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Andrew Reid

Panasonic GH5 - all is revealed!

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1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

The whole point of shooting with a RED or C200 or any cine camera is the best representation of reality as we can.

I think I understand now.

You think that everyone sees film-making like you do.  This is a false assumption that you will hopefully shed over time.  Here's a question for you - what's the point of colour grading?  If the point of any cinema camera is to get the best representation of reality we can then why not just colour balance and then be done with it?  Why is the teal/orange look popular?  Why was The Matrix all green?  Why do they still make B&W films.  These are all exceptions to your "best representation of reality" argument.

1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

For some reason telling someone that the GH5 is great for the money and the newer full frame cameras aren't any better is flat out not true. And that kind of comment will lead to someone buying the Gh5 in 2019, investing in m4/3 glass and making a mistake in the process. The BMP4K is better then the GH5 but that's not discussed either. Be a GH5 fan boy but don't point people in the wrong direction. 

I couldn't care less about what camera is better than a GH5.  I have said so many times - feel free to review my past posts.

It sounds like there's a lot of emotion for you in the people who are saying things about the S1 or the Z6.  Even if I called them both potatoes - why would you care?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
50 minutes ago, kye said:

I think I understand now.

You think that everyone sees film-making like you do.  This is a false assumption that you will hopefully shed over time.  Here's a question for you - what's the point of colour grading?  If the point of any cinema camera is to get the best representation of reality we can then why not just colour balance and then be done with it?  Why is the teal/orange look popular?  Why was The Matrix all green?  Why do they still make B&W films.  These are all exceptions to your "best representation of reality" argument.

I couldn't care less about what camera is better than a GH5.  I have said so many times - feel free to review my past posts.

It sounds like there's a lot of emotion for you in the people who are saying things about the S1 or the Z6.  Even if I called them both potatoes - why would you care?

People have discussions in these forums that's what they are for. I could care less if you think the S1 and Z6 are junk. But when people are looking for advice about investing in gear then the EOSHD should be great place to get information. I happen to like the S1 and Z6 based on research I've done and by owning the Z6. Both these cameras have the best video from a mirrorless camera to date outside of the BMP4K.  

Both the S1 and Z6 will be able to shoot 12 bit Raw and everyone knows or should know the advantage of 12 bit Raw. No one is forcing anyone to shoot Raw but it's there if you need it. If 12 bit Raw is not what you want both cameras can do 10 bit 4K 30fps with no crop. Both have great color science. Wha's not to like?  Except the price.

You should know you need a camera that can capture good color and you have to have a good quality base to start with. Do you think the Matrix was shot the way we see it? 

You argument destroys the concept that Arri color is preferred over the RED or that Canon has great color or that good color matters at all. Since when did good or great color become something to disagree with? Good color is the goal of every camera maker and cinematographer. The last video I posted was straight out of the Z6 and as flat as I wanted to shot. 

My "best representation of reality" argument" is based on any footage out of the BMP4K, C200, RED, Arri, etc - if you want to bake in a look then go ahead and go for it. No one on professional gigs work that way and all the examples are color graded choice anyone can chose to apply.  

I have said very little about my views on film making and actually I have said nothing about my views. I posted samples to show that the Z6 does not crush black levels like one guy claimed they did or that the Z6 gave everything a dark look. And this guy is very quite about crushed black levels and the Z6 isn't he? 

I don't need to shed any assumption on how any camera should perform for professional work. Cameras should have good color and dynamic range to start with. That's the best way to capture reality. Capturing reality is what film, photography, videos have done since they were invented. I also never said I have issue with graded looks or when they should be applied or used. Let everyone create the vision they want. 

And you make it sound like color balance is not that critical or needed. The very point of EOSHD pro color for Sony that he created was to improve color performance on those cameras.

Your argument goes against the very foundation of EOSHD. 

 

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8 hours ago, Skip77 said:

The Nikon Z6 is scheduled to get 12 bit Raw ProRes output to Atomos Ninja recorder. Where did you get your information? You have Nikon with this info and Atomos saying the same-thing. Where do you get that the Z6 might never get Raw? 

 

Here's the video that you claim is a photo. 

 

You must have more to say then that since you thought a video still was actually a photo.

 

Video or not I am still not am not buying one. Like I said, I am not buying Any of the new cameras. None of them, other than the PK4, too much to add to really get it to function, bring anything I need to the table that is not already out for less money. I am not a big Hybrid fan anyways. They are a compromise on both fronts. But I am sure a Z6, Z7 can get the job done. It just takes a lot more effort than I want to out into it to make it happen. Enjoy it.

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50 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Video or not I am still not am not buying one. Like I said, I am not buying Any of the new cameras. None of them, other than the PK4, too much to add to really get it to function, bring anything I need to the table that is not already out for less money. I am not a big Hybrid fan anyways. They are a compromise on both fronts. But I am sure a Z6, Z7 can get the job done. It just takes a lot more effort than I want to out into it to make it happen. Enjoy it.

Video or not is actually "A Video" - Why is this so hard to admit?  Could it be the quality looked better then you thought the Z6 was able to produce? Got ya on this one.

Fair enough on the other comments. I will probably test the P4K myself and see how the usability is and image quality. The price it too good to pass up on that one. I'm not sold on m4/3 glass  and having to invest but will probably rent high end glass for the P4K.  

The P4K has to be just as rigged up as the Z6 and the video above was handheld, natural light and that was it. Me and the camera. On productions that you rig any camera out the footprint will be the same no matter what. The only add on would be the Atomos if need 10 bit or 12 bit raw. 

Hybrids aren't a compromise if you pick the right one. Nikon, Canon and Sony just limit feat that you have to work around. No big deal. 

With the Z6 I can shoot green screen in the studio during the day and shot stills at  a concert the same night. You can't do that with the P4K

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And then you can't come close to the output of the PK4 in video with the Z6 either. So there are compromises on any camera. I don't think many on here are buying a camera for Photo ability as a big priority other than maybe @BTM_Pix And he is likes cameras anyways, he has a Eh, a Leica, heck even a Nikon D4s, a LS300, a Sigma, on and on. Hmm, he is as crazy as I used to be!  But he makes a buck doing it, so he is forgiven. But a all in one camera wouldn't hurt his feelings I would imagine.

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12 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

And then you can't come close to the output of the PK4 in video with the Z6 either. So there are compromises on any camera. I don't think many on here are buying a camera on here for Photo ability as a big priority other than maybe @BTM_Pix And he is likes cameras anyways, he has a Eh, a Leica, heck even a Nikon D4s, a LS300, on and on. Hmm, he is as crazy as I used to be!  But he makes a buck doing it, so he is forgiven. But a all in one camera wouldn't hurt his feelings I would imagine.

How do you know how the Z6 12 bit Raw compares to the P4k ? You don't.  You're talking with no research or test at all. 

I'll break it down for you:

The GH5s compared well against the P4K in early test because they share the same sensor or almost identical one. The Z6 has better color, video image quality and low light then the GH5s and based on footage presented to you you know for a fact the Z6 will compare well. 

So you my friend the Z6 can come close and then some compared to the P4K.

 If you don't believe my comments then look at the video you thought was high quality photo taken from a Nikon camera. Trust your eyes not what you want to be true.

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You are Totally on drugs if you think your Nikon looks as good as bRaw, or ProRes HQ on the PK4. It is not even half as good as the footage I showed from the OG BMPCC with a piss ass little s16mm sensor. You must have had a Barbie Cam before you bought the Z6 to think it is some groundbreaking improvement..

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13 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I don't think many on here are buying a camera for Photo ability as a big priority other than maybe @BTM_Pix And he is likes cameras anyways, he has a Eh, a Leica, heck even a Nikon D4s, a LS300, on and on. Hmm, he is as crazy as I used to be!  But he makes a buck doing it, so he is forgiven. But a all in one camera wouldn't hurt his feelings I would imagine.

You forgot my Hasselblad ;)

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35 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You are Totally on drugs if you think your Nikon looks as good as bRaw, or ProRes HQ on the PK4. It is not even half as good as the footage I showed from the OG BMPCC with a piss ass little s16mm sensor. You must have had a Barbie Cam before you bought the Z6 to think it is some groundbreaking improvement..

Give your take on the last video I posted, the one that you thought was a photo and not from video? Again, if the Gh5s can go head to head with the P4K then based on my comparison of the Z6 to the FS7, and C200, I know it will stack up well against the P4K. 

You said the Z6 can't come close to the P4k in video? Why not? Give us you great take based on my footage and your knowledge. I also said Z6 12 bit Raw against the P4K. 

I've hired old school guys like you that think the 10 year old cam corder is still relevant and that you can't bridge the gap between cine cameras and mirrorless cameras. 

I know for a fact that the Z6 compares well next to the C200 because we shot with both at the same location. 

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9 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You argument destroys the concept that Arri color is preferred over the RED or that Canon has great color or that good color matters at all. Since when did good or great color become something to disagree with? Good color is the goal of every camera maker and cinematographer. The last video I posted was straight out of the Z6 and as flat as I wanted to shot. 

Good color is subjective and a matter of opinion.  You can't jump through logic hoops while stating opinion as fact.  Also, I'm happy to debate cameras, but please leave out the personal attacks.  @kye is one of my favorite posters on this board and if his posts are not in the spirit of the board, I don't want to be here.

Personally, after shooting in 10 bit internal for a couple years, I think it's a requirement for  any camera in 2019.

If you have to slap an external monitor onto the camera to get 10 bit, then I think you'd be better served just getting a full video camera and rigging it out.  If hybrid is your thing, then again, I ask who wants to deal with an external monitor while shooting photos and video?

To me all the blustering about who has the best color is opinion and irrelevant unless the camera shoots 10 bit.  It's not that you can't get great results with 8 bit, the problem is the 1-2% of the shots where banding appears in the sky, or when you have to save a shot that wasn't exposed with perfect settings, or some extreme grading breaks the image, or a multitude of other gotchas where a save in post is necessary-- that's where 10 bit shines.  Raw adds even more flexibility because it opens up more extreme exposure and white balance adjustments in post.  

You can get great results in 8 bit, but a lot of the time pro cameras are about saving mistakes made on the set, or at a location that can't be easily repeated. 

 

...and until the Z6 actually shoots raw, its vaporware and irrelevant.  It's so tiresome to debate what camera will be best in the future after X spec is added...  🙄

 

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1 hour ago, Towd said:

Good color is subjective and a matter of opinion.  You can't jump through logic hoops while stating opinion as fact.  Also, I'm happy to debate cameras, but please leave out the personal attacks.  @kye is one of my favorite posters on this board and if his posts are not in the spirit of the board, I don't want to be here.

Personally, after shooting in 10 bit internal for a couple years, I think it's a requirement for  any camera in 2019.

If you have to slap an external monitor onto the camera to get 10 bit, then I think you'd be better served just getting a full video camera and rigging it out.  If hybrid is your thing, then again, I ask who wants to deal with an external monitor while shooting photos and video?

To me all the blustering about who has the best color is opinion and irrelevant unless the camera shoots 10 bit.  It's not that you can't get great results with 8 bit, the problem is the 1-2% of the shots where banding appears in the sky, or when you have to save a shot that wasn't exposed with perfect settings, or some extreme grading breaks the image, or a multitude of other gotchas where a save in post is necessary-- that's where 10 bit shines.  Raw adds even more flexibility because it opens up more extreme exposure and white balance adjustments in post.  

You can get great results in 8 bit, but a lot of the time pro cameras are about saving mistakes made on the set, or at a location that can't be easily repeated. 

 

...and until the Z6 actually shoots raw, its vaporware and irrelevant.  It's so tiresome to debate what camera will be best in the future after X spec is added...  🙄

 

When did I personally attack @kye?

Here's a P4k lightly rigged out.  How is using the Atomos with the Z6 is any different then the rigged out P4K?  

If shooting photo's with the Z6 you DON"T USE THE ATOMOS. 

What part of two companies announcing 12 bit Raw will be coming in July makes you doubt that it will happen? It's not irrelevant it's just irrelevant to closed minded argumentative people. 

Again - I tried to give fed back to people who asked about the Z6 or were curious and to debunk the claims that it crushed black or that it doesn't have better color then Sony and the GH5. You must have missed goober claiming his opinion as fact about the Z6 was bad and the my video still was not from video but a photo taken from the camera.

And what video camera can you get for 2k that shoots 10 bit full frame 4k 30fps with no crop? (and will be able to shoot 12 bit Raw this summer.) Show me that full frame dedicated video camera with those spec and I'll take it.

Good color is not subjective. Were not talking about who has the best tan. Were talking about how the camera reproduces color. The only times it's subjective is when someone is defending the camera they purchased. 

If I had the money I would have bought the C200 over the Z6 or maybe the P4K if it was available.  

 

57426238_10205636682192138_1381616392721137664_n.jpg

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I don't know man.  You're in the GH5 thread arguing about the Z6 with features that aren't even out yet.  It'll be interesting to look at when it's available, but hypotheticals don't help with anything people want to shoot today.

1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

And what video camera can you get for 2k that shoots 10 bit full frame 4k 30fps with no crop?

A lot of people don't want to shoot full frame-- been there and done that.  It's a pain in the ass to keep everything in focus. Actors drift off a mark and blow a shot.  It requires more prep to get right, and more takes nail a shot.  In documentaries I find it distracting when the environment is too blown out into to mushy bokeh as well.  In my opinion, there's a nice level of defocus necessary to help direct the viewer's eye, but too much can be annoying.  Micro four thirds hits a great balance for that in my opinion and packs into a very small package.  If you need extreme bokeh in a scene, throw on a speed booster, long lens, or shoot with one of the many f.95 lenses out there.

I totally get why people want to do full frame shooting for some projects.  And it's certainly fun to experiment with different styles and looks. And I can even see why bloggers would want it since they often don't have interesting backgrounds and their style resembles the realm of portraiture with their self interested subject matter. 

But the GH5 fits all your requirements if you don't care about shooting Vista Vision...

In regards to the rig you posted, I might as well grab a Red camera and shoot with that.  Used ones are not even that expensive anymore.  Or grab a Z-Cam, or the black magic pocket you posted.  The point of the GH5 for my purposes is 10 bit log capture in a small camera body.  The only other camera I'm aware of that can do that is the X-T3 and it lacks internal stabilization. 

The conversation started because you came here posting that GH5 users were somehow misleading new buyers into buying an outdated system that wasn't as good as the Z6 or S1.  I'm saying it's still more than relevant today.  Different tools for different problems.  

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3 hours ago, AlexTrinder96 said:

But the Z6 cannot shoot 10 bit internally. So it costs quite a bit more than 2k for that. 

It's still under the S1 when you add the Atomos and you get 12 bit Raw.

3 hours ago, Towd said:

I don't know man.  You're in the GH5 thread arguing about the Z6 with features that aren't even out yet.  It'll be interesting to look at when it's available, but hypotheticals don't help with anything people want to shoot today.

A lot of people don't want to shoot full frame-- been there and done that.  It's a pain in the ass to keep everything in focus. Actors drift off a mark and blow a shot.  It requires more prep to get right, and more takes nail a shot.  In documentaries I find it distracting when the environment is too blown out into to mushy bokeh as well.  In my opinion, there's a nice level of defocus necessary to help direct the viewer's eye, but too much can be annoying.  Micro four thirds hits a great balance for that in my opinion and packs into a very small package.  If you need extreme bokeh in a scene, throw on a speed booster, long lens, or shoot with one of the many f.95 lenses out there.

I totally get why people want to do full frame shooting for some projects.  And it's certainly fun to experiment with different styles and looks. And I can even see why bloggers would want it since they often don't have interesting backgrounds and their style resembles the realm of portraiture with their self interested subject matter. 

But the GH5 fits all your requirements if you don't care about shooting Vista Vision...

In regards to the rig you posted, I might as well grab a Red camera and shoot with that.  Used ones are not even that expensive anymore.  Or grab a Z-Cam, or the black magic pocket you posted.  The point of the GH5 for my purposes is 10 bit log capture in a small camera body.  The only other camera I'm aware of that can do that is the X-T3 and it lacks internal stabilization. 

The conversation started because you came here posting that GH5 users were somehow misleading new buyers into buying an outdated system that wasn't as good as the Z6 or S1.  I'm saying it's still more than relevant today.  Different tools for different problems.  

I mentioned color and the GH5 brother and you should visit the Z6 thread and see how many GH5 comments get tossed around. So I figure the rules are the same for each thread. 

What are you talking about with full frame? You adjust your aperture and depth of field.  

3 hours ago, Towd said:

In regards to the rig you posted, I might as well grab a Red camera and shoot with that.  Used ones are not even that expensive anymore.  Or grab a Z-Cam, or the black magic pocket you posted.  The point of the GH5 for my purposes is 10 bit log capture in a small camera body.  The only other camera I'm aware of that can do that is the X-T3 and it lacks internal stabilization. 

The rig picture was that of a BMP4K that has been mentioned and as the Z6 with Atomos was called out I posted that rig picture to show how insane the comments were getting about having to rig up the Z6 with an external monitor for 10 -12 Raw. 

3 hours ago, Towd said:

The conversation started because you came here posting that GH5 users were somehow misleading new buyers into buying an outdated system that wasn't as good as the Z6 or S1.  I'm saying it's still more than relevant today.  Different tools for different problems.  

The GH5 is a good camera and if you follow comments about the S1 compared to the GH5 you'll which one has better image quality, and better color. The GH5 is relevant today but to a person investing into the m4/3 system and the GH5 over the S1, Z6 or P4K, it seems like that person has better option that produce better result and is a little more future proof. 

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1 minute ago, Skip77 said:

It's still under the S1 when you add the Atomos and you get 12 bit Raw.

Morning!  I see you've all been busy while I was sleeping :)

There issue here is that there isn't such a thing as a 'better' camera, only "better for ...... situation"
The S1 might have colours that please you better, the Z6 might have menus that someone likes more, sure, and these days there are no more bad cameras, I'm sure the S1 and the Z6 are just lovely.  But it depends on what your situation is - for the person with m43 glass the GH5 is better than the S1 (or an Alexa for that matter), for the person who has very little HDD space and only needs 1080 the c100 might be hard to beat, and for the person who shoots underwater or in action sports a GoPro is a pretty good option.  Hell, for the person that wants 240fps an iPhone kills basically everything else because not much else can do it.

If we make some assumptions about what you're trying to say, and we assume that the person: 1) has no lens collection, 2) has $5K or whatever for a new setup, 3) values the colour straight-out of the camera or with very light grading, 4) has the time and hardware for RAW and high-bitrate codecs, 5) assuming that what is announced actually gets delivered on, and 6) a future camera with a different lens mount doesn't come along that will significantly beat their choice, THEN maybe the S1 or the Z6 might be the best options for that person.  You may be right - those cameras are probably the best current option for many many people. 

The problem is that any of the things that I listed as assumptions may not apply to the person out there that you are trying to save from online treachery.  If that person has a lens collection already then that skews it for mounts that are compatible or can be adapted (if that's ok for that person).  If they don't have a setup but don't have the $5K+ for a new setup required then maybe a lesser camera with a cheaper / more available ecosystem might be better.  If you don't mind about colour straight-out of the camera, or can grade, then practically any 10-bit camera will be good.  If you're looking for Alexa colours then the GHAlex LUTs from Sage are a real plus for the GH5 right now.  If they don't have the time or heavy footprint of RAW then they'll be wanting something that shoots the quality / bitrate compromise at their optimal point.  Lots of people shoot in a regular profile and get things right in-camera so they don't have to grade at all, this is mainly for speed in post-production, which is a big deal for people on tight timeframes.  If you're looking for the best camera and the S1 is better than the GH5 and you go all-in for that, then you're at risk of the GH6 making you regret your decision.  No-one can predict the future, but if I was in the market right now, even if I didn't have any m43 glass, the system still looks like it might be more attractive because of its history, although FF third party lenses are starting to fill out like they did for the m43 system over the last years.

Until we get a camera that's perfect for everyone, people will still have unique requirements that mean they prioritise factors differently to others, and therefore buy differently.

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41 minutes ago, kye said:

Morning!  I see you've all been busy while I was sleeping :)

There issue here is that there isn't such a thing as a 'better' camera, only "better for ...... situation"
The S1 might have colours that please you better, the Z6 might have menus that someone likes more, sure, and these days there are no more bad cameras, I'm sure the S1 and the Z6 are just lovely.  But it depends on what your situation is - for the person with m43 glass the GH5 is better than the S1 (or an Alexa for that matter), for the person who has very little HDD space and only needs 1080 the c100 might be hard to beat, and for the person who shoots underwater or in action sports a GoPro is a pretty good option.  Hell, for the person that wants 240fps an iPhone kills basically everything else because not much else can do it.

If we make some assumptions about what you're trying to say, and we assume that the person: 1) has no lens collection, 2) has $5K or whatever for a new setup, 3) values the colour straight-out of the camera or with very light grading, 4) has the time and hardware for RAW and high-bitrate codecs, 5) assuming that what is announced actually gets delivered on, and 6) a future camera with a different lens mount doesn't come along that will significantly beat their choice, THEN maybe the S1 or the Z6 might be the best options for that person.  You may be right - those cameras are probably the best current option for many many people. 

The problem is that any of the things that I listed as assumptions may not apply to the person out there that you are trying to save from online treachery.  If that person has a lens collection already then that skews it for mounts that are compatible or can be adapted (if that's ok for that person).  If they don't have a setup but don't have the $5K+ for a new setup required then maybe a lesser camera with a cheaper / more available ecosystem might be better.  If you don't mind about colour straight-out of the camera, or can grade, then practically any 10-bit camera will be good.  If you're looking for Alexa colours then the GHAlex LUTs from Sage are a real plus for the GH5 right now.  If they don't have the time or heavy footprint of RAW then they'll be wanting something that shoots the quality / bitrate compromise at their optimal point.  Lots of people shoot in a regular profile and get things right in-camera so they don't have to grade at all, this is mainly for speed in post-production, which is a big deal for people on tight timeframes.  If you're looking for the best camera and the S1 is better than the GH5 and you go all-in for that, then you're at risk of the GH6 making you regret your decision.  No-one can predict the future, but if I was in the market right now, even if I didn't have any m43 glass, the system still looks like it might be more attractive because of its history, although FF third party lenses are starting to fill out like they did for the m43 system over the last years.

Until we get a camera that's perfect for everyone, people will still have unique requirements that mean they prioritise factors differently to others, and therefore buy differently.

No one was talking about m4/3 glass and what the next camera they should purchase. If all the GH5 owners are waiting on the Gh6 then that makes sense and I would do the same except if I had a GH5, like my G7, I would have already figured out that the 4/3 sensor is not even super35 size and I would have already done my research that told me Hollywood cinematographers are moving toward full frame sensors and glass. I think most Gh5 owners know the faults of the camera and what the S1 and Z6 do better already so no need for me to call it out. The GH5 is just not the camera I would recommend for anyone looking to upgrade.

28 minutes ago, AlexTrinder96 said:

Again...

We don't even have a release date for the Raw update.

Yes we do the release date is in July.

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34 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

 If all the GH5 owners are waiting on the Gh6 then that makes sense and I would do the same except if I had a GH5, like my G7, I would have already figured out that the 4/3 sensor is not even super35 size and I would have already done my research that told me and glass. I think most Gh5 owners know the faults of the camera and what the S1 and Z6 do better already so no need for me to call it out. The GH5 is just not the camera I would recommend for anyone looking to upgrade.

 

Hi, I'm curious: if I, after reading remarks to @Kye's post made after his awakening, confirm that 4/3 sensor is not even super35 size and that Hollywood cinematographers are moving toward full frame sensors - so consequently Z6 and S1 are more recommendable camera than GH5 - would you disagree in something with me?

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