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Andrew Reid

Did Canon market the EOS R5 at video pros? Yes.

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Exactly what Canon knew or intended, I have no idea, but pretty sure it wasn’t what has unfolded over the last couple of weeks.

I have never owned a Canon before but a pairing of R5 or R6 with a couple of lenses ie, a serious investment was on the cards for 2021.

In it’s current state, zero chance.

They stand a good chance of going the same way as Olympus if they do not change the way they operate.

It’s just a bizarre situation and unless they can find an in-house fix for the overheating, Sony’s A74 will put the Canon siblings to sleep, shut their coffin lid and bury them 6 feet under.

And then there is still Nikon and Fuji waiting in the wings and even Panasonic if they had half a brain would rush out phase detect AF.

But most of the known world is either broken or nuts right now so who knows what anyone will do, but somebody please get it right.

And that’s the thing...I don’t think anyone expects utter perfection that can never be beaten, but instead we just want an uncompromised hybrid that doesn’t have at least one glaring issue.

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9 hours ago, Mandalorian said:

What I don't get is why they didn't put in some form of passive cooling system into the R5 and R6?

Because Tilta bribed the Canon management, so they could sell this themselves:
https://tilta.com/2020/07/tiltaing-camera-cage-for-canon-r5/

 

9 hours ago, Mandalorian said:

Thin copper heat sink, thermal pad on the processor, water poof vents, etc...this doesn't cost much and would greatly improve recording times.


Adds extra bulk, would turn off many non-videographer buyers. Not everyone wants their camera to be as big as a S1H. 

 

7 hours ago, wobba said:

Lame AF performance of the S1H is a showstopper for many. 


Haven't been following carefully the S1H AF performance, but I've been following all the G9 AF performance with the firmware updates it has good. Seems like the Panasonic G9 autofocus has got to a point I'd regard it as worth the extra money over a Panasonic G85 (but then again if I get the G85 cheap enough, I'd take it! Especially as I usually shoot with the SLR Magic 8mm f4 manual lens. Almost bought locally a G85 last night for NZ$600, but a friend beat me to it). 
 

8 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Buy an S1H.

It's actually a bummer to see so many youtubers/bloggers/influences/blah supporting Canon and Sony as they continue to under-deliver. And here is Panasonic, who for 4-5 years now has been on an absolute roll (GH5 > GH5s > EVA-1 > S1 > S1H), giving us super reliable products with the best IQ and specs on the market with things we ask for (dual XRL, timecode, video tools).

Please, everyone buy Panasonic. I don't want to use a Sony in the future. And while I love the C200/C300III/C500II, I don't want a mirrorless camera that craps out after a few minutes. 

 

110% yes! 

Don't be like a wife in an abusive relationship who won't leave their husband who keeps on beating them every night. 

JUST. LEAVE!

Quite Canon. Leave them behind. 

Sony is kinda turning into "the new Canon".

While Panasonic has for years been delivering the goods, going way back to say a GH1 or even a DVX100!

And they've got great products all the way up to even the highest end with the Panasonic Varicam LT

Either that, or support the new kids on the block: Blackmagic, Kinefinity, Z Cam. 

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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

JUST. LEAVE!

Quite Canon. Leave them behind. 

Sony is kinda turning into "the new Canon".

While Panasonic has for years been delivering the goods, going way back to say a GH1 or even a DVX100!

And they've got great products all the way up to even the highest end with the Panasonic Varicam LT

Either that, or support the new kids on the block: Blackmagic, Kinefinity, Z Cam. 

Exactly my thoughts. Why stay or plan to buy a brand that don't really might what we need, a brand that have a record of having intentionnally crippled a lot of their products (all the companies do the same to protect their upper lines of products, just not the way Canon did it every time)?
Panasonic for years has delivered. Sony is finally listening again, even thought they're more conservative than Panasonic. 
i can't understand why would we support a company like Canon which don't give a shit about us, indie filmmakers !

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Other than investment, I'm not really sure why anyone has brand loyalty.

I am well aware that some people just buy another BMW every time because, "it's the best", but every time I wished to upgrade my 'whatever', I'd at least take a look around and see what else is out there as established benchmarks do change.

Now I can understand if you have a ton of glass etc and are invested in a system and/or because you are super-familiar with it, but blindly sticking with something just because of a sticker it has on it, that's where I personally draw the line.

I started out 20 years ago with Nikon because we'd used Nikon at college and university and because it was not Canon. I was prejudiced against Canon in those days and until fairly recent years actually, just because it was Canon.

I then moved to Fuji 8-9 years ago and looking back, it was a premature move and I got the results I did despite, not because of the tools.

But in this last couple of years, my mindset has become, 'best tool for the job' or rather, 'least compromised' because my ideal does not yet exist and I do not give two shits who makes it.

Right now, if I was investing in a system today, it would be S1H for video in one body and S1 the other for stills. Except for that damned AF issue. How big an issue it is, I'd have to test and living in rural South West France, that is not such and easy thing to do. So I can't invest in this system after all to Panasonic's loss. The size and cost also puts me off a bit but those 2 compromises are not deal-breakers for me.

Canon just dropped the ball and there are currently too many questions. Come Spring 2021, things may be different. Had the thing got some kind of cooling like the S1H, it would probably be my investment for 2021 and going forward.

The Sony A7Siii for video is growing on me and paired for stills with possibly the next A74, could be a contender. I've been a guilty of being a bit prejudiced against Sony for a while and that is partly based on some use because I found them a bit soulless. But the new boy is growing on me for my needs.

I would have invested in the Nikon Z6 system in the Spring of this year but for 2 factors; no 4k 60p 10 bit internal and Covid-2020.

Fuji excites me the most for what an XH2 could be...but that is the big question, - what it could be because if it isn't right and I suspect the next Z6s will be, I shall almost certainly go there.

But back to that original question which was did Canon market the R5 as a pro camera? 

For sure and the price only backed that up.

There is absolutely no question in my mind that this was intended as a pro hybrid machine and in it's current state, it 100% is not. Unless you are prepared to make excuses for it.

Is it useable?

Of course, under certain circumstances using only a limited part of it's spec but like the guy that buys the Ferrari and never takes it to a track day, - what's the point?

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Given Canon absolutely positioned this as pro tool I'm increasingly of the opinion this isn't a deliberate cripple hammer to protect the C line, but a development and engineering screw up. 

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12 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

100%

I hate seeing companies rewarded even when they cripple stuff, intentionally or not. 

Camera crippling, market splitting and camera model protecting tactics have been serving the camera industry well for 30+ years. Did anybody really expect it to end in 2020?

Truth is that camera crippling will continue long after we are all dead. Its too important of a business model for the camera companies to ever stop.

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It's a $4000 product for crying out loud. Problems like these get addressed during the initial stages of electrical design, and if they don't testing does.

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8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Adds extra bulk, would turn off many non-videographer buyers. Not everyone wants their camera to be as big as a S1H

How did Sony manage to do it in a smaller body at 614g versus R5 738g versus GH5 725g. There is no magic going on here.

You either invest in better manufacturing nodes and cooling designs or you don’t. Sony even advertised their cooling design in their promo material.

 

5 hours ago, Trankilstef said:

Panasonic for years has delivered.

Let’s be frank. If Panasonic adds PDAF to future GH and S series camera they would be much much more popular.

Would people even care about the R5 if the S1H had good PDAF to begin with? Probably not. They would be out shooting jobs with amazing color and would shrug their shoulders : “maybe next time Canon”.

Also lets be clear about another thing: almost everybody wants a competent, non-crippled, Canon hybrid mirrorless camera. Save for the extreme Sony fanboy loyalists who have somehow welded their identity with what camera they use.

I know people say AF doesn’t matter for certain jobs, but last time I checked there is a huge C-AF -> MF switch on the body. You don’t have to use it. But why wouldn’t you want competent AF in your toolbox?

AF has become one of the primary selling points of a camera. There is no question about this.

And the AF in the R5 and A7SIII is borderline set it and forget it good. Take a look at some of Brandon Li’s tests on Instagram (4K120p running at the camera and the focus pull is seamless and amazing and nigh perfect).

 

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Camera crippling, market splitting and camera model protecting tactics

Yes, but I think Canon may have misstepped off a cliff with this one. I do hope they can fix it and deliver what everybody wants.

If the R5 had the same overheating performance the A7SIII has it would outsell by a long shot.

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2 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Truth is that camera crippling will continue long after we are all dead. Its too important of a business model for the camera companies to ever stop.

Then camera companies can expect to go the way of the dodo because ultimately if you shaft people long enough, they turn around and say, "well fuck you matey".

The simple reality is cameras are being sold in increasingly lower numbers year on year directly in comparison to how phone tech improves year on year.

We are heading towards 'phones'...or perhaps we will need to start calling them 'general purpose devices' or something shortly (if not already) that can take on the current crop of perhaps not dedicated cine cameras, but many hybrids.

It's evolve or die.

Serve the market or die.

You can only ignore the market for so long or die.

I couldn't replace my current work cameras with phones in anything but an emergency...but we are not far off now.

There will be a market for dedicated cine cameras for a longer time yet, but that market will be tiny compared to global camera sales to the general public and we'd probably end up with just 2-3 main rivals within the next few years.

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R5 will be a great hit with Hollywood productions. A perfect companion camera to Arri or Red, costing a fraction, weighing nothing (drones).

The IBIS replaces the steadicam, the F2 / 28-70 is like  a set of top primes. In the standard 4k/24, R5 records for hours. When FX/greenscreen is needed-

8k raw kicks in. Overheating? The length of the average take is 1-2 minutes. The  breaks between takes  can be really long. You need to sacrifice a camera?

Ridiculos cheap. Need 10-20 units for the big battle, fights, crashes, explosions  or chases? - no problem.  SloMo - check. Arctic shooting - love it.

Ergonomics - check.  Cinema verite onobtrusivness - check. Run-and gun - check. Etc, etc etc. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Nugat said:

R5 will be a great hit with Hollywood productions. A perfect companion camera to Arri or Red, costing a fraction, weighing nothing (drones).

The IBIS replaces the steadicam, the F2 / 28-70 is like  a set of top primes. In the standard 4k/24, R5 records for hours. When FX/greenscreen is needed-

8k raw kicks in. Overheating? The length of the average take is 1-2 minutes. The  breaks between takes  can be really long. You need to sacrifice a camera?

Ridiculos cheap. Need 10-20 units for the big battle, fights, crashes, explosions  or chases? - no problem.  SloMo - check. Arctic shooting - love it.

Ergonomics - check.  Cinema verite onobtrusivness - check. Etc, etc etc. 

 

These folk here can’t understand that.  The average shot in a commercial is about a second .

i think their brains are hit with the Almighty  ‘cripple hammer “ which they refer to constantly.

i can’t wait to see the.great creative work done with this awesome tool. 
And it will be .

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"I'm looking forward to all these arctic based movies."

That was a special joke for the  drama production pros. Glad you got it. Some "Terror" arctic scenes (the final eps) were shot in Croatia in scorching heat. The takes lasted under a minute, the breakes up to an hour.

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Peter McCannons 48 part special exploring the lives of Eskimos should be awesome.

Might take him a while though, waiting for the R5 to cool down between takes.

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6 minutes ago, Nugat said:

R5 will be a great hit with Hollywood productions. A perfect companion camera to Arri or Red, costing a fraction, weighing nothing (drones).

The IBIS replaces the steadicam, the F2 / 28-70 is like  a set of top primes. In the standard 4k/24, R5 records for hours. When FX/greenscreen is needed-

8k raw kicks in. Overheating? The length of the average take is 1-2 minutes. The  breaks between takes  can be really long. You need to sacrifice a camera?

Ridiculos cheap. Need 10-20 units for the big battle, fights, crashes, explosions  or chases? - no problem.  SloMo - check. Arctic shooting - love it.

Ergonomics - check.  Cinema verite onobtrusivness - check. Run-and gun - check. Etc, etc etc. 

 

This is hilarious... I love a bit of fantasy in my life... now let's wake up and remember we are talking about a Canon camera. 

I don't see Netflix or any major studio adding this to their list of approved cameras.  And big productions have no time to pander to cameras such as these.  Why would anyone use a camera that could become a brick after an hour of use, even with 1 to 2 min takes.  Even switching it on, leaving it in a warm room and adjusting the camera settings is adding to that ticking clock and the more takes you do, even switching it on and off will reduce your time down the moment you hit record.  The cool down period is enormous.  Who says the breaks between takes are always that long.  Some simple scenes take 15 or more takes, shot consecutively.  The R5 would be hotter than an oven by then.

When you have choices like the S1H, the issue of a lack of AF on it for large production companies is basically void, when they're using Alexa.  It would be a much better choice as it has features like timecode which is more useful to productions than 8K that overheats.  

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4 minutes ago, Nezza said:

Peter McCannons 48 part special exploring the lives of Eskimos should be awesome.

Might take him a while though, waiting for the R5 to cool down between takes.

Seriously now. When you really shoot in the arctic you need professionals to help you, also with the choice of gear. Eg. this company (no connection)

is highly recommended.

https://arctickingdom.com/arctic-film/

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23 minutes ago, Leica50mm said:

These folk here can’t understand that.  The average shot in a commercial is about a second .

You think cameras are switched on for only a second, just because a second of it is used in the finished video... er no..  Plus cameras are switched on before the record button is pressed.  And left on to review the footage in some cases.  All adds up in the end, reducing your recording limit everytime you start your next take. 

Then you have external monitoring, which is ideal in these productions and that mini HDMI is a clumsy port for that.  I've used one before on my GH4 and its rubbish.  A7sIII and S1H have at least a proper HDMI connector.

I think some here are trying to invent scenarios where this camera can be used.  Most though are situations where Productions crews would be using a dedicated video camera anyway.  

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13 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

This is hilarious... I love a bit of fantasy in my life... now let's wake up and remember we are talking about a Canon camera. 

I don't see Netflix or any major studio adding this to their list of approved cameras.  And big productions have no time to pander to cameras such as these.  Why would anyone use a camera that could become a brick after an hour of use, even with 1 to 2 min takes.  Even switching it on, leaving it in a warm room and adjusting the camera settings is adding to that ticking clock and the more takes you do, even switching it on and off will reduce your time down the moment you hit record.  The cool down period is enormous.  Who says the breaks between takes are always that long.  Some simple scenes take 15 or more takes, shot consecutively.  The R5 would be hotter than an oven by then.

When you have choices like the S1H, the issue of a lack of AF on it for large production companies is basically void, when they're using Alexa.  It would be a much better choice as it has features like timecode which is more useful to productions than 8K that overheats.  

All Hollywood producers here. Chapeau bas.

Here's some movies  using gopros, David Cronenberg, Ridley Scott, Steven Soderbergh... (Netflix too: "Face 2 Face", all camerawork).

https://filmdaily.co/obsessions/best-movies-made-with-gopros

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