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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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Because it's believed to be Sony Starvis sensor and has similar specs as the new pocket 4K.  The images will surely be different, but in terms of Dynamic Range, I doubt there will be a noticeable difference.

Kinefinity has always been significantly more aggressive than Blackmagic. They were way ahead of Blackmagic in doing 4K, and they definitely had High Frame rates much earlier than Blackkmagic did, and they still can do much higher framrates than anything Blackmagic does.  Size/weight/form factor were also more aggressive compared to Blackmagic too.  In terms of images and operation, they had more fundamental issues compared to the Blackmagic cameras.  Rolling shutter was worse, their slow motion modes were full of artifacting, and their cameras have a weird monitor lag that they still haven't fixed.

 

Blackmagic was much less aggressive with their cameras and prioritized dynamic range, and color.  Two things which they are doing better than a lot of other manufacturers.  Now with the new sensors in Mavo and other cameras, dynamic range is now closing in on the dual-gain sensors that BM uses.

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8 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if they already have warehouses in a few countries full of packed up cameras ready to ship out. 

There is always the possibility they may not fulfill *all* orders at once on the first day, it might trickle at only a few hundred at a time. So they're "meeting their target date" but also many pre orders might also still have a long wait ahead. Who knows. 

1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

I say lackluster, because these days, less than 14 stops of DR doesn't cut it as a cinema camera.  So many prosumer cams (ursa mini pro, eva1, c200, fs7) offer noticeably more dynamic range.

It is funny what different people see as "prosumer" cameras. 

I might maaaaaybe classify an LS300 as "prosumer", maybe.

But a FS7?! Nope!

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I might maaaaaybe classify an LS300 as "prosumer", maybe.

But a FS7?! Nope!

You mean because the FS7 is pro and LS300 borders pro and prosumer?

While I totally agree that those cameras listed aren't really 'prosumer', it does depend on how you classify that category. If you go by price for example, then yes they're not top of the range, pro movie cameras, neither are they consumer cameras. Since they can be used for both if you wanted to though, maybe prosumer is a good category for them?

If you're making music videos and documentaries, they are the cameras pros are using, so does the way you use a camera change it's classification? If so, I semi-regularly use a GX80 in a professional setting for TV broadcast... does that make it a pro camera? Of course it doesn't.

I would generally class those cameras @Savannah Miller listed as pro, but then what would you call an Arri? Maybe also pro, but for a different purpose? Pro mkii ?

 

 

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I bought a $50 hammer to build a cabin. It didn't make my hammering any better, I still managed to hammer my thumb just as much as I did with a $10 hammer. It is a nice hammer though, people see it and they stop and say "that's a great hammer you've got there". Do you think anyone who stays at the cabin gives a shit whether I built it with the $50 hammer or a $10 hammer?

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Well then why are we here discussing cameras? If nobody cares what tools you're using, grab a 550d to shoot stuff and edit it on a $200 laptop.

You're right, tools don't make you a better workman, but they can get you more inspired and change how you work. The hammer analogy is much too simple, the way you hit the nail (or your thumb) never changes, but the way you encode the footage, light your scene and basically use your camera definitely does change depending on which one you're using.

My previous point was, there's no clear definition of consumer - prosumer - pro, but whats more important is how you use each camera and what you're using them for. EG a 'consumer' GX80 in a professional broadcast setting doesn't change that it's a 'consumer' camera. Like you say, the audience don't care what camera I shoot with, and in those settings, the GX80 fits the bill.

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Well the words "professional", "consumer",  "prosumer" are kinda empty words for me. Words like "High End", "Entry level", "mid market" have more value in my eye. I mean working as a "professional" only means that he is earning money with it, and not the level of quality. There are "professionals" out there shooting with 550D, and professionals shooting with Arri Alexa SXT, where I would state the one is "entry level", and the other "high end". (same for skill level, he has professional skills: could mean he is filming weddings, where for another means he is shooting the next Avatar movie.)

 

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3 hours ago, squig said:

I bought a $50 hammer to build a cabin. It didn't make my hammering any better, I still managed to hammer my thumb just as much as I did with a $10 hammer. It is a nice hammer though, people see it and they stop and say "that's a great hammer you've got there". Do you think anyone who stays at the cabin gives a shit whether I built it with the $50 hammer or a $10 hammer?

Actually, if we apply the analogy to photography, they'd say "That's a great looking hammer - it must make spectacular houses!!"

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5 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

You mean because the FS7 is pro and LS300 borders pro and prosumer?

While I totally agree that those cameras listed aren't really 'prosumer', it does depend on how you classify that category. If you go by price for example, then yes they're not top of the range, pro movie cameras, neither are they consumer cameras. Since they can be used for both if you wanted to though, maybe prosumer is a good category for them?

If you're making music videos and documentaries, they are the cameras pros are using, so does the way you use a camera change it's classification? If so, I semi-regularly use a GX80 in a professional setting for TV broadcast... does that make it a pro camera? Of course it doesn't.

I would generally class those cameras @Savannah Miller listed as pro, but then what would you call an Arri? Maybe also pro, but for a different purpose? Pro mkii ?


What proportion of FS7 owners/users are professionals? The vast majority. 
What proportion of GX80 owners/users are consumers? (not pros) The vast majority. 

Thus as a rough rule of thumb those are quite clear cut you'd say at first glance. 

It is the in between those two extremes that it might get a bit murky. Where do you draw the line, at what ratio? What even are the usage/sales figures for various cameras?

I've got no idea how the sales and usages of the LS300 breakdown, but I'd hazard a good proportion are to pros and enough to at least in my books make it deserve "prosumer" (even arguably beyond that and just straight "professional" perhaps). 

4 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Well the words "professional", "consumer",  "prosumer" are kinda empty words for me. Words like "High End", "Entry level", "mid market" have more value in my eye. I mean working as a "professional" only means that he is earning money with it, and not the level of quality. There are "professionals" out there shooting with 550D, and professionals shooting with Arri Alexa SXT, where I would state the one is "entry level", and the other "high end". (same for skill level, he has professional skills: could mean he is filming weddings, where for another means he is shooting the next Avatar movie.)

Agreed, although I still don't mind the classifications of pro/prosumer/consumer. 

So long as they're used somewhat reasonably. 

And to call an FS7 fvcking "prosumer" is just bonkers nuts! 
(maaaaaaaybe somewhere like oil rich Dubai might have something insane going on with lots of FS7 cameras being sold to consumers? More than to pros. But I doubt it! And in the rest of the world the FS7 absolutely is not a prosumer camera)

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13 minutes ago, IronFilm said:



And to call an FS7 fvcking "prosumer" is just bonkers nuts! 
(maaaaaaaybe somewhere like oil rich Dubai might have something insane going on with lots of FS7 cameras being sold to consumers? More than to pros. But I doubt it! And in the rest of the world the FS7 absolutely is not a prosumer camera)

Haha yeah you are right (however I am one the many consumer exceptions that shoot with a UMP)

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45 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

So long as they're used somewhat reasonably. 

The problem is that everyone speaks from their perspective, and humans are adaptive, and contextual creatures.  

$2 for a cup of coffee doesn't sound like a lot, but to someone in the 1,000,000,000 people living on less than $1 per day income, that would some like a ridiculous luxury.

Considering that most of us can afford hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy camera equipment, and care about things like Dynamic Range and Colour Science, we are all in the vastly deluded minority of people whose concerns seem trivial and frivolous.

Potentially the largest problem this forum has is that the members habitually fail to acknowledge that we are each coming from a different environment, trying to accomplish different things, and have different priorities, and then we howl at each other furiously because of our lack of almost the tiniest bit of perspective.

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13 hours ago, sanveer said:

I doubt anyone can actually tell the difference between 13 and 14 stops. 

Also, I believe the Pocket 4k will offer more than 13 stops, and less than 14 (if it has a similar sensor to the GH5s, since it seems to have more dynamic range than the 13 stops on the GH5).

 

Well with the 4K BMPCC having Raw in it I am sure it will have more DR than the GH5s. How much, heck who knows. But I would guess an easy 1 stop more. I am more thinking the GH5s really has 12 stops in V Log. So the 13 might be right on the BM.

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21 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

Haha hilarious! I opened a calendar and counted until 5th August. That's fantastic.

Edit: 5th of any month is irrelevant anyway - Doubling down on stupidity today!

Please don't do that anymore.  I have a project that I have to finish on a deadline and I thought I lost a month of time BSing on EOSHD!

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14 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

Because it's believed to be Sony Starvis sensor and has similar specs as the new pocket 4K.  The images will surely be different, but in terms of Dynamic Range, I doubt there will be a noticeable difference.

Kinefinity has always been significantly more aggressive than Blackmagic. They were way ahead of Blackmagic in doing 4K, and they definitely had High Frame rates much earlier than Blackkmagic did, and they still can do much higher framrates than anything Blackmagic does.  Size/weight/form factor were also more aggressive compared to Blackmagic too.  In terms of images and operation, they had more fundamental issues compared to the Blackmagic cameras.  Rolling shutter was worse, their slow motion modes were full of artifacting, and their cameras have a weird monitor lag that they still haven't fixed.

 

Blackmagic was much less aggressive with their cameras and prioritized dynamic range, and color.  Two things which they are doing better than a lot of other manufacturers.  Now with the new sensors in Mavo and other cameras, dynamic range is now closing in on the dual-gain sensors that BM uses.

Your Crazy LoL. You Do realize they have had 4k cameras since about the beginning, and some of their stuff even has Global Shutters, No rolling shutter problem. Kinefinity has just come out with 90% of their stuff. BMD is not old by any means, but they make Kinefinity look like a startup company, which they are.

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4 hours ago, kye said:

The problem is that everyone speaks from their perspective, and humans are adaptive, and contextual creatures.  

$2 for a cup of coffee doesn't sound like a lot, but to someone in the 1,000,000,000 people living on less than $1 per day income, that would some like a ridiculous luxury.

Considering that most of us can afford hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy camera equipment, and care about things like Dynamic Range and Colour Science, we are all in the vastly deluded minority of people whose concerns seem trivial and frivolous.

Potentially the largest problem this forum has is that the members habitually fail to acknowledge that we are each coming from a different environment, trying to accomplish different things, and have different priorities, and then we howl at each other furiously because of our lack of almost the tiniest bit of perspective.

Very good post. Yeah if you have the skill you can make a movie with a 3 year old Smartphone look better than most people can if you Gave them a Arri Alexa.

And yes, if you are not making lots of money a Canon T2i with the plastic kit lens gets the job done. Heck I still think the original BMPCC is pretty much all a heck of a lot of people into video really need below the Pro level. And this new 4K one, Wow what else you need other than super duper AF, and that is still up in the air on it..

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1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Well with the 4K BMPCC having Raw in it I am sure it will have more DR than the GH5s. How much, heck who knows. But I would guess an easy 1 stop more. I am more thinking the GH5s really has 12 stops in V Log. So the 13 might be right on the BM.

Here is an article on the GH5s from DPR on DR.  It pretty much thinks it is a bit over 12 stops. I agree that is probably the top.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-gh5s-review/6

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5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well with the 4K BMPCC having Raw in it I am sure it will have more DR than the GH5s. How much, heck who knows. But I would guess an easy 1 stop more. I am more thinking the GH5s really has 12 stops in V Log. So the 13 might be right on the BM.

You definitely win one stop (in the shadows) with BM cameras when you shoot raw and use high-quality (=Neat Video) temporal denoising in post. You don't get that when you shoot ProRes log with the same cameras.

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Well well we all have to admit as of late the line between "Professional" and "Consumer" have really narrowed. When I was most of you guys age you either worked for a place that did video, or you bought a $200.00 at the time spring powered 8mm movie camera. If you were rich you had a Bolex, or my dream camera, a Beaulieu 4008 ZM Camera. They made beautiful looking cameras. Not too many choices compared to today.

Now with the 4K BMPCC coming out it can nearly compete with rich people on an equal footing. The GH5s is amazing, the Sony A7 mk III is, the ML Canon 5D mk III, Canon C100, on and on. We live in an amazing time for video. It is now down to skill more than gear. The tables have leveled. No real excuse these days to not get the job done.

 

8mm.thumb.jpg.6ea62de88e7b63e30b7f5e1d53cea3b9.jpg

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40 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Now with the 4K BMPCC coming out it can nearly compete with rich people on an equal footing. The GH5s is amazing, the Sony A7 mk III is, the ML Canon 5D mk III, Canon C100, on and on. We live in an amazing time for video. It is now down to skill more than gear. The tables have leveled. No real excuse these days to not get the job done.

That pretty much sums it up.  Look at DSLRs.  The megapixel race ended awhile ago and body refresh cycles are getting longer and longer and less and less meaningful.

Eventually we will get to peak video and just about any camera will be capable of excellent results.

I sell pictures from my T3i for book covers and national advertisements.  I've beat out pros for projects.  No one and I mean no one is going to look at a book cover and say, "gee, I think this was taken with a T3i".  If I was a pro of course I would upgrade to a better camera for speed, accuracy, and ergonomics sake.  But I'm not expecting to suddenly be taking mind blowingly better pictures.

I am excited about the BMPCC 4k because of the value at the price point.  I also find the files easier to work with as an amateur.  I don't want to fight with sony skin tones or have to light a scene for a GH5.  My skills are limited so I use the tool that gets me nicer stuff with less effort... and at a great price.  Hopefully the BMPCC 4k will continue the Blackmagic tradition.

But really.  We need to stop the pro vs nonpro discussion.  Or at least move it to another thread.  Call the BMPCC 4k whatever you want... I'm probably buying it.

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