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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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30 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

yeah that too.  I wonder if the GH5s is significantly cheaper to make than the GH5 because it lacks IBIS and is based around an existing body and color science but since it's a PRO model they have to price it higher

Uses a new sensor however, maybe extra cost there. 

Plus they will certainly sell less of them than the GH5, so GH5S R&D costs can't be spread around as much over as many units shipped.

 

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30 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

yeah that too.  I wonder if the GH5s is significantly cheaper to make than the GH5 because it lacks IBIS and is based around an existing body and color science but since it's a PRO model they have to price it higher

I thought the GH5s had Panasonic's newest Color Science in it?

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1 hour ago, jonpais said:

I wonder what it cost to make the X-H1, the a7r III and the RX100 VI too! 🤣

Probably less than we imagine. I would think the R&D is more cost than the manufacturing in this day and age. Not much Human cost involved anymore making stuff. Assembling lenses maybe, but that might be about it other than stuff like satellites for space. Robots are building Robots already.

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Does panasonic sell higher volumes than Blackmagic?

The Rx100 series of cameras has tons of features packed into it, so I can see how development costs are high, but I do feel that the Panasonic cameras are just priced like everyone else, with higher pricing given to their better models.  Blackmagic just prices things however they want, so you really see how cheap it is to build cameras.  They priced this one at $1295, but if they could get it down to $1000, I'm almost certain they would.  It does sort of put into perspective what stuff really costs, because this camera is basically an entirely new body design with a new type of sensor as well, with tons of PRO features as well.  Blackmagic is the only company building cameras less than $2000 that license Prores inside of them.

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are you saying the RX100 has more tech than the GH5? Does it have anamorphic mode, 10-bit internal, full HDMI out, the ability to save all settings to an SD card, waveform monitor, truly usable touch screen, fully articulating LCD, 4K 60p unlimited recording, and on and on? If the batcam had all the features of Sony, Panasonic or Fuji, it would cost in the same ballpark. 

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5 hours ago, jonpais said:

I wonder what it really cost to design and manufacture the camera. 😂

Well here are a few numbers.....

What does it cost to manufacture a camera?

So here are Olympus's financials (admittedly for the whole company)

1531442548_ClipboardImage(177).thumb.jpg.4e8c2b85d15b2f6f70acf88a8fd36c2d.jpg

Note that their gross margin is 'massively' high at 65%. Historically they used to breakout the gross margin for their cameras which was around 50%. To put that in perspective Apple's (a company that gets away with charging a lot for stuff) chugs along at around 38%.

So manufacturing cameras - especially mirrorless which is just a bunch of chips on a motherboard - doesnt cost a lot (Nikon and Canon's gross margins are lower.) However, SG&A expenses are also incredibly high - these are largely fixed costs and so if you dont sell much they end up as high (Nikon and Canon's are a lot lower as a percentage.)

When it comes to R&D, Olympus reports for 'imaging'....

1717272055_ClipboardImage(178).thumb.jpg.fd36b2e67a4ab925b5499b32e2779cd2.jpg

4bn yen (US$40m) which is around 6% of revenues (and Japanese Cos overstate R&D for taxation purposes.) And even US$40m isnt a lot...

So if you take the Panasonic GH5s, I dont think there is a whole lot of cost or R&D. The sensor is made by Sony (and by most accounts) is an off the shelf security camera (Starvis) sensor. The shutter will be made by Nidec Copal, the EVF most probably by Epson etc... etc...

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6 hours ago, jonpais said:

I wonder what it really cost to design and manufacture the camera. 😂

Im guessing Blackmagic is not making a lot of profit on the pocket 4K cameras. I think they just want to take over the market and build their name up to the masses and in the meantime also converting users from Adobe to Resolve. 

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Rx100 doesn't have more tech, but it has a lot packed into a tiny body.  Look at the zoom range of that lens.  The internal ND filters, that pop up viewfinder.  Crazy stuff for a tiny camera.

There's a few things Blackmagic does not have that the Panny cameras do have, but largely I feel if Blackmagic had more experience building a smaller dslr/mirrorless form factor camera, then the Pocket would cost exactly the same AND have more features.  Blackmagic didn't add a waveform monitor because they said it's very computationally expensive, and probably not worth the tradeoff when they can add other features.  They probably also felt that anamorphic is seems pretty niche and if you really need it, they have other cams that can do it.

Rotating screen they do not have, but not sure how easy it is to build a 5" rotating screen.  They did take the easy route and use a display they know that people are happy with.

Autofocus is the main thing that Blackmagic doesn't have.  If they were able to add phase detect autofocus and used some of the newer Sony sensors, allowing higher ISO performance, they would steal more business from other manufacturers.  In many ways this cam at least fixes some of the gripes that people have about blackmagic's being either too big and heavy or poor ISO range.  The aggressive pricing of this camera and better ISO performance is a huge step in converting a lot of new people to Blackmagic.

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1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Well here are a few numbers.....

What does it cost to manufacture a camera?

So here are Olympus's financials (admittedly for the whole company)

...and that makes the numbers worthless (sorry). Olympus is primarily a medical imaging company (holding, among others, 70% of the world's endoscope market), and these products have a high margin. For sure, their consumer products don't make these profits.  

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It costs millions.

From what I've seen (first hand experience that is) at several companies it's a two year development cycle at minimum to make a camera. 

That's dozens of engineers.  Many iterations of sensor fab customising alone. Not to mention the in-house development costs. 

And there's no such thing as off the shelf sensors.  Just ask Apertus. They still haven't made a feasible camera after how many years ?

JB

 

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1 hour ago, cantsin said:

...and that makes the numbers worthless (sorry). Olympus is primarily a medical imaging company (holding, among others, 70% of the world's endoscope market), and these products have a high margin. For sure, their consumer products don't make these profits.  

....Or you could at least look it up....

1566952691_ClipboardImage(180).thumb.jpg.6bb12c9961606f803ff5333d911960f6.jpg

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12 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

That cage is priced exactly 1/3 the price of the camera, so I'm not suprised if they did it on purpose.  Makes me wonder what it really costs to design and manufacture something like that.

That cage looks like it's one piece and I don't see any welds. If it's machined from a single block of aluminum it is probably on the higher cost side of manufacturing. Aluminum prices are or are about to start going up as well because of tarifs. We'll see cheaper cages made with multiple parts (think of wooden camera's original half cage for the bmpcc) that will likely be cheaper. I've got a design started that is designed to be machined from aluminum plate. 

That said, it's a pretty cage. I wish BM had considered third party mounting when designing the new 4k, the design gymnastics required to make a functional cage is significant.

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10 hours ago, jonpais said:

are you saying the RX100 has more tech than the GH5? Does it have anamorphic mode, 10-bit internal, full HDMI out, the ability to save all settings to an SD card, waveform monitor, truly usable touch screen, fully articulating LCD, 4K 60p unlimited recording, and on and on? If the batcam had all the features of Sony, Panasonic or Fuji, it would cost in the same ballpark. 

Yeah when you figure you get about a $10,000.00 lens with it in FF equivalence than yeah it is a bargain compared to the GH5.

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

right, they're a charity! :) 

I think he is right. Look at Resolve. They Are giving it away literally. And the Studio one is Only 299 bucks, They are nearly giving that away also. They want you to buy a BM Camera and use BM Resolve, and then you are hooked, in a good way, into the BM Voodoo or whatever you call it.

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22 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah when you figure you get about a $10,000.00 lens with it in FF equivalence than yeah it is a bargain compared to the GH5.

I think he is right. Look at Resolve. They Are giving it away literally. And the Studio one is Only 299 bucks, They are nearly giving that away also. They want you to buy a BM Camera and use BM Resolve, and then you are hooked, in a good way, into the BM Voodoo or whatever you call it.

Nah, they’re making a profit.

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Man, did I just see a fiscal report? This thread has changed quite a bit.

Had a question. The SanDisk 1TB is currently only USD199. Whereas the Samsung 1TB is USD329. Although my primary requirement is more for storage, I'd still like to be able to use it with the BMPCC4K if needed. Any reason the SanDisk wouldn't work as well as the Samsung?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, SR said:

Man, did I just see a fiscal report? This thread has changed quite a bit.

Had a question. The SanDisk 1TB is currently only USD199. Whereas the Samsung 1TB is USD329. Although my primary requirement is more for storage, I'd still like to be able to use it with the BMPCC4K if needed. Any reason the SanDisk wouldn't work as well as the Samsung?

You will have to look at benchmarks.  The Samsung T5 SSD is one of the fastest portable USB C 3.1 drives out there.  It is definitely faster than several competitors.  I don't know how it compares to that Sandisk.

As far as I know recording raw to USB C is a novel feature.  I would wait until the camera is out and the feature is tested by multiple sources before making any plans.

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17 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

As far as I know recording raw to USB C is a novel feature.  I would wait until the camera is out and the feature is tested by multiple sources before making any plans.

Blackmagic has been showcasing the feature pretty heavily since the camera's announcement. I think it's safe to assume that the functionality will be exactly as intended.

BM covers the topic in two sequential sections on their website even.

 

Screen Shot 2018-07-19 at 11.33.32 AM.png

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17 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

You will have to look at benchmarks.  The Samsung T5 SSD is one of the fastest portable USB C 3.1 drives out there.  It is definitely faster than several competitors.  I don't know how it compares to that Sandisk.

As far as I know recording raw to USB C is a novel feature.  I would wait until the camera is out and the feature is tested by multiple sources before making any plans.

Would I be correct in assuming that the Samsung T5 SSD (as a benchmark) would be capable for recording at uncompressed raw from the BMPCC4K?

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