the shots with terrible AF hunt in your film because it's new and looks different. OKaaaay! ?

You are not going to win this fight on this thread.Hell am 71 years old, you act like you are F ing 101. What you suggest is just old hat. Get with the god damn show. We are tired of the Oh it is like this or it is shit stuff. Who gives a rats ass if it it a bit out of focus, you see perfect all the time, who cares if it is jumpy at times, you fly like a Gimbal when you walk? I sure as hell don't. So goofy stuff in reality looks like real life. What a Lovely concept. Hey is isn't perfect. Who cares. We aren't making the 10 Commandments movie over again. Perfection sucks, ain't no fun at all.

You are preaching to the wrong Choir as they say one here. 95% of the people on here don't make a dime doing this stuff here. It is a Hobby, for fun, family, memories. Most are not sweating bullets if it is not perfect. Sure maybe you are. I have not even opened my camera cases in 2 months. Big deal. I have a life to live that comes above it right now.

[A_Urquhart]

3 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yo are not going to win this fight on this thread.Hell am 71 years old, you act like you are F ing 101. What you suggest is just old hat. Get with the god damn show. We are tired of the Oh it is like this or it is shit stuff. Who gives a rats ass if it it a bit out of focus, you see perfect all the time, who cares if it is jumpy at times, you fly like a Gimbal when you walk? I sure as hell don't. So goofy stuff in reality looks like real life. What a Lovely concept. Hey is isn't perfect. Who cares. We aren't making the 10 Commandments movie over again. Perfection sucks, ain't no fun at all.

You're the one making the black and white statements that cameras are 'unusable' not me!  Your the one saying that manually focusing is not precise enough, not me. 

I'm not here to win anything, if anyone thinks you can win an argument on the internet they are kidding themselves. 

[webrunner5]

Your are the one that started this goofy ass thread. Not me LoL.

[A_Urquhart]

16 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Your are the one that started this goofy ass thread. Not me LoL.

Ahaha, this thread title was a statement that another 'goofy arsed' member here made. ?

I'm not here saying IBIS and AF have no place on cameras, but the opposite should also not be said.

[newfoundmass]

The cameras themselves aren't useless if they lack IBIS and decent AF but they might be useless in the hands of those that aren't able to get quality footage without those features. I suppose that's the only negative I see about those things. They've made us lazier in many ways. 

Another example is low light performance. It's nice to be able to shoot at high ISOs when you absolutely need to but a lot of people skip setting up lighting these days. 

[webrunner5]

10 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Ahaha, this thread title was a statement that another 'goofy arsed' member here made. ?

 

Touche. ?