Gerald just spilled the beans about YT reviews, naming brand and giving examples, etc

[Dave Maze]

I went to Japan and have the loaner S9 from Panasonic. I told them I am not in the camera review space like I used to be, and they still were kind enough to invite me. I plan on making a few videos with it, but haven't posted anything since the embargo because I am so unsure what to say. It seems everyone has already made a "First Look" video and many others have tried to apologize for accepting the free trip and camera. I don't feel bad for accepting the trip as I'm sure anyone else here would do also. I think all the conversation around this is generally healthy for our industry and why I personally took a step back from it all over the last two years after quitting Indy Mogul. 

 

Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be honest. 

[fuzzynormal]

20 minutes ago, Dave Maze said:

Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be honest.

What's better for you in general?  Playing with gear or actually making motion picture stories with gear?

Personally, I don't fault either.  I'm more the former if I'm being honest.  If you're tech head and like get excited about that, go for it.  If you're a true creative and that's your priority, that's fine too.

I have my biases about online freelance marketers, but a few of them seem to have eventually evolved into trying to be real filmmakers and left the influencer game behind.  Curious about your perspective.

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

You cover the loss of earnings like you would for any vacation, except you generate revenue from this trip through sponsors and ad revenue based on the content you make from it.

I don’t think the ad revenue argument stands up to any scrutiny to be honest.

Have a look at the views for all of the S9 videos.

YouTube pays what these days, $2-3K per million views?

Big channels covering it such as PetaPixel have broke 100K views but the rest are mainly sub 20 and 30K.

I’s be surprised if the total viewership from all of the attendants broke a million views so I don’t think anyone is making money on ad revenue.

As I said, those days are gone and these numbers are indicative of it.

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

I guarantee these YouTubers got more time to check out Japan during one of these trips than I got to check out Philly, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. in the dozens of times each that I was paid to be there to work.

The first dozen or so times I went to do work in Japan, I didn’t see any of it either.

Thats why I went back on holidays there.

The only reason I could do the latter was because I got paid for the former.

No one was getting my work time for free and no one was getting any of my holiday time for free either.

If someone has paid me to go on holiday but expects me to attend a seminar, bussed around on a few organised days of photo opportunities and then produce a video about their product in a deadline no less then I either haven’t really been on holiday or I’ve allowed myself to be paid a negligible rate.

It would be akin to going on a free “holiday” from a timeshare company.

In the imaging industry there has been a race to the bottom fuelled by the initially creeping and now virtually ubiquitous expectation that people should work for the exposure and the networking opportunity so I find it out of order that people are aiding and abetting the practice for a manufacturer.

When the practice now actually begins with the manufacturer, how will that situation improve for anyone who they want to sell the product to?

In the past decade or so, malignant interests have bought off politicians in the UK and other countries and it’s a toss up between what has been the more surprising; the ease with which it has been done or how little it actually costs.

I suspect many manufacturers (not just of cameras) view their relationship with many YouTubers in exactly the same way.
 

[SRV1981]

32 minutes ago, Dave Maze said:

I went to Japan and have the loaner S9 from Panasonic. I told them I am not in the camera review space like I used to be, and they still were kind enough to invite me. I plan on making a few videos with it, but haven't posted anything since the embargo because I am so unsure what to say. It seems everyone has already made a "First Look" video and many others have tried to apologize for accepting the free trip and camera. I don't feel bad for accepting the trip as I'm sure anyone else here would do also. I think all the conversation around this is generally healthy for our industry and why I personally took a step back from it all over the last two years after quitting Indy Mogul. 

 

Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be honest. 

Why do YT reviewers say that they’re the pipeline between camera companies and us users? Why can’t they just borrow a unit from a local shop to make a review and garner views that way? 
 

it seems to me that they’re just finding a niche to make a living by making ads for companies. Nothing wrong with that but the veneer that you guys do this for anything but compensation is the issue. 
 

“I wasn’t paid for this review” but was flown out and had a trip paid for? Didn’t Gerald say you guys use this as a chance to make videos for sponsors to get paid? 
 

nothing wrong with making a living but in a field where comments drive views and revenue it would seem being honest and not doing gymnastics to skirt the reality would help? 

[Dave Maze]

9 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

What's better for you in general?  Playing with gear or actually making motion picture stories with gear?

Personally, I don't fault either.  I'm more the former if I'm being honest.  If you're tech head and like get excited about that, go for it.  If you're a true creative and that's your priority, that's fine too.

I have my biases about online freelance marketers, but a few of them seem to have eventually evolved into trying to be real filmmakers and left the influencer game behind.  Curious about your perspective.

i love being a youtuber. which is why i left Indy Mogul. i have no desire to make movies. i love YouTube and have a passion for cameras and tech

[Dave Maze]

Just now, SRV1981 said:

Why do YT reviewers say that they’re the pipeline between camera companies and us users? Why can’t they just borrow a unit from a local shop to make a review and garner views that way? 
 

it seems to me that they’re just finding a niche to make a living by making ads for companies. Nothing wrong with that but the veneer that you guys do this for anything but compensation is the issue. 
 

“I wasn’t paid for this review” but was flown out and had a trip paid for? Didn’t Gerald say you guys use this as a chance to make videos for sponsors to get paid? 
 

nothing wrong with making a living but in a field where comments drive views and revenue it would seem being honest and not doing gymnastics to skirt the reality would help? 

great questions!

let me ask you this hypothetical, if you got an email that said "we'd like to fly you out to Japan all expenses paid and let you play with a new unreleased camera with a bunch of your friends for a week" would you accept? i even told LUMIX i am not in the niche like i used to be when i did Kinotika and Indy Mogul and they still wanted me there!

 

As for making money off views, I actually made a video that got more views than most the other people who were at the S5 II release last year. I made $100. I didn't make the video to even make money. I made it for fun. Because I thought it was an interesting story to tell about Panasonic finally adding phase detect to their cameras. 

[PannySVHS]

I remember you doing visually very sophisticated and engaging work such as music videos, f.i. with the 1DC. @Dave Maze Despite not doing shorts and films anymore, do you still do personal pieces besides videos of your loved ones, such as cinema verité of daily life vignettes, essayistic work or visual poems? I 've seen quiet a few talented people who even have turned away completely from the moving image, unfortunately.

About the S9, do you know if the downsampled open gate 4K mode will come to the other S line models as well, maybe even the older ones? Will there be another flavour of it with a higher bit rate than 50 Mbps?

How is battery life? No mechanical shutter nor hot shoe is a shame. That was not a question, I know. Sorry:)

Last but not least, great to see you, Dave.😊 best and cheers

[kye]

11 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I mean if you think it is wild to sell a Komodo to get instead a Blackmagic Pyxis, then you'll blow your mind if you watch these videos of people selling their RED Komodo for instead a Sony FX3 (or an a7Smk3, or even a FX30):

I'm not really that surprised about people switching away from RED in seemingly odd situations because I think that RED holds this strange place for many as a "fantasy camera".  There is a little bit of "one day I'll save up and buy an Alexa" on YT, and maybe a little bit for the higher end Sony cameras, but "one day I'll own a RED camera!!!" is a big theme on YT.

Then they get the darn thing and realise: 1) pure cinema isn't magically channelled onto the media card, and 2) it's a PITA to use.

I'm slightly susceptible to this "RED fever" myself - I'll think of the images coming off the Komodo and how stunning they were, and start thinking about how maybe I could use it, and then I remember that literally almost everything about it is completely wrong for me.....  but part of me still wants one!

1 hour ago, Dave Maze said:

I went to Japan and have the loaner S9 from Panasonic. I told them I am not in the camera review space like I used to be, and they still were kind enough to invite me. I plan on making a few videos with it, but haven't posted anything since the embargo because I am so unsure what to say. It seems everyone has already made a "First Look" video and many others have tried to apologize for accepting the free trip and camera. I don't feel bad for accepting the trip as I'm sure anyone else here would do also. I think all the conversation around this is generally healthy for our industry and why I personally took a step back from it all over the last two years after quitting Indy Mogul. 

Feel free to ask me anything you want. I promise to be honest. 

Hi Dave!

I'm assuming that most creators cover the costs of the trip via the sponsorships from the usual suspects like Audiio and Squarespace and BetterHelp etc, and also assuming that you have a general idea about what other people get paid for such things..  is it true that this covers the trip costs?  if so, is it better for them to attend a trip and make 1 or 2 or more videos about the camera than it would have been to stay home and make different videos about other things that didn't involve a trip?  if not, do they take a financial loss and view it as a partly-subsidised holiday?

I'm guessing that there's more interest (and therefore more views and higher sponsorship payments) for videos around a new camera rather than the old "My 5 favourite vintage lenses" or "7 tips for shooting with a wide angle" videos which don't depend on access to new equipment.

I'm also aware of the YT formula of making searchable tech videos to get reach and attract new subscribers, and making regular content with more personality that caters to existing subscribers and builds your personal brand, so even if someone takes a loss on the videos from the trip it might pay out in getting more subs, growing the channel, and therefore increasing the viewership and sponsorship fees for all future videos.

[SRV1981]

2 hours ago, Dave Maze said:

great questions!

let me ask you this hypothetical, if you got an email that said "we'd like to fly you out to Japan all expenses paid and let you play with a new unreleased camera with a bunch of your friends for a week" would you accept? i even told LUMIX i am not in the niche like i used to be when i did Kinotika and Indy Mogul and they still wanted me there!

 

As for making money off views, I actually made a video that got more views than most the other people who were at the S5 II release last year. I made $100. I didn't make the video to even make money. I made it for fun. Because I thought it was an interesting story to tell about Panasonic finally adding phase detect to their cameras. 

For sure! But don’t you think people will be skeptical of the positive reviews? So many popular YT personalities give mostly positive reviews for every camera they’re given by a manufacturer. Free camera, free trips, people are going to be skeptical 

[SRV1981]

 

[Dave Maze]

1 hour ago, SRV1981 said:

For sure! But don’t you think people will be skeptical of the positive reviews? So many popular YT personalities give mostly positive reviews for every camera they’re given by a manufacturer. Free camera, free trips, people are going to be skeptical 

Of course! I'm stoked this conversation is happening. We need to all be aware of how it all works and the creators should always be upfront and honest about their involvement with whatever company they are talking about. Which is why I have been patient on making my personal video and we just posted a podcast sharing our thoughts. I don't think YouTubers should race to get a video out and not be thoughtful about their content. A first look video is fine and I certainly played that game for years, but now I feel finding an interesting angle or an interesting idea about a camera or piece of tech is way more creative and ultimately more authentic. 

 

But if a creator can truly be honest about the trips, free loaner gear etc... and is still able to be objective somehow... is that good? Is there a way you can watch a video about a camera that was given to someone as a loaner and take away any value at all? If not, then some creators should consider taking one for the team and denying the free trips and free loaners. A hard ask when the day to day life of a YouTuber is extremely grinding, late nights, ups and downs financially, and then a company says "hey you wanna go on a trip with all your friends for free?"

[Dave Maze]

1 hour ago, SRV1981 said:

 

Hopefully we remained as true as can be here. We tried to share our honest thoughts. Neither one of us would buy this camera with our own money at the moment either. It's too expensive for a fun camera for us. But for some people it may be worth it

[mercer]

What boggles my mind is how on earth a couple of minutes a day with a camera for a couple days on a trip is going to give enough insight into how well the camera works under normal circumstances? It sounds like a bunch of smoke and mirrors that the camera manufacturers and the YouTube personalities engage in to give the hopped up consumer. Obviously, it works. Do they get loaner cameras too to help with the reviews? Do the marketing folks "coach" you at these retreats by repeating catch phrases or some other subliminal techniques to push the "reviewer" towards a positive review? Or do they bank on the innate notion that it is harder to be critical when someone has been so nice. It reminds me of the South Park episode when some Asian country was trying to take over South Park by telling them how much bigger American penises are compared to Asian ones. 

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

You cover the loss of earnings like you would for any vacation, except you generate revenue from this trip through sponsors and ad revenue based on the content you make from it.

I don’t think the ad revenue argument stands up to any scrutiny to be honest.

Have a look at the views for all of the S9 videos.

YouTube pays what these days, $2-3K per million views?

Ad revenue is decided on a lot of different factors, none of which YouTube really shares with us (or at least not me.) I'll randomly earn $20 dollars in revenue one month for a 10 year old video that got a dozen views. Meanwhile a video that gets a couple thousand views will make half that. 

Ad revenue isn't bringing in the money that it used to, but it DOES still generate passive income. It may only be a couple thousand dollars a month, but for many folks that might be enough to pay for their mortgage or rent. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

4 hours ago, Dave Maze said:

As for making money off views, I actually made a video that got more views than most the other people who were at the S5 II release last year. I made $100. I didn't make the video to even make money. I made it for fun

Many of the YouTubers that are doing these reviews do a sponsor readout as part of it.  Adsense might not be making a lot of money, but I'm guessing that Squarespace or NordVPN or similar pay alright.  Maybe you didn't do sponsor readouts, but a lot of those people do.

So the equation for them would become "How many videos will I get out of this free trip where I can do a sponsor read vs how many would I make at home with sponsor reads in the same time?" and not "How many pennies will YouTube share with me from AdSense?"

3 hours ago, kye said:

Then they get the darn thing and realise: 1) pure cinema isn't magically channelled onto the media card, and 2) it's a PITA to use.

I'm slightly susceptible to this "RED fever" myself - I'll think of the images coming off the Komodo and how stunning they were, and start thinking about how maybe I could use it, and then I remember that literally almost everything about it is completely wrong for me.....  but part of me still wants one!

I have terrible news for you.  The Komodo-X, at least, is just as easy to use as many of my other cameras, right down to having mediocre autofocus/face tracking (I'd say a little below Fuji level, definitely not Canon/Nikon).  I never used the OG Komodo, but enough is similar that I'd assume it's about the same, generally.

(That's not to say you should get one - just that usability is really pretty alright)

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, MrSMW said:

A. Authenticate and market yourself further and gain more subs = more Yo’Tube €£$

Another aspect of "authenticating & marketing yourself" is if you're a "brand ambassador" who gets flown by them internationally for launches, then you're now a lot more legit in the eyes of clients / directors / agencies / producers, and you've upped your hireability a lot. 

I'd say that's a massively more valuable outcome for many of these smaller youtube channels, who are getting very little if any money from YouTube subs / views.  

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

I've traveled all over the United States but I had virtually no time to actually enjoy it. There are cities I've been to literally four dozen times that I've seen very little of, because I had MAYBE 2 or 3 hours of leisure time if I was lucky and the rest were 12+ hour days in a venue doing production set up and filming. Most of my time not at work was spent in a car, hotel, or airport. I guarantee these YouTubers got more time to check out Japan during one of these trips than I got to check out Philly, Chicago, Los Angeles, etc. in the dozens of times each that I was paid to be there to work.

Exactly! I was overseas for a month working on a feature film and I barely got a second to myself to enjoy the trip itself. It was very much a trip for work. 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I'm not really that surprised about people switching away from RED in seemingly odd situations because I think that RED holds this strange place for many as a "fantasy camera".  There is a little bit of "one day I'll save up and buy an Alexa" on YT, and maybe a little bit for the higher end Sony cameras, but "one day I'll own a RED camera!!!" is a big theme on YT.

Then they get the darn thing and realise: 1) pure cinema isn't magically channelled onto the media card, and 2) it's a PITA to use.

Yeah, I suspect that a lot of people get a rude shock when their fantasy doesn't mean reality. 

And the release of the Komodo & Raven, plus the general march of time (which has made older RED DSMC1 bodies very affordable), has pushed a lot of REDs into the reach of almost "affordability" for many indie enthusiasts / semi pros / aspiring pros.  

We'll perhaps see the same happen with ARRI as, especially if an ARRI Mini can drop under US$10K in the next couple of years (which maaaybe it might, especially if the recession drags itself out for that entire length of time).

  

1 hour ago, Dave Maze said:

Hopefully we remained as true as can be here. We tried to share our honest thoughts. Neither one of us would buy this camera with our own money at the moment either. It's too expensive for a fun camera for us. But for some people it may be worth it

What is your current "fun camera"? 

In some hypothetical world where you lost everything, but insurance pays you out, so you can start out again from scratch rebuying whatever, then what "fun camera" would you get? 

 

[Eric Calabros]

We've been told Sony eye AF is way ahead of Nikon and others. Someone at DPR  had a issue with Z8 eye AF. Another guy tried to test it in the similar scenario that guy encountered the problem. Confirmed the issue, then compared that with a Canon and a Sony camera in exactly same situation. Sony and Nikon performance in low light was close to each other but acted differently, Canon was better than both, and never focused on wrong eye or eyelashes. Would this convince me to switch to Canon? No. But I want to know what my next camera CAN'T do. Maybe I decide to wait a bit longer to upgrade.

[kye]

51 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I have terrible news for you.  The Komodo-X, at least, is just as easy to use as many of my other cameras, right down to having mediocre autofocus/face tracking (I'd say a little below Fuji level, definitely not Canon/Nikon).  I never used the OG Komodo, but enough is similar that I'd assume it's about the same, generally.

I don't know about the Komodo-X, so maybe some of these considerations are different, but the sorts of things I was thinking about were:

• Long startup times
• Poor non-native ISO performance
• Lower resolution outputs crop into the sensor, so if you want to shoot in anything less than 871K then all of a sudden your whole lens collection has shifted FOVs, and your 6K RAW files are ridiculous if you're shooting for socials which are 1080p max and people are watching on their phones
• Higher frame rates are only available in lower resolutions, so a FPS change is now a lens change, which is a DOF change, and might be an exposure change, which combined with poor-non-native ISO performance is a lighting change......

These probably aren't a big deal for anyone who already use cinema cameras, but lots of these folks saving up for years to finally buy a RED came from the high-end cameras of the time like GH5, C70, 1DXii, etc, which are completely different beasts to use.

So it's really a cinema-camera vs video-camera type of thing, and lots of people aren't shooting in controlled situations either so the struggle is real.