Who would pay twice the price if the new BM Pocket 4K had Canon DPAF?

[buggz]

No.

[cantsin]

1 hour ago, DBounce said:

Samsung uses DPAF in their smartphones, so clearly some form of it is available. Granted it’s a smaller sensor, but the performance is snappy, and there is no hunting.

This is all based on patent exchange contracts between Canon, Sony and Samsung. Companies like BM likely won't have access to that technology before the patents expire.

[Kieran]

I always focus manually anyway. So for twice the price, I'd rather have two of the current BMPCC4Ks. 

[webrunner5]

9 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Well the cinema users are using manual lenses, DPAF will not work. DPAF is great for wedding and events and such, but for scripted work nope. Heck they don't need to, a wireless focus operator will give you more control and better results.

So no I would not even pay 100€ for it as I am also shooting mostly manual lenses.

So you are telling me that all the Canon C cameras that have DPAF in them you would Never buy because the have AF?? That all of the newer Canon Cine cameras are total shit because they Have AF in them. Interesting. No Pro would be caught dead with one is what you are implying..

[wolf33d]

5 hours ago, Inazuma said:

I thought they sorted it with the latest firmware?

You thought wrong. Youtube tests show it is atrocious. 

5 hours ago, Damphousse said:

 

$1295 with resolve is just too good of a price.  It is a no brainer price.  $3,500 is waaayyyyy too much.   It may be a killer price for a C200 but it is still in a different league than a BMPCC 4k.

Not so much. For me, the C200 weight and size make it a no go even at 1000$ for what I do. If BM 4K had C200 AF I would get it over any day.
Depends on your use. 

 

 

The results of the poll are interesting. Half of the people would. And when you consider that most of the people who said no is because they just use manual focus, this poll shows how much important AF is for people in video and that they are ready to pay for it. 
This is why so many vloggers pay 6K for the 1DXII, for Full Frame 4K60P with good AF. This is why people like Casey Neistat prefer shitty 1080p quality over amazing GH5 quality. Because AF in video becomes that much useful and important. 

How many manual focus stills camera sell this day VS AF stills camera? When you consider manual focusing in video is more difficult than in photo, it's not hard to see why manual focusing cameras are dead. Expect 90% of the people who said "no" to this poll to use AF in all their video in 2 years from now. 
 

[sanveer]

6 hours ago, JordanWright said:

I wouldn't be able to justify double the price for a single feature because I almost never use autofocus. However, If they released a version for only £100-200 more expensive or if they introduced some sort of upgrade, I might grab that instead for the rare occasion that I would use it.

I completely agree with this. Twice the price for great autofocus is a ripoff. $99-199 is the max that one could charge for that feature.

Double the Price should include IBIS, Dual UHS-II cards, Weather-sealing and Double/ Triple the Battery life. 

[DBounce]

I suspect most of the people that said no have not used a Canon camera with DPAF. Having this feature does not mean you have to use it, but on a gimbal it sure helps keep the weight/complexity down.

[webrunner5]

I use a lot of manual old Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etc lenses because they are Cheap. But this TechArt thingy is interesting. I think a person is crazy no to take advantage of AF in certain situations. Not every shot in a short is a Crash Zoom, or a Focus Pull where you need precision from hell.

When you get my age you are lucky to see shit. I Need AF a lot more than I ever did. And if I could afford a Canon C200, or a Canon C300 mk II I would have one for sure for the DPAF and the Color Science alone. @DBounce is a lucky person to have a C200. Envy.

[sanveer]

11 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

You thought wrong. Youtube tests show it is atrocious. 

Not so much. For me, the C200 weight and size make it a no go even at 1000$ for what I do. If BM 4K had C200 AF I would get it over any day.
Depends on your use. 

 

 

The results of the poll are interesting. Half of the people would. And when you consider that most of the people who said no is because they just use manual focus, this poll shows how much important AF is for people in video and that they are ready to pay for it. 
This is why so many vloggers pay 6K for the 1DXII, for Full Frame 4K60P with good AF. This is why people like Casey Neistat prefer shitty 1080p quality over amazing GH5 quality. Because AF in video becomes that much useful and important. 

How many manual focus stills camera sell this day VS AF stills camera? When you consider manual focusing in video is more difficult than in photo, it's not hard to see why manual focusing cameras are dead. Expect 90% of the people who said "no" to this poll to use AF in all their video in 2 years from now. 
 

Most of thise Vloggers are given Free camera by the likes of Canon and even RED. The companies get Millions in Publicity for a few hundred dollars of free cameras. 

[docmoore]

Perhaps the dividing line is cinema versus video ... 

Most cinema is scripted and staged ... so the camera operator knows the distances near and far and can practice many times the pulls prior to

the final shoot. Many follow focus wheels have stops for near and far. And manual focus on a decent 7 inch monitor with good light is very clear,

without a need for magnification.

When I am following a duck at 30 to 150 yards or a heron jumping and moving while it fishes the inshore of a slough ... all at F2 to F4 ... DPAF with tracking

helps. Or when tracking a flying bird that is not at a constant distance and is moving at high speed ...  DPAF just sorts it. Or a performer who moves while playing

with shallow DOF it is seamless. That unpredictable movement would stress even a seasoned focus puller.

Usually if the object is static ... I will zoom in to nail focus and stay in MF for the clip.

Nice to have the option ... and if AF is poor it is more of a hinderance than a help. It is why I had the GH5 for a very short time ... just not good enough.

So to turn the question a bit ... I would pay more for a 5D4 with no crop and RAW in 4K.

[Robin]

I would welcome it as a feature but wouldnt pay anymore if there was two versions of the same camera with and without. But then I very rarely use auto even for stills. Only if I need a weather sealed lens like the 35mm f2 wr on my xh1. 99% of the time I'm manual on canon FD's for stills and video.

It's more fun and keeps my manual focus skills in good shape ?

I could see how useful it would be if you like gimbals however, or had bad eye sight.

[BTM_Pix]

From my own point of view, I voted No to the specific question of would you pay twice the price of the camera rather than do I not want it at all.

I can imagine others did as well so I wouldn't take anyone voting No to be a definitive indication of their rejection of AF.

We're already taking a (considered) leap of faith buying this camera without seeing a single frame of real footage to then compound it by doubling the price for the addition of a technology that BM have no track record of implementing even if they did have access to it.

In some parallel universe where they could just flick a switch and have it implemented as well as Canon does ?

Yeah, I'd pay some extra for a bit of that certainty in performance.

But then if you look at the countless posts and debates all over the internet about AF performance, I have to say that it would throw up more problems than it solved for BM if it wasn't implemented perfectly from the get go and I'd sooner them focus (ho ho) on doing what they do best which is the image itself.

[Emanuel]

26 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

From my own point of view, I voted No to the specific question of would you pay twice the price of the camera rather than do I not want it at all.

I can imagine others did as well so I wouldn't take anyone voting No to be a definitive indication of their rejection of AF.

We're already taking a (considered) leap of faith buying this camera without seeing a single frame of real footage to then compound it by doubling the price for the addition of a technology that BM have no track record of implementing even if they did have access to it.

(...)

For a simple reason. We all know BMD IQ standard , that's why so. Isn't it, guys? ; -)

[Mokara]

It would be more than twice as much. The license fees would be such that it would not compete with existing Canon products. It would cost at least as much as the C200, and likely more.

[BTM_Pix]

21 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

For a simple reason. We all know BMD IQ standard , that's why so. Isn't it, guys? ; -)

Which is why I said it was a considered leap of faith.

Even so, they don't have an unblemished record with new cameras so its still a risk.

[kye]

12 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

TechArt making a version of their AF for MF lenses adapter for MFT would be a huge seller just for this camera alone, let alone all the other MFT cameras.

I've just ordered the E mount version so may revise this opinion if its shit  

How do these adapters work with multiple AF points and things like eye-detect AF.  Do they allow all the smart focusing modes, or just a limited AF mode like a simple centred AF point or equivalent?

9 hours ago, sanveer said:

I completely agree with this. Twice the price for great autofocus is a ripoff. $99-199 is the max that one could charge for that feature.

Double the Price should include IBIS, Dual UHS-II cards, Weather-sealing and Double/ Triple the Battery life. 

People pay a lot for 4K, and considering that a shot out of focus is basically a 240p or worse video file, I'd say that you're not understanding what is at stake.

9 hours ago, sanveer said:

Most of thise Vloggers are given Free camera by the likes of Canon and even RED. The companies get Millions in Publicity for a few hundred dollars of free cameras. 

Most of the vloggers I watch have mentioned that they bought their main cameras with their own money.  Maybe they get a second much cheaper one 'on loan' but that's the minority.  I think assuming that people are 'on the take' is easy to assume, but may not be true.

9 hours ago, docmoore said:

Perhaps the dividing line is cinema versus video ... 

Most cinema is scripted and staged ... so the camera operator knows the distances near and far and can practice many times the pulls prior to

the final shoot. Many follow focus wheels have stops for near and far. And manual focus on a decent 7 inch monitor with good light is very clear,

without a need for magnification.

When I am following a duck at 30 to 150 yards or a heron jumping and moving while it fishes the inshore of a slough ... all at F2 to F4 ... DPAF with tracking

helps. Or when tracking a flying bird that is not at a constant distance and is moving at high speed ...  DPAF just sorts it. Or a performer who moves while playing

with shallow DOF it is seamless. That unpredictable movement would stress even a seasoned focus puller.

Your point is well made and I totally agree, however there are quite a number of elitist ivory-tower snobs on here who insist that unless you're shooting in controlled lighting conditions on a set with a crew of dedicated people that you're basically not a real film-maker and you don't even deserve the soft 1080 that Canon gives you.  They don't say it explicitly, but it's behind many of the posts here.

Its been strongly implied that if I want better quality home or holiday videos then I need to: buy a cinema camera, hire a sound tech with a boom mic, learn to manually focus (including sporting events), control my DR via lighting and modifiers, use a tripod, and do multiple takes..  instead of asking for a DSLR sized camera with good IQ, reliable AF, audio recording and processing advances from this century, IBIS / OIS, and being able to enjoy myself while recording a clip.

[jonpais]

I shot my last six or seven lens tests (Veydras, Sigma 60mm f/2.8, Olympus 45mm f/1.2, Oly 75mm f/1.8...) of static subjects, pulling focus manually with a BMD Video Assist and it’s a royal PITA. 

[newfoundmass]

12 hours ago, DBounce said:

I suspect most of the people that said no have not used a Canon camera with DPAF. Having this feature does not mean you have to use it, but on a gimbal it sure helps keep the weight/complexity down.

We have, we're just not interested in paying double the price for it! 

[DBounce]

9 hours ago, jonpais said:

I shot my last six or seven lens tests (Veydras, Sigma 60mm f/2.8, Olympus 45mm f/1.2, Oly 75mm f/1.8...) of static subjects, pulling focus manually with a BMD Video Assist and it’s a royal PITA. 

Not sure why people down voted an opinion? Anywho, I agree that manual focus can slow things down. These days when I need to focus manually I use the Tilta Nucleus M... it’s great. But mostly I’m focusing manually by using the focus assist feature of the C200, or simply tapping the screen. And it’s lovely.

Just look at all the out of focus Red Raven footage out there. Auto Focus clearly helps a lot if you are a one man/woman production.

Honestly, this is a silly thread... there is no chance that BMD will add DPAF to any of their cameras... not at any price. Heck, it’s not even coming with a flip-out screen... although it’s pitched as a vlogging cam. Would good AF not be considered essential for a Vlogging camera?... so there’s that. It’s a strange camera in that regard. I feel BMD don’t have a clue who they are targeting... or what features that target audience values. I’m sure it will sell a ton... initially. Then, after launch, sales will be sparse.

 

[BTM_Pix]

10 hours ago, kye said:

How do these adapters work with multiple AF points and things like eye-detect AF.  Do they allow all the smart focusing modes, or just a limited AF mode like a simple centred AF point or equivalent?

The restricted smart mode is eye AF unless you have an A9, A7Riii or A7iii. 

It's only suitable for smaller (lighter) lenses due to the motors and it's never going to get anywhere near native AF or even in the same postal region so it isn't without it's limitations.