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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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36 minutes ago, arant.joseph said:

Wow, you can really manipulate that image and it doesn't break down at all.....

ProRes, recorded in 10-bit, definitely feels creamy. When it's back to H.264 8-bit, you realize how that crumbles.

I find (in this possibly not yet finished iteration) that the highlights clip hard. As for the shadows, they can be pushed hard. Indicates that there was room for better roll-off, if 12 stops DR were okay.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Actually since the sensor is the same as on the GH5s, I am wondering whether Black Magic should also have a 14-bit RAW when one needs to absolutey push the codec and push maybe 3+ stops either way. 

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2 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Actually since the sensor is the same as on the GH5s, I am wondering whether Black Magic should also have a 14-bit RAW when one needs to absolutey push the codec and push maybe 3+ stops either way. 

I don’t believe it actually is the same sensor.

All BMD files in RAW are 12bit LOG / 16 BIT LIN.

JB

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Just now, John Brawley said:

I don’t believe it actually is the same sensor.

JB

Oh ok. Hmmmm ... I hope, then, that it is as capable, if not more. I suspected that the sensor may have a few versions with slight differences in size and ISO sensivity (with dual sensitiity being common to the group). 

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2 hours ago, jonpais said:

Colors look way off and even at small magnification, there is ugly, splotchy graininess. What ISO was this supposed to be? Because these images look far 'creamier' to my old eyes.

Screen Shot 2018-05-12 at 12.41.54 PM.png

You are judging from an 1000 px jpeg. What ISO? We can't tell. The stolen clip was @ ISO 800. You should better ask: what WB? From the stolen clip we know: the backyard is not blue because of daylight at tungsten WB, it really is a blue wall! The colors are off? You mean: not to your taste.

Would a GH5 (or GH5S) have handled that better? Well, that remains to be seen. 

About creamyness: all your linked images have prominent sDoF, they are more or less CUs. A 5DM2 (the classic one) with it's barely 720p (the impression was better) can do this, and as pleasant skin. That's what people see immediately (though subconsciously). The said 5D also had that massive bokeh, because of full frame with big pixels. What I meant by creamy: not baked-in, soft dough.

Ben-Jerry-s-Cookie-Dough-Eiscreme-TK-500

When you say the colors are off, can you nail down what you are actually referring to? Judging from the limes, green is somewhat undersaturated. We can assume that the blue background is really that aggressively lit, but my interpretation would have been that this was supposed to look like a color temperature mix and that the lounge was supposed to feel warm and homey in contrast. With less saturation of the "cold outside" and with more warmth in the foreground.

At first glance, the whole image is not very appealing, I agree. Too neutral, too sober. What I see though is that her skin - no matter whether it has *the* right color or not - is composed of many shades and hues, like the many layers in a renaissance oil painting. I do know that this is no given thing with, say, a Sony mirrorless. Anyone who disagrees? Then prove me wrong! Link to your living skin Sony frames. I like to forgo the P4k, so give it to me!

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44 minutes ago, Axel said:

You are judging from an 1000 px jpeg. What ISO? We can't tell. The stolen clip was @ ISO 800. You should better ask: what WB? From the stolen clip we know: the backyard is not blue because of daylight at tungsten WB, it really is a blue wall! The colors are off? You mean: not to your taste.

Would a GH5 (or GH5S) have handled that better? Well, that remains to be seen. 

About creamyness: all your linked images have prominent sDoF, they are more or less CUs. A 5DM2 (the classic one) with it's barely 720p (the impression was better) can do this, and as pleasant skin. That's what people see immediately (though subconsciously). The said 5D also had that massive bokeh, because of full frame with big pixels. What I meant by creamy: not baked-in, soft dough.

Ben-Jerry-s-Cookie-Dough-Eiscreme-TK-500

When you say the colors are off, can you nail down what you are actually referring to? Judging from the limes, green is somewhat undersaturated. We can assume that the blue background is really that aggressively lit, but my interpretation would have been that this was supposed to look like a color temperature mix and that the lounge was supposed to feel warm and homey in contrast. With less saturation of the "cold outside" and with more warmth in the foreground.

At first glance, the whole image is not very appealing, I agree. Too neutral, too sober. What I see though is that her skin - no matter whether it has *the* right color or not - is composed of many shades and hues, like the many layers in a renaissance oil painting. I do know that this is no given thing with, say, a Sony mirrorless. Anyone who disagrees? Then prove me wrong! Link to your living skin Sony frames. I like to forgo the P4k, so give it to me!

tldr; the clip you referred to as ‘creamy’ is in fact falling apart at the seams. I could give a rat’s ass about Panasonic.

Looks more like Pointillism than Renaissance to me.

179566da84e5fc2c2b19d633e5adf09f.jpg

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She's very self-concious about her skin condition, no need to harshly point it out like that.

 

:grimace: You're definitely right, that looks concerning. But it seems like it could be a post thing from removing noise, adding grain and weird adjustments.

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There is definitely some strange colour splotchiness going on, but my question is what the signal path of the image has been to get it from the camera to my monitor.  I agree with @Cinegain that it could be from some wayward processing.

 

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

179566da84e5fc2c2b19d633e5adf09f.jpg

The ISO performance on that image is terrible!!!  And it's a daylight landscape too!  :glasses:

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That looks like a mixture of aggressive grain and compression artifacts from the jpeg. AKA Jpeg Schmegma. Plus, if I remember correctly this wasn’t shot in Film Log Mode but Extended Video Mode, so it probably shouldn’t even be counted as an example of the camera’s capabilities. 

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So someone ignored Blackmagic's request and clandestinely hastily recorded a clip using god knows what settings on a preproduction camera.  And now people are analyzing it and extrapolating.  And people wonder why camera companies are so tight lipped until the day they are almost ready to ship.  No good deed goes unpunished.

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5 hours ago, Jim Giberti said:

It is pretty absurd to be analyzing a surreptitiously shot screen grab from a preproduction demo at a trade show.

Making judgements about it?

Indeed, and also strange so many remain convinced without seeing any footage from the production camera. 

For myself I will wait until the real reviews are out. With official footage. 

This camera seems interesting... let’s see if it lives up to the hype. 

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18 hours ago, jonpais said:

Colors look way off and even at small magnification, there is ugly, splotchy graininess. What ISO was this supposed to be? Because these images look far 'creamier' to my old eyes.

Why are you judging the color on a graded image?

Arant even said "Wow, you can really manipulate that image and it doesn't break down at all..... "
 

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Yeah, just wanted to point out that the image looks much better in Lightroom.  Uploading it to the boards somehow cooled it down way to much and threw chroma noise into the skin.  Not sure what happened.  At any rate, I'm still impressed.....

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A couple things:  The SD card that was used to record the "leaked" clips was actually quite fast.  It was the Sandisk Extreme Pro that the shooter used in either his Pocket or Micro cam (not sure) so there was likely some other issue as to why the recording was dropping frames.  Or maybe dropped frames just compound and create tons of problems causing the 12 fps mess.  There was some obvious tint problems with the colors and settings were hastily changed.  The clip was actually shot by changing the different ISO settings, so it's all over the place in terms of exposure and dynamic range.  There's only 10 stops in the 1600-25600 range.  It looks like the shots where people tended to prefer the exposure balance were around 1600-3200, likely the reason the highlights clip so poorly.

Most people grading the shots are just not great at color grading and didn't correct for some of the tint issues, hence why the colors look "off."  Plus on top of that, the shots that have more highlight retention are slightly underexposed too.

 

On top of that, color shifts with ISO changes too, and especially when going from standard ISO, to low light ISO mode.  So the standard ISO mode is likely a more "finished" color than that of the higher ISO modes causing further problems.  If someone had just exposed for 400 or 800 ISO the shots would have likely turned out 10x better.

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1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

A couple things:  The SD card that was used to record the "leaked" clips was actually quite fast.  It was the Sandisk Extreme Pro that the shooter used in either his Pocket or Micro cam (not sure) so there was likely some other issue as to why the recording was dropping frames.  Or maybe dropped frames just compound and create tons of problems causing the 12 fps mess.

Apparently not fast enough. If a 30p 4k camera is shooting at 12fps, there is a serious issues with writing speed. Also bitrates make a Huge difference, and that is why Panasonic issues directives for the 4k @ 400mbps shooting speeds wrt what cards Would be compatible. This may have Even Higher Bitrates. The guy who put the card in night have well used a 30MBps UHS-i card and let people judge based in 10fps, the video quality. It seems a little unfair, if not absolutely ludicrous. 

 

1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

There's only 10 stops in the 1600-25600 range.  It looks like the shots where people tended to prefer the exposure balance were around 1600-3200, likely the reason the highlights clip so poorly.

Actually there is a chart somewhere highlighting the exact dynamic range at the various ISOs. I believe it is like 1/2 or 2/3 stop lower at ISO3200 than it is at the 400-1600 range (I could be wrong though). 

If someone remembers where the chart is, Please share it here. 

 

I saw a (trailer of a) documentary shot on a moving train across hundreds of kilometres somewhere. It was shot on an F35, which also has open fans like almost all large film cameras. It was used in some terribly dusty and hot places. Except for rain and ice, I think BMPCC4k should do just fine in most environments. It may be even suffer a little dust, considering the sensor isn't exactly open and the fan cools and areas around it and not the sensor itself. 

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If you look at the chart from the livestream, there's two ISO modes.  Native 400, and 3200.  Once you shoot 1600+ the Dynamic range drops to around 10 stops (vs 13) because it switches into the 3200 mode.

The guy who shot the test clip confirmed he was using the Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-1 V90 which is rated at 95 MB/s and can sustain around 80MB/s+ continuous.  4K UHD is about 88MB/s in 24fps mode, so there has to be some other reason for the dropped frames or maybe it's just that once a single frame is dropped, other issues start compounding and it gets worse and worse.

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