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currensheldon

Where Is The MFT Cinema Camera? (Or Fuji X)

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Seems like it would be obvious, but will a MFT cinema camera (a mini EVA-1) ever come (not counting AF100 and JVC - both a bit old now)? The exact GH5 sensor (or GH5s) with all of the bells and whistles of a regular cinema camera (NDs, XLRs, 4-channel audio, etc) and true V-Log. Seems like this would sell great as Canon doesn’t seem to want to update the C100, Sony not giving the FS5 good 4K codecs.

I would looooove this. 

OR have Fuji make a min cinema camera with their perfect Super35 lens lineup for lightweight filmmaking.

Panasonic? Fuji? Olympus? 

Even all the 4/3 video cameras that come out (Pocket4K, EZ Cam, Sharp, etc) aren’t true video cameras with NDs and good audio.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Yeah we had the AF100 which was good for its time, then Panasonic in their infinite wisdom decided to make the Panasonic EVA1 only be EF mount. 
(plus like you said there is also the LS300, which to come from JVC of all people was a bit of a surprise)

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Just now, webrunner5 said:

People that buy Cine cameras want Nothing to do with IBIS. Micro jitters is a death wish problem that you Really don't need to add to already a lot of inherent problems for video.

Quite true. That’s why there are dozens of non IBIS cinema cameras to choose from. Don’t see why there can’t be one IBIS video camera though. 

Lots of professionals use a GH5 and its IBIS - and know when to turn it off and on depending on the shooting situation. 

I’m not asking for a cinema camera to shoot feature films on. I’m asking for a FS5/C100 workhorse MFT video camera (or Fuji X) with all the things video cameras have - and some tech transferred over from mirrorless cams. 

 

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5 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

 

Lots of professionals use a GH5 and its IBIS - and know when to turn it off and on depending on the shooting situation. 

 

You really can't totally turn it off, it still floats, that is why they came out with the GH5s. I think the Z6, Z7 has a way to lock the IBIS mechanism to help it a bit though.

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4 hours ago, currensheldon said:

I’m not asking for a cinema camera to shoot feature films on. 

 

Yes, because it is so obvious that it's impossible to shoot feature films with IBIS, as well as any part of it because every spectator immediately leave theater when notice that ugly micro jitters on screen.

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1 hour ago, Adam Kuźniar said:

You guys know that "cinema camera" doesn't mean it can only shoot for cinema? You can also make weddings, ads, youtube videos and more with it. And for these scenarios IBIS is super useful. 

That’s pretty much my point. People use cameras with IBIS for all sorts of stuff, as they do “cinema” or video cameras. 

A proper video camera with IBIS would be awesome. 

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23 hours ago, currensheldon said:

Seems like it would be obvious, but will a MFT cinema camera (a mini EVA-1) ever come (not counting AF100 and JVC - both a bit old now)? The exact GH5 sensor (or GH5s) with all of the bells and whistles of a regular cinema camera (NDs, XLRs, 4-channel audio, etc) and true V-Log. Seems like this would sell great as Canon doesn’t seem to want to update the C100, Sony not giving the FS5 good 4K codecs.

I would looooove this. 

OR have Fuji make a min cinema camera with their perfect Super35 lens lineup for lightweight filmmaking.

Panasonic? Fuji? Olympus? 

Even all the 4/3 video cameras that come out (Pocket4K, EZ Cam, Sharp, etc) aren’t true video cameras with NDs and good audio.

While I hear what you're saying...what you are asking for is a MFT 'broadcast camera'. Cinema cameras have never really cared for internal ND's, 4 channels of audio or great quality audio for that matter. 

I said it when the Pocket4k came out, but if Blackmagic released a Pocket4K Pro with internal ND's , a tilt-able screen, and a form factor more like a small FS5 or Or Canon XC line camera, they would see like hotcakes.......and maybe the should just call it the Blackmagic Pocket4k Pro. Don't use the words 'Cinema' or 'Broadcast' in the name at all. 

12 hours ago, Adam Kuźniar said:

You guys know that "cinema camera" doesn't mean it can only shoot for cinema? You can also make weddings, ads, youtube videos and more with it. And for these scenarios IBIS is super useful. 

I really don't agree with this. A Cinema Camera is made very differently to a camera you would use to shoot weddings. The Arri Alexa SXT for example, has most of the camera setting controls and LCD screen for checking settings, on the opposite side of the camera to where the DP or Operator is as the 1st AC generally changes these parameters.

A cinema cameras main focus is image quality. For example, the reason they generally don't have built in ND's is because a good quality ND filter set used in cinema, costs more than the Pocket4k or any other VDSLR alone. 

I see what you are saying, and while yes, you can use some cinema cameras like a Red (due to it's small form factor), to shoot weddings, I think people are really expecting one camera to do everything from shooting weddings to shooting feature films and to appeal to everybody which is just not going to happen any time soon, especially at the low end price point and with a form factor of a small VDSLR.

While sure, you can shoot a feature film for cinema screening on pretty much any modern day video camera (the Ursa Mini Pro has internal ND's as does the FS5 and both of those cameras would look fine on the big screen), we should stop using the term 'cinema camera' when what we are looking for is a small camera that is suitable for self shooting and has all the bells and whistles of a modern DSLR. In the same way as many people who pick up a DSLR call themselves 'DP's' when really, they have never had to plan lighting set-up's, direct a team of gaffers etc. We use these terms because they sound cool but it just causes confusion. Sure, its might be cool to say to the client that the camera you are using to shoot their wedding is what they shot 'XYZ blockbuster feature film' on, but is it the right tool for the job?

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Monopods work pretty well or a shoulder rig.

If you are just getting quick shots, which is pretty much what IBIS is useful for, stabilized lenses pretty much accomplish the same thing. 

This!

I have now told three friends with Pocket4K's to buy a monopod after they switched from VDSLR's with IBIS to the Pocket4K.

These friends had never used monopods before and all three came back to me after a day of shooting saying how amazed they were with how easy it was to shoot with and that they far preferred the subtle look of motion when using the monopod compared to when they shot with VDSL's that had IBIS. Monopods are great for quick shots and super versatile.

Get one with the three feet at the end like the Surui 204 series. 

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The Z cam E2, no internal ND's though. 

The FS5, is a pretty good choice if you can throw on an external recorder. 

The URSA mini 4.6k G2 is pretty darn good. 

8 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

 

This!

I have now told three friends with Pocket4K's to buy a monopod after they switched from VDSLR's with IBIS to the Pocket4K.

These friends had never used monopods before and all three came back to me after a day of shooting saying how amazed they were with how easy it was to shoot with and that they far preferred the subtle look of motion when using the monopod compared to when they shot with VDSL's that had IBIS. Monopods are great for quick shots and super versatile.

Get one with the three feet at the end like the Surui 204 series. 

Yeah I used a $25 monopod with a 250mm lens, lots of shots at the long end and got great shots. The lens had stabilization though. Still, was great for run and gun at a wedding. 

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This conversation is essentially a symptom of a rapidly converging industry.

A cinema camera was designed to be used on a large set with multiple operators and in a highly modular configuration with external everything.  They cost $100k+ weighed a ton and everyone was happy.
A home video camera that could fit in your pocket was designed to be used by one person, was fully self-contained, and would run all day on a battery.  They shot low quality 480p / 720p / 1080p, and everyone was happy.
A DSLR was designed to have interchangeable lenses, take nice photos, be used by a single user, and need accessories, filters, spare batteries, etc.  They cost $1k-$3k and everyone was happy.

Convergence #1: The DSLR revolution

The DSLR revolution began when the video functions of the home video camera got put into the DSLR camera.  All of a sudden video people were using DSLRs and enjoying the interchangeable lenses.  It meant that they had to fluff around with extra batteries and other accessories, but this was accepted as a necessary price to pay because you could get video with blurry-backgrounds, and that was like real cinema, so hooray!

People lamented that DSLRs didn't implement video functionality perfectly, which was often an overhang of the still image history of the DSLR, and wanted to have the best of the home video camera world they had come from, and the cinema camera world they looked longingly at from afar (with rose tinted glasses).  Completely spoiled, they moaned endlessly about the dreaded crop factor, the recording time limits, and the overheating.

Convergence #2: The cinema camera revolution

Advances in technology started to put cinema cameras within reach of the spoiled DSLR revolutionaries, and the heavy poor low-light multi-operator modular cameras started appearing at sizes, weights, and price-points that resembled DSLRs.  The "we want it all, we want it now" DSLR revolutionaries embraced the high image quality, ease of use, and simplicity of design of these new cameras, however they skipped straight over the fact that the industry had chopped of a zero off the price of these products and they lamented that they were modular, requiring rigging, external power, filters, whined that they weren't industry-leading in low-light performance, and some even criticised them for not being able to take still images.

Convergence #3: The smartphone revolution

Eventually, smartphones with vast arrays of individual camera/lens modules driven by AI engines replaced all but the most specialised cameras.  The camera forums heaved with devastated punters ranting incoherently that manufacturers reduce the cost of these technological marvels to $1.

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3 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

While I hear what you're saying...what you are asking for is a MFT 'broadcast camera'. Cinema cameras have never really cared for internal ND's, 4 channels of audio or great quality audio for that matter. 


Arri Mini LF, Alexa LF, AMIRA, Sony PMW-F3/F5/F55, VENICE, Panasonic Varicam S35 / LT , etc etc etc would all like to disagree with you!

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:


Arri Mini LF, Alexa LF, AMIRA, Sony PMW-F3/F5/F55, VENICE, Panasonic Varicam S35 / LT , etc etc etc would all like to disagree with you!

Ok, I should clarify, I was taking past tense as my comment would suggest. Yes, while the cinema cameras (not all the cameras you mention would be classed as 'Cinema Cameras'  but anyway.....) you mention do have internal ND's or the option to add single ND filters behind the lens, this is only starting to happen now so not sure you can expect all new cameras at the price points we are discussing here to have the same tech.

Just to specify some of the cameras you mention:

Alexa Mini, OK has internal Nd's but do you think the OP want's to use a 5 pin lemo breakout  cable for audio. Sure buy a Wooden camera XLR module but the Alexa doesn't come with good audio in mind out of the box to suit the self shooter. Even with the Wooden Camera XLR module, I wouldn't want to be a solo shooter using an Alexa Mini and expecting to plug mic's straight into the camera and get great, usable audio other than for a scratch track.

Alexa LF: You can place a single ND filter behind the lens but it is not as quick and easy to change like the filter wheel on a more broadcast oriented camera.   

Arri Amira: Arri designed this for a single operator. Not sure Arri market it as a Cinema camera but....

Sony F5, more aimed at the Broadcast market. It's a broadcast workhorse. 

Either way, I agree that it would be nice, but don't get angry when a company releases a 'Cinema Camera' and it doesn't have some of these features. 

 

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8 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The Z cam E2, no internal ND's though. 
 

This. I got my E2 earlier this week and it's fantastic. Still working out the rig and monitor situation though and haven't tried the audio yet but it has XLR in.

No internal NDs or IBIS, but then as others have said, these aren't common on 'cinema cameras'

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