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Andrew Reid

Sigma Fp Review - Part 2 - A few bugs you need to know, and comparison to Leica SL2

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Two of the most unique cameras on the market today are both L-mount with 10bit capabilities in 4K. The Sigma Fp of course shoots Cinema DNG 4K RAW at up to 12bit to SSD via USB C and 8bit RAW internally. The Leica SL2 shoots very high quality 10bit 4K LOG internally with more of a passing resemblance to Arri Alexa colour science and LOG profile.

I thought I'd get to know the two, if that's the case!

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Thanks for posting this so more awareness is created, I also hope the next firmware will come soon.

Fixes I look forward to:

1: exposure preview bug in stills

2: assigning the record button to a custom function

3: cdng playback

4: faster panning the screen in playback when zoomed in ( with the wheel control )

5: Use the Af-on button with auto focus as the Af button and when using manual mode as the magnify button.

6: turn off noise reduction

7: display the hdmi with overlays in 16:9 ( right now its outputting 4:3 when using overlays )

8: make 12 bit uhd with 25 fps possible.

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Would definitely be nice to have more assignable buttons. The 4-way d-pad and AEL button, perhaps also Tone and Colour are not programmable at the moment... Well, the AEL button is but only AE related stuff and focus magnification, that's it.

I'd like also to be able to assign shutter button to take stills in Cine mode, and in stills mode assign video mode button to something else entirely.

The SL2 also has a lack of func. buttons but gets around it with a very clever menu system and User profiles. I can flick through my user profiles for different video modes and LOG at a single touch of a button and wheel of a dial.

----

I am thinking of making a Review template on EOSHD so I can give an at-a-glance summary of a camera, and a review sections drop down box like DPReview reviews. Open to suggestions. The colour-coded summary table could cover as an example:

Max resolution, max frame rate, sensor size (i.e. 4K/60p, FF)
Max bitrate, codec options (ALL-I, Long GOP, 400Mbit)
Max bit-depth (10bit)
RAW video (Yes, external)
Media type (SD)
Low light cam? ISO 6400 maximum usable
Rolling shutter: Lower than average, average, higher than average
Autofocus: Phase-detect in video mode
AF reliable?: Yes
IBIS: Yes
Menus: Bad / average / good
Battery: Bad / average / good
Build: Bad / average / good
Character and "feel": Generic / OK / Special
Colour science / skintones: Bad, modifiable to good / average / good / Alexa style good
LOG: Yes/no
View Assist: Yes/no
LUT preview: Yes/no
Rec. limit: 29 min
EVF: Yes / no
 

And so on...

Would be good to have a database of cameras too, in future.

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First train picture of the window is very nice. Dramatic and moody.

Let me guess, Sony Semi. refuses to license PDAF to Leica too? Do they get shafted because they occasionally sit next to Panasonic at the lunch table?

I gotta say the SL2 is much more interesting to me than the Fp, except for the cost of course. The difference in 4K quality kinda shocked me as well as the option of 5K 10-bit. I would like to see the SL2 compared to the S1H. Whose got 10K laying around?

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@Andrew Reid, maybe what has been noted in this collaborative Google sheet should be included in your bug report to Sigma:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FUt1bfhWYftUhlABkO91goSNEYuPZzlrxmOVGDJnQ7E/edit?usp=sharing

 

general (both stills & video)

  • Touch screen to move zoom centre
  • Touch for QS

video specific

  • audio level adjustment is deeply buried in a submenu
  • audio levels cannot be set to a low level
  • RAW clipping indicators
  • 12bit linear RAW at 25p
  • 12bit as 10bit + curve
  • 24fps not supported
  • DCI aspect ratios not supported
  • Black level changes during recording at certain ISOs on firmware 1.01
  • support USB Audio DAC
  • video recording unresponsive after using UVC

still photo specific

  • exposure compensation not easily available in M mode
  • no DOF preview. lens always preview and focus at wide open.
  • Manual focus exposure preview is not correct
  • Magnifier location select with touch

2 - Feature requests

Operation

  • allow af-on button when in manual focus mode
  • allow 2 second timer for movies. To disable shake at the beginning of the shot when on tripod
  • allow manual focus override when in autofocus mode
  • allow change of focus direction
  • linear mode for focussing
  • Ability to assign functions to left and right side of function wheel.
  • Allow the record button to be used for custom functions

Display

  • magnify during movie recording
  • magnify time after touching lens 0.5 seconds
  • zebra and focus peaking at the same time
  • Proper RAW histogram option, like RED cameras have
  • Ability to vertically flip the screen, for use with a mirror to shoot twin-lens reflex camera-style.

Color

  • LUT support / bake LUT in-camera

Recording formats:

  • 10 bit non linear raw internal
  • 10 bit non linear raw external
  • 12 bit raw at 25 frames per second
  • lossless compressed raw
  • 10 bit MOV recording, HEVC
  • True 24 frames per sesond option

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30 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

First train picture of the window is very nice. Dramatic and moody.

Let me guess, Sony Semi. refuses to license PDAF to Leica too? Do they get shafted because they occasionally sit next to Panasonic at the lunch table?

I gotta say the SL2 is much more interesting to me than the Fp, except for the cost of course. The difference in 4K quality kinda shocked me as well as the option of 5K 10-bit. I would like to see the SL2 compared to the S1H. Whose got 10K laying around?

I have a Panasonic S1H on loan at the moment along with the Panasonic S 50mm F1.4, so there will definitely be some comparisons and a full S1H review on the way soon. Just need something to shoot with it. A bit cold, wintery and dead where I am at the moment and not much going on creatively. Maybe a trip to Spain or Berlin will liven things up!

31 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

First train picture of the window is very nice. Dramatic and moody.

Yeah, that is a screen grab from the full frame 4K 60p. Detail in that mode is nearly as good as it is in 10bit 4K 24p.

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All other bodies disable flash w/ electronic shutter.

This one suppossedly allows flash at 1/30s or less. 

If this could be somehow increased to at least 1/125s, it would be good.

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9 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I am thinking of making a Review template on EOSHD so I can give an at-a-glance summary of a camera, and a review sections drop down box like DPReview reviews. Open to suggestions. The colour-coded summary table could cover as an example:

<snip>

And so on...

Would be good to have a database of cameras too, in future.

Great idea.  Ken Rockwell has done a similar thing with this reviews, and it's really useful because he doesn't forget anything, so if you want to know if a lens has focus breathing or how much it weighs etc then you know that if he's reviewed it then it'll be listed.  For that reason I will often see if he's reviewed something before I google for other reviews which may or may not specify something, so I think it would help the site :) 

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Can't wait for the Leica SL in the Scottish Highlands! We visited Scotland in January couple of years ago and got lucky with the weather for at least half of our stay having both sunny and snowy days.

 

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21 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Would definitely be nice to have more assignable buttons. The 4-way d-pad and AEL button, perhaps also Tone and Colour are not programmable at the moment... Well, the AEL button is but only AE related stuff and focus magnification, that's it.

I'd like also to be able to assign shutter button to take stills in Cine mode, and in stills mode assign video mode button to something else entirely.

The SL2 also has a lack of func. buttons but gets around it with a very clever menu system and User profiles. I can flick through my user profiles for different video modes and LOG at a single touch of a button and wheel of a dial.

----

I am thinking of making a Review template on EOSHD so I can give an at-a-glance summary of a camera, and a review sections drop down box like DPReview reviews. Open to suggestions. The colour-coded summary table could cover as an example:

Max resolution, max frame rate, sensor size (i.e. 4K/60p, FF)
Max bitrate, codec options (ALL-I, Long GOP, 400Mbit)
Max bit-depth (10bit)
RAW video (Yes, external)
Media type (SD)
Low light cam? ISO 6400 maximum usable
Rolling shutter: Lower than average, average, higher than average
Autofocus: Phase-detect in video mode
AF reliable?: Yes
IBIS: Yes
Menus: Bad / average / good
Battery: Bad / average / good
Build: Bad / average / good
Character and "feel": Generic / OK / Special
Colour science / skintones: Bad, modifiable to good / average / good / Alexa style good
LOG: Yes/no
View Assist: Yes/no
LUT preview: Yes/no
Rec. limit: 29 min
EVF: Yes / no
 

And so on...

Would be good to have a database of cameras too, in future.

 

1. I would recommend having the same scale for any criteria. Either 1 to 3 stars, or 1 to 5 stars, or bad/average/good/great so there is consistency. Right now you have 1 scale for AF (Yes/No), 1 scale for menus (bad average good), 1 scale for colour, etc. 
AF reliable yes/no is pretty vague. Clearly having 4 or 5 scale would be better. 

2.  I would recommend separate the specs category (Max resolution, bitrate,...) with the "review/appreciation" category, maybe into 2 different paragraphs in your review of the camera. 
That way we clearly identify facts/specs and your review/appreciation/ 

3. I would add other criteria, such as "Body ergonomics" and other specs such as ND filter / sensor (APSC,FF,...) 

Overall, it's an excellent idea. If you can do that for all the most recent cameras to start a database that would be a great and valuable addition to the website for sure. 

 

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

You saw a lot more than me!

Superb shooting. Were the drone shots the Leica SL as well?

Drone shots I would bet DJI Phantom or equivalent. 

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5 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Maybe add a community score too where the community submits their score on it. 

That's good idea.

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First of All, Thank you Andrew for the amount of work, time and passion that you put in all your reviews.

Not only is instructive for newbies but also very informative for professionals. Bravo.

About the SL2 vs S1h:

 

Video

> could you test highlights handling of the two cameras? Latitude on the highlights?

> SL 2 more issue , maybe doing a test with/wothout a 1/4 Hollywood BM if you have it. 

> Compressed video vs external recorder any noticeable difference in grading/ high iso.

> S1H color science difference/ latitude handling difference (I mean allocation of stops to highlights, shadow) when recorded internally vs raw output with Atomos Prores.

> SL 2 Rolling Shutter.

 

PHOTO

> what is the max shutter speed usable in multi shot mode/high megapixel for both cameras. (aka could that mode be used in studio for a fashion shoot using continuous light not strobe?).

 

I know all of this is a lot to ask but if you have a chance it'd be great.

 

Thank you again

 

Ciao

 

 

 

 

 

 

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You say the Leica is almost a dead ringer for Alexa, eh? That’s a pretty hefty claim considering the Arri’s now decade-long reign at the throne of digital motion picture sensors. I’d be genuinely interested in a breakdown of the Leica’s latitude and highlight handling, as I think those are the aspects of Arri’s image which competitors still fall short on. It is possible to re-map densities, colors, and tailor denoise/sharpening appropriately to get close to Arri’s look from any high quality camera file these days, but if the latitude and roll-off are not attainable at the sensor-level, the end result still falls notably short.

I am beginning to lose faith that any of the current manufacturers will ever truly crack that egg. At this point for me to ditch just sticking with my oh-so-affordable Pocket 4K, one of them would have to make an Alexa-competitive full-frame camera with DPAF, in the sub-$4K range. That S1H is so close, but the AF is once again a crying shame... if the Leica truly is knocking at Arri’s door as a full-frame 10-bit camera, color me EXTREMELY tempted. That would make it the Poor Man’s Mini LF, which is a huge deal even without good AF. 
 

If Metabones would get off their butts and make an L-Mount to Medium Format Speed Booster, I’d be into one of the new Panny/Sigma/Leica bodies in a heartbeat. Ive been looking at the Kipon Baveyes, but apparently it has some distortion, which makes it a zero-sum-gain IMO. At that point, may as well use faster full-frame glass.

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I think the SL2 is a sleeper for video. I have been looking at more footage and its like a Panasonic S1R done right. I love a lot of what Panasonic does but sometimes their image is just...to clean, and hence suffers from that digital look SooC.

The SL2 doesn't do that aggressive noise reduction and with L-log and Leica color mojo the footage looks incredible. Biggest downside is moire and the just awful AF.

Blackmagic is incredibly organic looking as well. But their cameras are just..butt ugly and build quality has been hit and miss and of course no AF. The price is right, so we can't have it all, I guess.

This leaves Canon. IF Canon released a capable 4K60p camera with DPAF and their wonderful (and easy) SooC goodness it would be a huge hit. I rip on Canon a lot but I would buy that camera and sell my Panny gear because of the sheer convenience and reliability of SooC goodness and best in class AF that only requires a slight massage in post production.

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