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Panasonic announcing a full frame camera on Sept. 25???

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2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

That is my big question, is the SL mount properly big enough to hold FF sensors with space for IBIS?

We know Sony has some issues squeezing a FF sensor with IBIS into an APS-C intended mount. 

The Z mount is perfect at 55mm! But SL mount is only 48.8, which yes is bigger than the 46mm E mount, but not by much! Is that enough?

True. The major issue appears to be mount related. The Z mount seems to be an extremely well thought out development.   

 

2 hours ago, ntblowz said:

Some guy saying inner diameter is 51mm and throat diameter is 48.8mm on L mount, guess we shall find out tomorrow!


https://photographylife.com/what-is-lens-mount

Thanks for sharing this link. Very interesting information by this guy.

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12 hours ago, IronFilm said:


That is my big question, is the SL mount properly big enough to hold FF sensors with space for IBIS?

We know Sony has some issues squeezing a FF sensor with IBIS into an APS-C intended mount. 

The Z mount is perfect at 55mm! But SL mount is only 48.8, which yes is bigger than the 46mm E mount, but not by much! Is that enough?

Beside the technical question, I don't know why Panasonic and Sigma they picked the L-mount on a strategic standpoint. The FF Leica lenses are outrageously expensive, limited in number (6 models), and not especially impressive (mostly variable zoom). Finally, the L mount user base is insignificant. So what is the commercial and marketing interest of joining what appears to be sub-standard mount?
The only reason I can find is the partnership between Leica and Panasonic. Basically Panasonic covers the electronic part while it benefits from the optical experience of Leica.

https://news.panasonic.com/global/topics/2014/29096.html
"The companies had signed a cooperative agreement for digital audiovisual equipment lenses in August 2000 and agreed to cooperate in the digital camera sector in July 2001. Since then, the companies have built up a cooperative relationship in optical technology and quality control, and brought high-performance and high-quality digital cameras to the market by fusing Leica's superior optical technology with Panasonic's digital technologies such as image processing. Panasonic will continue to incorporate Leica's century-worth of optical technologies and camera traditions into the DNA of Panasonic's digital cameras to further expand our business."

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19 minutes ago, OliKMIA said:

Beside the technical question, I don't know why Panasonic and Sigma they picked the L-mount on a strategic standpoint. The FF Leica lenses are outrageously expensive, limited in number (6 models), and not especially impressive (mostly variable zoom). Finally, the L mount user base is insignificant. So what is the commercial and marketing interest of joining what appears to be sub-standard mount?
 

For Panasonic? Because it exists and is a known entity for them so they can get it out quickly and I imagine their lets just say ''close" relationship with Leica in terms of developing the existing cameras that currently sit behind it means that it will be license free as well. Plus, its already been proven through 3rd parties to be AF adaptable with EF and newer Nikon E lenses so it isn't a dead end from that point of view which will be appealing to early adopters.

The potential immediate additional market for them for lenses is not just SL owners though but also owners of T/TL/TL2 and CL which shares the mount, all of whom would welcome some alternatives to a similarly limited (in terms of range not necessarily quality) and price restrictive lens line up for APS-C.

For Leica, it would also act as a gateway drug for those owners to step up to an SL and ditto for SL owners to pick up a TL2 or CL as a backup camera.

And also, of course, for the Leica clad versions of these new FF cameras that will follow a few months behind.

For Sigma, it also means their next generation of cameras can benefit from having a mount that is less restrictive than their current SA one.

Its a big win for all three of them in my view and, as I say, for early adopters of the Panasonic it takes away a lot of the concern about investing in 'yet another new mount'.

 

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32 minutes ago, OliKMIA said:

Beside the technical question, I don't know why Panasonic and Sigma they picked the L-mount on a strategic standpoint. The FF Leica lenses are outrageously expensive, limited in number (6 models), and not especially impressive (mostly variable zoom). Finally, the L mount user base is insignificant. So what is the commercial and marketing interest of joining what appears to be sub-standard mount?
The only reason I can find is the partnership between Leica and Panasonic. Basically Panasonic covers the electronic part while it benefits from the optical experience of Leica.

Also from a marketing perspective it is a brilliant move, as they get to join an "established" mount system and get some of the golden shine of the Leica fame to rub off on their budget version cameras. 

 

16 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Its a big win for all three of them in my view and, as I say, for early adopters of the Panasonic it takes away a lot of the concern about investing in 'yet another new mount'.

 

Exactly. 

Creating a "new" mount for the market will carry a lot of risks as to if consumers will accept it, so if it is even just a little established already that can help reduce fears in buyers that this new mount might not last (like NX....) because this is a mount which has already been around for a few years. 

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20 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

For Panasonic? Because it exists and is a known entity for them so they can get it out quickly and I imagine their lets just say ''close" relationship with Leica in terms of developing the existing cameras that currently sit behind it means that it will be license free as well. Plus, its already been proven through 3rd parties to be AF adaptable with EF and newer Nikon E lenses so it isn't a dead end from that point of view which will be appealing to early adopters.
>>> Make sense. Designing a new mount adapted for FF sensor would make more sense but they picked the easy route.

The potential immediate additional market for them for lenses is not just SL owners though but also owners of T/TL/TL2 and CL which shares the mount, all of whom would welcome some alternatives to a similarly limited (in terms of range not necessarily quality) and price restrictive lens line up for APS-C.
>>> But there is a lot of limitation of mounting T lenses on the FF SL/L mount.

For Leica, it would also act as a gateway drug for those owners to step up to an SL and ditto for SL owners to pick up a TL2 or CL as a backup camera.
>>> I see the benefit for Leica yes.

And also, of course, for the Leica clad versions of these new FF cameras that will follow a few months behind.
>>> Sigma is also rumored to released a L mount camera later on. Personally I have zero interested for super expensive Leica camera. Since they are mostly made by Panasonic, I think a future Leica FF would stay in elitist price range, away from the Pana FF.

For Sigma, it also means their next generation of cameras can benefit from having a mount that is less restrictive than their current SA one.
>>> It's neutral for Sigma, I agree that hey have to expand beyond the SA mount but going for L-mount  or another one doesn't make a difference. Since they are changing mount, it may be better to get a native one designed for FF camera.

Its a big win for all three of them in my view and, as I say, for early adopters of the Panasonic it takes away a lot of the concern about investing in 'yet another new mount'.
>>> Yes, seems to be a win-win for us too but the L mount is so confidential at this point that it doesn't change much. L mount or a new one is the same, we will have to invest in a new mount. However, with 3 manufacturers onboard from the beginning, I'm more inclined to jump on this boat.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:


IF they designed a new mount from scratch, what if anything would they do differently?

I'm not a mount specialist but it seems that the L mount is a bit small for an optimal FF integration. Kind of like the Sony E mount that was initially designated for APS-C camera.
Canon and Nikon made a lot of noise about their large mount and how it would be better than before (even though the EF and RF diameter are similar). Marketing aside. Sigma exec also mentioned in the past that designing high quality lenses for the Sony E mount was challenging due to the small diameter of the mount. But they did it eventually and the FE Art lenses seem as good as the EF and F counterpart.
Plus, the Leica 50mm f/0,95 has also been fitted on the FE mount. Same for the IBIS so personally I'm not very concerned on a technical standpoint. The L mount is larger than the Sony mount and it shouldn't be a major issue.
I'm more curious about the commercial and strategic decision to adopt the L mount.

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Comparing the diameter of the mount is mealiness by itself, as you don't know where the sensor sits in relation to it. You need to remember we aren't talking about a cylinder of light hitting the sensor, but a cone of light, so depending on the position of the sensor the, the diameter of the circle projected on it can have different diameters. Not to mention the aspect ratio of the sensor will play a big part in the equation as well.

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1 hour ago, OliKMIA said:


>>> But there is a lot of limitation of mounting T lenses on the FF SL/L mount.

The crop factor doesn't put off as many people as you'd imagine as the weight, size and cost benefit versus using the native SL lenses are quite considerable. Something like the 23mm Summicron is a great compact option for SL owners looking for an affordable compact 35mm equivalent.

With the 4K being an APS-C crop on the SL anyway it doesn't hurt them there either as they have the same FOV in stills and video.

Obviously the other way round is a rarity due to the physical size and price tag of the SL lenses but with affordable versions that would change to be as it is with other APS-C cameras where people use FF lenses with them with an eye to the upgrade path of using them with FF cameras down the line.

 

1 hour ago, OliKMIA said:

> It's neutral for Sigma, I agree that hey have to expand beyond the SA mount but going for L-mount  or another one doesn't make a difference. Since they are changing mount, it may be better to get a native one designed for FF camera.

Unless Sigma walk away from Foveon, which seems unlikely as they have a commitment to it which goes beyond financial, or they pull a rabbit out of the hat with it's low light performance, it's always going to be a specific use camera.

That is fine but the problem comes with getting people to make a commitment to a camera like that when it has a restrictive mount that means when you aren't using the camera you aren't using the lenses either.

By having a shared mount, not only will Sigma be able to have cost benefits from not having to produce short runs of lenses for their own camera but it should also stimulate sales of the cameras themselves if people can see additional use for the lenses.

When I'm not using my SD Quattro, the lenses for it sit idly in the drawer as well whereas if it was SL mount then they'd see more use and probably entice me to buy the next generation of it and more lenses. A case in point is that I would love to have the 50-100 ART for it but I cant bring myself to buy it in SA mount when if I bought it in EF mount it would see far more action on multiple different cameras. I can't even try one out if I wanted to as no dealer is keen to hold the SA mount version in stock and on demo which is something that will ultimately kill off the SD Quattro range if it carries on like that.

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From l-rumors.com:

"– The Entry level “Panasonic S” has 24MP
– The High End”Panasonic S” has 48MP
"

So Paanasonic does a Nikon with 2 variants. I am guessing, that Nikon, the 24MP Sensor version would be better at video too (better low light, less rolling shutter and though I believe they may not keep the AA filter unlike on the Nikon Z6). Plus the price difference between the 2 models be noticeable, I am guessing. 

I could be wrong, but I realised that there appears to be no video (or photo samples), from the Nikon Z6, whereas the Z7 seems to have been tested by quite a few people. Maybe they're making a monster camera with that one. 

 

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2 hours ago, sanveer said:

 

From l-rumors.com:

"– The Entry level “Panasonic S” has 24MP
– The High End”Panasonic S” has 48MP
"

So Paanasonic does a Nikon with 2 variants. I am guessing, that Nikon, the 24MP Sensor version would be better at video too (better low light, less rolling shutter and though I believe they may not keep the AA filter unlike on the Nikon Z6). Plus the price difference between the 2 models be noticeable, I am guessing. 

I could be wrong, but I realised that there appears to be no video (or photo samples), from the Nikon Z6, whereas the Z7 seems to have been tested by quite a few people. Maybe they're making a monster camera with that one. 

 

Personally, I like to have the two variants so we can choose what we want based on specs and price. I think that the 30mpx of the 5D4 and R are kind of jack of all trade master of none. They fit in between, not especially good in low light nor producing very high definition files.

I expect the new Panasonic S camera to push the envelop without all the Sony issues, the Nikon Z will be good while the Canon R won't bring anything special. Sure the Canon R will be a decent camera but I don't see any incentive to switch from my current canon DSLR.

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4 hours ago, sanveer said:

So Paanasonic does a Nikon with 2 variants. I am guessing, that Nikon, the 24MP Sensor version would be better at video too (better low light, less rolling shutter and though I believe they may not keep the AA filter unlike on the Nikon Z6). Plus the price difference between the 2 models be noticeable, I am guessing. 

I could be wrong, but I realised that there appears to be no video (or photo samples), from the Nikon Z6, whereas the Z7 seems to have been tested by quite a few people. Maybe they're making a monster camera with that one

And nikon did a sony...  (but sony, those clever sausages, stagger the release of A7r/ A7 to minimise the likelihood of canibalising their own sales).  The same reason i suspect that nikon is keeping shtum about the z6. They dont want people to wait for the cheaper camera, they want to canibalise sony's sales, not their own)  The downside there is Panasonic S.  I was planning on waiting for the z6, but if I have to wait another 3 months for a hybrid camera with beefier video specs (assuming it's stills specs are on a par with my current 5-year old DSLR), then I'll have some thinking to do :) )

 

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:
6 hours ago, OliKMIA said:

>>> Make sense. Designing a new mount adapted for FF sensor would make more sense but they picked the easy route.

 

Leica has cachet in the stills world. Panasonic has tiny mind-share. Say "panasonic" and people still most likely think radios and air conditioners.  This camera is taking on the big boys of stills. Therefore Having a leica mount makes the marketing folk very happy.  

Even if technically it's not the best move (which I dont think is true), in every other way it's a no-brainer. 

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A lot will hinge on the AF capabilities, rumors have Panasonic still pretending PDAF doesn't exist. A 48mp body can make waves on the stills side, but DFD is not the path to be competitive with CaNikon and Sony.

IBIS, 4k60p, FF, we're getting closer to the magical "one body for everything" - but DFD means the S will still have a nasty wart.

Chris

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