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Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

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4 hours ago, DBounce said:

This looks like a pretty legitimate article... so the "game changer", the "cinema dream" is 6k @ 24 fps? A feature no one was asking for?

No flip screen, no PDAF and no built in ND? Disappointing. I think Panasonic will remain a distant last place sales wise. No one had a problem with the image quality of the S1. Personally, I really like the image of the S1. What the majority of people had a problem with was the contrast detect AF and the lack of a flip screen. Built in ND, while nice to have, was never expected on a hybrid... so it didn't lose points for lacking it. Leaving out the two most requested features is a huge disappointment... again!

Oh well, nothing to see folks, just a more usable 6k photo mode... that no one asked for.

I agree most including me do not care about 6K. 4K is good enough today. 

I agree the AF is awful on the S1 as it is on the GH and I have said that for years now: we need good video AF on hybrids. 
Way more important for me than a flip screen: a good 4K60P 10 bits in FF. No FF hybrid does that as of today. Not even 4K60 FF 8 bits. 

I am hopeful the A7SIII will bring the above PLUS an insanely good AF (when seeing performance from A6400 consumer camera). Way more excited for that than the L mount system that has no lens, is way overpriced (based on S1 price and the rumored S1H price) and their shitty prehistoric ridiculous AF. 
Thing is, what is Sony waiting???

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17 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

I am hopeful the A7SIII will bring the above PLUS an insanely good AF (when seeing performance from A6400 consumer camera). 

I was in a shop a few days ago where they had an A6400 attached to a screen doing a permanent Eye AF demo.

I had a great time trying to catch it out with the whole leaning in and out of frame, glasses on/glasses off, covering my eyes with my hand and so on and it NEVER missed a beat.

As much as Panasonic get slaughtered for their AF performance (and I spent a good hour comparing the AF of the S1 against the Z6 and EOS-R in the same shop where it was beaten but not totally embarrassed I have to say) we really should acknowledge that Sony have some serious witchcraft going on with their AF.

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5 hours ago, DBounce said:

This looks like a pretty legitimate article... so the "game changer", the "cinema dream" is 6k @ 24 fps? A feature no one was asking for?

No flip screen, no PDAF and no built in ND? Disappointing. I think Panasonic will remain a distant last place sales wise. No one had a problem with the image quality of the S1. Personally, I really like the image of the S1. What the majority of people had a problem with was the contrast detect AF and the lack of a flip screen. Built in ND, while nice to have, was never expected on a hybrid... so it didn't lose points for lacking it. Leaving out the two most requested features is a huge disappointment... again!

Oh well, nothing to see folks, just a more usable 6k photo mode... that no one asked for.

Seems you are massively jumping the gun based with these assumptions. It doesn't sound like press text to me. It sounds like some French guy prematurely summarising a few key features before the embargo. It's not an official press release or even close.

Also:

6K / 24p (in format 3: 2) or 5,9K / 30p (in format 16: 9)

Why would the 6K be 3:2 only?

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7 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Seems you are massively jumping the gun based with these assumptions. It doesn't sound like press text to me. It sounds like some French guy prematurely summarising a few key features before the embargo. It's not an official press release or even close.

Also:

6K / 24p (in format 3: 2) or 5,9K / 30p (in format 16: 9)

Why would the 6K be 3:2 only?

You are right. I am perhaps putting too much faith in the validity of this article. Honestly, I hope the new Panasonic is amazing. But if this article is genuine, and there is little beyond the 6k... then this camera would be very underwhelming. 

On the plus side, I’m sure Fuji will deliver on the XH2... whenever it comes out. And we still have the Nikon wild card. Sony will deliver on many fronts, but like Canon, they will omit just enough to fall short of total dominance. After all, they have their cinema line to think of.

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1 hour ago, wolf33d said:


Thing is, what is Sony waiting??? 

This is total speculation and I have no upfront knowledge, but I wouldn't be surprised that Sony's wait is because of design issues. If you look at what Panasonic has done with their L-mount series, it's to produce a bigger camera than Sony and I think Panasonic's main reason for this was heat dissipation. How many FF mirrorless cameras are that have 60fps 4k? Panasonic is the only player. (And it's cropped to APS-C). Does Canon do this? Yes, but not mirrorless. It's the bulky 1DX Mark II. How about Nikon? Nope. Sony? Nope. 

If and when Sony announces their next video-centric 4k mirrorless camera, it's going to have to be a new physical design. Sony has used the same chassis on the A7III, A7RIII and A9 but I will bet you that the next A7S style camera will have to be a new design because I can't see them not providing 4k 60p or some other higher-end spec than what's out there now in the FF mirrorless world. It just can't happen in a A7III-style body. It's got to be a totally new design and that's why it has taken Sony such a long time. Heat dissipation is a huge deal.

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9 hours ago, Laurier said:

Yes but Arri is also renting equipement itself to large productions, They are able to offer complete seamless solutions.
Red is selling luxury marketing, including David Fincher who they sponsor .

Nothing wrong with that, it s a business after all, but I feel red is in a awkward position now,  I think that netflix trend with red is going to fade now that Arri have the LF and the LF mini, those camera are still very recent and that article don t reflect that.

Canon and sony have a more define cine/broadcast department that I believe is profitable overall ( I see FS7 and C300 everywhere) Panasonic is more blurry with that I find.
Blackmagic are outputting cinema gear at consumer price and also sell a full post production system to go with it, I think their approach is different , people buy because it s cheap and they are willing to try the product, so whether the client is satisfied or not they still make sales. 

What is the story between Red and David Fincher? Or Red and Steven Soderbergh for that matter? The Red One was a nightmare on Che and he stuck with it.

Where do you see FS7s and C300s? Smaller production companies? On reality tv? I've been a bit out of the loop for the past year or so, haven't been on set much. These are the cameras I see least and get footage from least often, but are also the form factors I like working with most. 

30 minutes ago, ajay said:

This is total speculation and I have no upfront knowledge, but I wouldn't be surprised that Sony's wait is because of design issues. If you look at what Panasonic has done with their L-mount series, it's to produce a bigger camera than Sony and I think Panasonic's main reason for this was heat dissipation.

Yeah it seems like Panasonic has a big advantage in image processing. I wonder how and why? You wouldn't expect a smaller company to. The GH5 and SL1s are monsters relative to what anyone else is doing. Even the EVA1 is doing 6k/60p processing then downscaling to 4k.  I'm not as cynical as most here–I think Canon and Sony (and Arri) are being held back by power and heat limitations, rather than intentional crippling. Canon's cinema cameras have massive fans. I don't know if the A7SII is as bad but the A7S really likes to overheat. I wonder where Panasonic gets their competitive edge here. 

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Based on just what we know, if Sony released this exact same camera but as the A7sIII, people would be heaping praise on them. 

- first mirrorless to offer full frame 60p in 4k

- 10 bit for 24-60p in 4K (first ever) 

- very very usable IBIS (unlike Sony’s)

- Anamorphic shooting 

- and oh, btw, the first camera to shoot full frame 6k under $30k... 

- 14 stops dynamic range with Panasonic’s color science (which is way nicer than Sony).

Still hoping for internal NDs, but we’ll see what else they put in here. This thing is PACKED full of features. 

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1 hour ago, DBounce said:

You are right. I am perhaps putting too much faith in the validity of this article. Honestly, I hope the new Panasonic is amazing.

You've been very negative about it from the start, I feel. Just let them announce it and then react. Oh, and be realistic with your expectations. Panasonic, for better or worse, isn't going to be ditching CDAF anytime soon, and if they did I don't think they'd do it for just one camera in an entire lineup. And given the S1 and the S1R don't have flip out screens, it's unlikely that the S1H will. Is that a bummer? Yeah, but it's just the way things are. 

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I am suddenly left wondering about a few things:

1. Is it the Same sensor as the S1 (with a Larger body and a better processor) or do they really have a new sensor? 

2. If this Already Has VLog with 14 stops of dynamic  range, why is the VLog on the S1 coming in July??? Plus will that VLog (on the S1) also have 14 Stops of Dynamic Range?

3. The S1H seems more geared for Full Frame Anamorphic(?) and 6k video.

So, are there enough improvements on the S1H to actually have a completely new camera for it, and could some of this not have been possible on the S1? Plus while rumprs claim that the larger body will help with better dissipation, I remember reading, somewhere, that overheating may shut down the camera temporarily(?)

 

I am guessing, the larger size may have more spaces for more ports and better storage among other things. Panasonic manages space rather well on its cameras, and they aren't larger without genuine purpose. 

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41 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Yeah it seems like Panasonic has a big advantage in image processing. I wonder how and why? You wouldn't expect a smaller company to. The GH5 and SL1s are monsters relative to what anyone else is doing. Even the EVA1 is doing 6k/60p processing then downscaling to 4k.  I'm not as cynical as most here–I think Canon and Sony (and Arri) are being held back by power and heat limitations, rather than intentional crippling. Canon's cinema cameras have massive fans. I don't know if the A7SII is as bad but the A7S really likes to overheat. I wonder where Panasonic gets their competitive edge here. 

Well I think one of the main reasons Panasonic gets their competitive edge is they were smart. lucky to have had the GH style camera body to start with, and now the S1 body, both being as some people complain, being too big, large, heavy. Well it is proving to be a god send for Panny as everyone, like it or not, is going to have to come up with a larger body to deal with the excess heat. Panasonic is on a roll, but I still worry their luck is running out. This whole FF field is just Way to crowded to have any of them make a decent amount of money doing it.

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37 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

- and oh, btw, the first camera to shoot full frame 6k under $30k...  

Depends on when it's released. Z Cam has FF 6k60 with a planned October release. But I agree with everything you say. It shouldn't be taken lightly that this thing has specs well beyond any of the competition, as was the S1 for that matter.

 

And there are a lot of specs/features that we haven't heard anything about. Rolling shutter? Even if it gets down to ~10ms that would be huge over other FF cameras. How about timecode? Or something as simple as two 1/4-20 holes on the bottom? Nikon is the closest so far, with a 1/4-20 and a locator pin. What if they add a mini XLR like the P4k? A DC power input would streamline a rig. I know most of those probably won't be present, but it's worth waiting to see before dissing it. 6k might be a headline feature, but I'm more interested in the multitude of little things that would make my life easier.

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47 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

What is the story between Red and David Fincher? Or Red and Steven Soderbergh for that matter? The Red One was a nightmare on Che and he stuck with it.

Where do you see FS7s and C300s? Smaller production companies? On reality tv? I've been a bit out of the loop for the past year or so, haven't been on set much. These are the cameras I see least and get footage from least often, but are also the form factors I like working with most. 

Yeah it seems like Panasonic has a big advantage in image processing. I wonder how and why? You wouldn't expect a smaller company to. The GH5 and SL1s are monsters relative to what anyone else is doing. Even the EVA1 is doing 6k/60p processing then downscaling to 4k.  I'm not as cynical as most here–I think Canon and Sony (and Arri) are being held back by power and heat limitations, rather than intentional crippling. Canon's cinema cameras have massive fans. I don't know if the A7SII is as bad but the A7S really likes to overheat. I wonder where Panasonic gets their competitive edge here. 

He probably don t pay for the cameras and Red do custom builds for him ( also for Michael Bay), but David Fincher fit really well with the overall red branding, doing tools for bad boys.
You don t name a camera dragon/weapon and use indi/arthouse movies to promote it.

For the FS7 and C300, from decent size commercials sets, to well produced MV to people run and gunning in the street of London, interviews/corporate ect, on the top end I see mostly Alexa mini and some reds. But yeah , a lot of Fs7 here in london.

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12 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I think one of the main reasons Panasonic gets their competitive edge is they were smart. lucky to have had the GH style camera body to start with, and now the S1 body, both being as some people complain, being too big, large, heavy. Well it is proving to be a god send for Panny as everyone, like it or not, is going to have to come up with a larger body to deal with the excess heat. Panasonic is on a roll, but I still worry their luck is running out. This whole FF field is just Way to crowded to have any of them make a decent amount of money doing it.

But isn't it so that all technology is at market disposal? Matter is just ratio of what parts/knowledge to buy and what to put inside and how much to charge users base for it...

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Yeah the way I see it is Panasonic was for years, I know they have had a pretty big presence in Broadcast years ago, not sure about now, but to the average consumer Panasonic was seen as producing great gear and at a cheaper price, mostly because of the m4/3 mount than the other companies. Now they are to me pushing their luck at going up in price and charging, 2500 to maybe 4000 dollars plus for their"consumer" products. They may be heading for disaster in the long run. They are getting way of of my price range as of late I know that much.

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There will be no cheap "consumer" cameras in five years.  It will either be "wannabe professional", or professional cameras.  I know that's harsh, but with smartphones taking over photos and video, limited markets mean higher per unit costs for cameras.

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Probably I'm too idealist, but I firmly think that keeping and going on with once upon a time true and enough enthusiastic spirit is the most important. Isn't is so that this very forum started along with art-for-all liberation impulse given with ML Canon 5D II and, even more, with GH2? Comparatively, all movie makers world has been shaken than with quality of these cameras that stay within reach even to students and other talented dreamers... Tones of serious movies were shot with Canon as B, many as A camera (and most directors has to admit that public wouldn't notice if all works had been done with Canon), Upstream  Color was done with GH2 - because these camera indeed were comparatively so capable...  And now, it seems to me that all of us are little bit forgeting our dreamer's past - of course, now we can provide more money, now we can pay more, most of us listening GAS thirst and escaping from bore living - but comparatively equally capable successors of 5D and GH2 today don't live at home of Panasonic and Canon, simply because they don't care for that great past spirit which made them so beloved and popular.

Of course S1H or A7SIII or GH6 are/will be beast - but not  anymore for new generation of young dreamers. And me idealist feel it as a curse.

9 minutes ago, KC Kelly said:

There will be no cheap "consumer" cameras in five years.  It will either be "wannabe professional", or professional cameras.  I know that's harsh, but with smartphones taking over photos and video, limited markets mean higher per unit costs for cameras.

Sorry to ask/remind obvious - what about Pocket 4K?

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Yeah but you can't sell GH5s for more money than a FF camera is as of now. Even used the GH5s is more than a new FF camera. Panasonic is headed for a disaster doing that stuff. It is only a Very few people that are going to pay that much money. The Fuji XT-3, and now the Canon RS is WAY cheaper, are they better, I don't know, but they are nearly half the price. That is crazy when you look at it as a average consumer.

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Just now, webrunner5 said:

Yeah but you can't sell GH5s for more money than a FF camera is as of now. Even used the GH5s is more than a new FF camera. Panasonic is headed for a disaster doing that stuff. It is only a Very few people that are going to pay that much money. The Fuji XT-3, and now the Canon RS is WAY cheaper, are they better, I don't know, but they are nearly half the price.

Agree, that's what I think also - disaster, chasing just for more money now, losing clear distinctive spirit... even as a cleverer business strategy.

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35 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I think one of the main reasons Panasonic gets their competitive edge is they were smart. lucky to have had the GH style camera body to start with, and now the S1 body, both being as some people complain, being too big, large, heavy. Well it is proving to be a god send for Panny as everyone, like it or not, is going to have to come up with a larger body to deal with the excess heat. Panasonic is on a roll, but I still worry their luck is running out. This whole FF field is just Way to crowded to have any of them make a decent amount of money doing it.

I agree. There are a lot of new mounts and high end options out there, but the market overall seems to be shrinking quickly. I'm sure these companies have done their research and are moving upmarket for that specific reason, but I wonder for how long that's sustainable, and if there's already too much competition in a small market. Personally (despite owning lots of adapted Nikon manual focus lenses for EF-mount cameras) I buy into a system for the lenses, because then their cost is amortized over a longer period and I'm not constantly buying and reselling. It's hard for me to imagine what the L mount system or RF mount system looks like five years from now, though, which makes the steep entry price even more of a concern for me.

On the other hand, I would probably upgrade my Digital Rebel XT if Canon met Fujifilm's specs.

27 minutes ago, Laurier said:

He probably don t pay for the cameras and Red do custom builds for him ( also for Michael Bay), but David Fincher fit really well with the overall red branding, doing tools for bad boys.
You don t name a camera dragon/weapon and use indi/arthouse movies to promote it.

For the FS7 and C300, from decent size commercials sets, to well produced MV to people run and gunning in the street of London, interviews/corporate ect, on the top end I see mostly Alexa mini and some reds. But yeah , a lot of Fs7 here in london.

Well said. I bought Oakleys back in school and ended up looking like a dork. I think Bay and Fincher are great directors, but I look better in Ray Bans or Persol. (Same parent company in this case, I know.) I guess I will never be a cool kid. I couldn't afford a Red anyway.

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