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Andrew Reid

An adventure into the Panasonic GX85/80 begins - and a look at the Leica Nocticron for Micro Four Thirds

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

John Matthews: "I've been told this before: don't reduce the saturation too much on a 8bit file... but why?" Mainly to avoid usually incorect collor procesing. I'm adding an example to illustrate this. In the middle there is a +50 saturation added in 16 bit raw image during inport to ps. right is 8bit jpeg with 50 added sat in post. left is an extracted color layer overlayed over an image (which basicly mimics adding a isolated color data). Raw is obviously correct, right the most artificial. It might be even that setting higher sat in 8bit would be beneficial in post (lowering sat doesn't introduce artifacts), but it's a guess.

saturation.jpg

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19 hours ago, tomastancredi said:

Indeed, amazing colors! beautiful...
how did you get that green? 

Thank you very much! I have two layers, one with 7 nodes, another one on top duplicated and in Hardlight layermode- with two of the nodes altered.

I think one of the main things is one of the nodes of the lower of the two layers as seen on the Davinci screenshot below. Also attached a framegrab of a duck with colors I was really exited about to find in that 50p 28Mbit codec, with additional twixtor like slomo added!

cheers and regards

lower layer.JPG

duck.JPG

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9 hours ago, John Matthews said:

My informal evaluation showed this: the GX80 has a tendency for a noisy blue channel and a red channel with almost a "halo" effect to it. I know this because I downloaded camera files from expensive cameras to compare.

So for the WB A3G3 (which was a recommendation from @Inazuma) I could see that the blue channel got increased just a tad, keeping it further away from the bottom 5% IRE values in FCPX; hence, it had less clipping. IMO, the closer you get to the bottom or top 5% IRE, the more chances of clipping. I also liked the greens I could get after grading.

This is interesting, Kamil. I think I've seen the "plastic" look you're talking about, but not so much on the GX80 (or Panasonic) files. I've been told this before: don't reduce the saturation too much on a 8bit file... but why? I thought it was more about banding. Can you explain more? Also, some say with 8bit: "get as close to the final image you want in-camera." So, what are people shooting S-log, V-log, C-log? They've all got 8-bit versions, supposedly "ready" for grading, all of which look really flat and unusable out of camera.

 

Hey John!

Thank you for your answer! So that means with A3G3 one gets closer to the yellows and greens and further way from the reds and blues? 5% IRE in FCPX would be

values 64 and 960 in Davinci?

I think colorwise the GX80 should be really nice when graded well and of course shot well with A3G3:) Also, on G6 I shoot Natural with color 0 and anything else in -2.

It´s not a look I adore out of cam but grades nicely to my eyes. Filmig with not too much saturation to avoid color clipping. Not too low contrast and saturation either to avoid "plactic" and false colors, as far as I would understand.

By the way, do you know if the GX80 can record internally when having a HDMI out to a small monitor solution?

best regards, Marty

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1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

By the way, do you know if the GX80 can record internally when having a HDMI out to a small monitor solution?

Although I haven't done this myself, I believe @Andrew Reid mentioned it in his preliminary review of the GX80. This is what he said:

"But there’s more… the camera’s new processor can record 4K to the SD card internally at 100Mbit/s AS WELL AS outputting the full 4K 422 feed to an external recorder for high bitrate ProRes at the same time. "

So yes it does. :) 

It looks as though you're getting some really good colors with Davinci indeed... the greens are fantastic! Unfortunately, I don't have enough experience (or time) with it to say what a GX80 signal would produce... my impression is that you're 16 and 960 refer to a luma range... I thought it would appear at 0-255 on the GX80, but I'm not sure.

6 hours ago, Inazuma said:

Personally I think that if you have a tendency to increase saturation in post then you should avoid setting it to -5 in camera because when you increase it in post it introduces more artefacts. 

I've seen this myself, but why would 8-bit Log files exist? All them have saturation and contrast increases after applying a LUT... videographers use them all the time for serious projects. Is it "o.k." with 8-bit Log, but not with non-log? I still find there's quite a bit of color in a sat = -5 GX80 file, sometimes I'd say it looks closer to what I saw.

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I think Sony, in their guide to Picture Profiles (including S log), explains it very well why getting it right *in the camera* is the best way to get high quality video that looks like what you want. This is especially true for 8-bit 4:2:0 video:

"Picture Profile adjusts colors and the vividness of the image during recording. You can make
similar adjustments by using nonlinear editing software after shooting. But there are the
following differences.
To fit massive amounts of image data in a limited memory capacity, this camera compresses
image data when recording. No matter how advanced a compression format is, any data
compression inevitably deteriorates image quality somewhat. Applying sharpness, gamma
curve correction and other video effects to recorded images by using nonlinear editing
software worsens the image condition further by processing already deteriorated images.
For example, if video compression leaves the image with poor contrast or block noise in
some areas, applying video effects often make the problems more noticeable.
Because Picture Profile processes video signals before compressing, it changes the gamma
curve and corrects colors before image quality is damaged by compression. This makes it
possible to carry out highly precise image adjustments while keeping the quality of the
subject intact.
It should also be noted that recording images with proper contrast is crucial. If
image contrast in dark and bright areas is not recorded properly, this will result in
underexposed dark and overexposed white areas with no gradations. This means you
cannot change image contrast properly later on with nonlinear editing software no matter
how hard you try because there will be no gradations to work with.
If you intend to process your video with nonlinear editing software later, it is important that
you record your image in the right way.
Nonlinear editing software is a very powerful tool, but can’t fix everything. If you adjust
various settings to make sure your video is recorded in a way that matches your ideal as
much as possible, you will be able to create a video that will be closer to what you have in
mind with minimal processing via nonlinear editing software. It will also keep rendering time
short and make video editing work more efficient."

The italics are mine.

Color Profiles.pdf

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2 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Agreed.  -5 is the max desaturation, but there's still a good chunk of color info there.

Yes. I don't think there are any sort of standards. Sony's 0 saturation doesn't equal Panasonic's 0 saturation. In fact, it would be interesting to have some sort of standard or simple chart. Does that exist?

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1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Yes. I don't think there are any sort of standards. Sony's 0 saturation doesn't equal Panasonic's 0 saturation. In fact, it would be interesting to have some sort of standard or simple chart. Does that exist?

Yup.  Those charts are how part of how Inazuma comes up with his LUT's, for example.

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Based on your guys highly valuable comments, here is another series. This time i compared STD -5/-5/-5/-5 with STD -5/-5/-5/0 to see how the image looks like with a "neutral" saturation.

Lets start with the OOC shots (4K 25p):

STD -5/-5/-5/-5

gx80_std_5555_ooc.jpg

STD -5/-5/-5/0

gx80_std_5550_ooc.jpg

And here is my grade:

STD -5/-5/-5/-5

gx80_std_5555_fc.jpg

STD -5/-5/-5/0

gx80_std_5550_fc_sat75.jpg

My conclusions: I had to lower the saturation by 25% for STD -5/-5/-5/0 to avoid turning my skin orange. After that, both shots look pretty similar. The -5/-5/-5/-5 is a tad darker and the -5/-5/-5/0 offers more detail in the shadows, yet has a bit more noise (although not unpleasing). If wanted i can supply the video files as well.

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I made a grade for the 5550 version In DaVinci and next applied the same grade to the 5555 version.
All I did to make up for the difference was adding an extra node to the left of the grade with saturation set to 75.

jas_5550_grade.jpgjas_5555_grade.jpg

Everything looks slightly more blue to me, as in hardly noticeable.


The 5550 version without saturation adjustment.

jas_5555_grade_noSatAdjustment.jpg

The 5550 version with saturation adjustment (from 50 to 35)

 

jas_5555_grade_SatAdjustment.jpg

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Sorry if this has been discussed but couldn't find any info on the subject. I have a issue when I record in AVCHD FHD 24P or 30p the file info shows it as 720x480 on SD card but in Resolve the Metadata shows as 1920x1080p. I was wondering had anyone else experienced this,I'm a bit confused. I want to make sure I'm actually recording 1080p and furthermore my camera is operating correctly.

UPDATE: After further investigation it seems the files actually show as 1080p in Sony Vegas as well as Premiere Pro.I guess it's something with Windows 7 and how it sees the files far as info details,a bit strange but as long as the DAW is reporting correct I can live with it.

1.jpg

2.jpg

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On July 15, 2016 at 6:50 PM, Ricardo Constantino said:

Sorry can't get rid of this quote. 

59 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

@mercer was that footage I uploaded helpful for you?

I don't remember seeing it? Or I forgot... Can you refresh my memory... My brain hurts after recent forum events. 

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