Super8
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Posts posted by Super8
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29 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:
It's RAW. You don't lose any information pulling color casts out of shadows. That's the entire point of the format.
Alexa skews green out of the box. Canon has issues with blue-ish grass, inaccurate reds, and blue fringing around bright highlights (depending which matrix you use). RED has had heavily documented color issues since they've been around, including massive IR problems with all their pre-Dragon sensors.
"Perfect color out of the box" is a myth perpetuated by pretentious gearheads; every camera (and many a lens) has quirks that must be managed. Try using the heaviest internal ND settings on a C200 and not seeing IR pollution!
I understand that you were unable to screw an IR filter on some BM cameras in the past, which bit you in post. That's unfortunate; however, the issue is easily managed with skilled workers who do their homework.
That's not the point is it?
QuoteBuilt in Precision ND Filters
URSA Mini Pro features high quality ND filters that let you quickly reduce the amount of light entering the camera. Designed to match the colorimetry and color science of the camera, the 2, 4 and 6 stop filters provide you with additional latitude even under harsh lighting. The IR filters have been designed to filter both optical wavelengths and IR wavelengths evenly to eliminate IR contamination of the images from which many ND filters can suffer. URSA Mini Pro ND filters are true optical filters with a precision mechanism that quickly moves them into place when the ND filter dial is turned. Filter settings can even be displayed as either an ND number, stop reduction or fraction on the LCD!
The above info is from BM website landing page about the ND filters and what they claim to do.
The issue is not can you correct it or not. But if you go down that route and ignore that BM says their ND filters eliminate IR contamination and don't, you are left with adjusting for IR contamination which can cause other problems depending how severe.
QuoteThat's unfortunate; however, the issue is easily managed with skilled workers who do their homework.
I would say Black Magic is lacking in engineers and quality control. This includes whoever shot and approved that 12K footage that they display. Looks like they had the same issues that I had, right?
42 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:It's RAW. You don't lose any information pulling color casts out of shadows. That's the entire point of the format.
Alexa skews green out of the box. Canon has issues with blue-ish grass, inaccurate reds, and blue fringing around bright highlights (depending which matrix you use). RED has had heavily documented color issues since they've been around, including massive IR problems with all their pre-Dragon sensors.
"Perfect color out of the box" is a myth perpetuated by pretentious gearheads; every camera (and many a lens) has quirks that must be managed. Try using the heaviest internal ND settings on a C200 and not seeing IR pollution!
I understand that you were unable to screw an IR filter on some BM cameras in the past, which bit you in post. That's unfortunate; however, the issue is easily managed with skilled workers who do their homework.
Except BM claims to have a 100% solutions for IR contamination.
This is clearly my issue with false advertising and lack of trust.
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On 7/19/2020 at 9:59 AM, John Matthews said:
Exactly. Don't judge a book by its cover, right? He has a much bigger channel called "The healthy life". He's got several books on health and I can assure you he knows what he's talking about, probably much more than most doctors. I believe he made his first fortune in Hollywood, where he directed and shot a film... He's really not a person you can put into a box and just say who he is. At least, that's what I learned about him.
I would use him as a DP in a major film then some of the ones being championed on the EOS.
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4 hours ago, PannySVHS said:
@Laurier Thx for commenting and for contributing an interesting perspecitve on colour palettes of cams. Still, IR pollution was very hard if impossible to tame from my experience with BMCC 2.5K footage. I would recommand always doing some IR and other testing beforehand filming, especially paid work. The latter has given me some headaches fighting IR pollutin in post due ingnoring the issue.
This isn't a case about working with IR pollution. The BM12K is said to have built in ND's that are perfectly balanced to eliminate IR contamination. Are you saying Black Magic ignored the IR issue or @John Brawley ignored the IR issue?
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8 hours ago, hijodeibn said:
please show us this affirmation, download the footage, do the correct color grade and upload here again, so Super8 will be able to see the magenta issue is easily removable.
I know magenta cast or IR contamination can be removed.
IR contamination shouldn't be in that 12K footage. I'm sure @John Brawley should have seen it. He wrote up that blog about it. I'm sure BM has a few great colorist that should have caught it. Heck, the built in ND's are supposed to eliminate IR contamination.
This is the reason ARRI, Canon and RED have clean color. No company is perfect but these 3 companies seem to understand color science and working with the right sensor foundation.
Black Magic seems to get the most out of sensors for lowest cost compared to any other camera company. Instead of cutting corners they should just make sensors and cameras that get the best results at any cost.
I'm begging to wonder if they have the engineers to pull of great color science.
Take a look at the picture from BM website, someone thought that IR contamination was acceptable to showcase.
- hijodeibn and zerocool22
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20 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:
I understand your frustration Super8, but really, who in this forum can afford this camera?, I don't, and that's the answer from 99 % of the people here, this camera is not oriented to us, it is oriented for productions companies with at least a small crew to operate it. And I didn't notice the magenta issue until you said it, good catch!!!, people is acting like fans, they see 12K and now we have the perfect camera, everything is fantastic and we can forget about all the other issues. They are not going to buy this new BM camera, only play with the footage released, but they are ready to cut your throat if you say that this camera is a waste of time, which in my opinion is for most of us. The only positive here is that in the next years BM could release a new pocket with this new sensor, which for that time will be fixed for the magenta cast, hopefully!.
I might end up getting the P6K before it's all said and done. I don't know.
The technical issues of Gen3,4,5 color worries me. Maybe @John Brawley can tell me how bad P6K color is in certain areas and how to avoid color issues.
With BM I'm not looking for Sony color or Nikon color or even Canon color. I want cine color because that's what's advertised.
If not BM my next camera will be above $10K if the lower priced cine cameras are filled with issues and if they all play games with the cripple hammer. I have a feeling you can't get a good cine sensor under $10K.
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5 hours ago, sanveer said:
All cameras have some colour cast and not all colours can be perfectly represented by any of them. Unlike on 8-bit DSLR footage, on higher bit-depth cameras you can easily correct this with a colour checker, with almost no effect on the final footage (coming apart).
Anyone who probably is unhappy with this footage hasn't seen Alexa footage. It is quite green. Anything wider then the rec709 standard (all log) spills into wider colours, maybe for the purpose of maintaining the wider dynamic range, that effect colours before it is corrected and turned into a narrower colour bandwidth. Some log profiles have sepia some have green casts. The Blackmagic lut didn't cater specifically for the generation 5. That doesn't mean it's bad. I am not sure any lut by itself, will be able to colour correct log 100% without tweaking the colours wheels or white balancing a little further.
You put a lot in your comments to unpack based on an official BM paid video release.
@John Brawley is the most seasoned and decorated DP that BM has in it's stable.
QuoteAnyone who probably is unhappy with this footage hasn't seen Alexa footage. It is quite green.
Never said I was unhappy. Magenta cast is something BM has an issue with. BM even addresses this with built in ND filters that they say solves this issue.
Alexa footage is also not quite green.
QuoteUnlike on 8-bit DSLR footage, on higher bit-depth cameras you can easily correct this with a colour checker, with almost no effect on the final footage (coming apart).
This is an official release video and you can download this footage from BM website. Why didn't they remove the magenta cast?
It also depends on where the magenta cast is and how bad it is.
What should worry people is this was the built in ND's that were suppose to correct this issue and magenta cast gets worse in direct sunlight. All this footage was controlled lighting and not in direct sunlight.
QuoteThe Blackmagic lut didn't cater specifically for the generation 5. That doesn't mean it's bad. I am not sure any lut by itself, will be able to colour correct log 100% without tweaking the colours wheels or white balancing a little further.
Really? BM makes Davinci Resolve so how messed up is it that they're over colorist wouldn't see the magenta cast and correct it?
What's with all the defending of Black Magic and their cameras? Canon got ripped a new one for it's overheating issues. Black Magic deserves the same inspection and feedback. This is why Black Magic quality control sucks and this is why they release cameras with known issues. "The P6K is only $2,000 what do you expect?" "It's 12K for $10,000, what do you expect?"
I expect a great camera that lives up to what @John Brawley is pitching. If you're going to finally talk about color, finally talk about what the new 12K sensor can do and that they spent million and millions of dollars developing and at the same time say the 12k camera is ready for the biggest Hollywood productions then back it up with footage that proves it.
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1 hour ago, kye said:
NEWS FLASH!! Someone is talking about camera overheating while not standing in rain / snow.
I'm sick to death of the people who talk about camera overheating coming from countries where their summer is the same average temperature as the winter where I live. And I live in the cooler part of Australia.
The reality of the world is that colder countries are more affluent, so that's where the technology is made, purchased, and generally used:
I don't understand your comment. In the US southeast it's 94 degrees today. In the US western states such as Las Vegas NV it was 108 degrees today.
Most of the US has the dog days of summer so any camera if fair game to overheat and have to own that overheating.
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16 hours ago, ade towell said:
Your ignorance is overwhelming. And I thought you were a real DP the way you big yourself up in that hot air way of yours
John Brawley uses BM cameras with Alexa all the time on real sets on big productions. Check out this recent thread for example on dvxuser, the guy is a fountain of knowledge
I did say this:
QuoteSuper8 said:
Sorry about this post guys. I was a little harsh and came off as an asshole.
I don't like the magenta cast on @John Brawley 12K footage.
His technical break down about the sensor was awesome and @John Brawley does some incredible work.
John does great wonderful work. I have no problem with saying that. His blog post about the BM12k was great and I said that. Magenta cut on his footage is not great.
The "first thing a camera should do is make fantastic pictures".
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2 hours ago, John Matthews said:
I wasn't expecting the winner, but I also found it interesting that the camera that won cut the files up into 6-minute files; hence, not corrupting most of the footage when it overheats. Many people complain about files being cut up, but I think it does have its benefits.
I love that he keeps sweating. Lol
I'm surprised the G7 overheated. I would love to see this test with the current 4K FF mirror less cameras other than the A7III. Sony A7III lasted 5 minutes at 4K. That's about what my A6500 would last after the first shut down.
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13 hours ago, techie said:
Sad trolling.
This is from BM BMUM12K page.
"The IR filters have been designed to filter both optical wavelengths and IR wavelengths evenly to eliminate IR contamination of the images from which many ND filters can suffer."
Everyone is talking about the BMUM12K getting BM into big production theatricals and taking productions from RED. I'm pulling for them but you can't have magenta cast issues when you have specific built in ND's that are suppose to eliminate IR contamination. BM is basically saying "look we addressed this" and then it shows up in promoted test footage. Yes skin tones look the best every from a BM camera. From a BM camera is key. Color balance affects everything.
This video does not have magenta cast in the black grey areas. It starts with GH5 footage and then shows shots from the P4K - Gen4 and Gen5 color.
Great information about Gen4 / Gen5 and another color issues is discussed.
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1 minute ago, newfoundmass said:
Holy shit, are we really complaining about how it looks now? It's not going to win any awards, but it looks fine. All the buttons are easily accessible and it's easily rigged up.
Are we really gonna pretend that RED cameras are good looking? They're boxes with a mid 2000s gun anesthetic.
No one complained but you because you thought we were. The points made were all about improving BM place in the market for high end productions. Sorry but looks matter.
Image also matters. It's is odd that BM always touted specs and not image. Now they are touting both. I dig it. It makes people ask what's under the hood.
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10 minutes ago, Coiii said:
... And that's why I said that Blackmagic needs to work more years to get the approval.
For me Blackmagic already has the technology. They have the sensors, the software, and the ecosystem. Now they need to work on reliability. Add $5000usd and transform the plastic body of the Ursa 12K into a magnesium/metal body and work harder to solve the sensor issues, color cast, etc. They also need better customer service.
Don't get me wrong. I really like Blackmagic and I want them to succeed because they have pushed the market like no one else since RED and the RED One. I own a Pocket 4K and loved the image for $1.200, but I'm selling it just because the battery issues. At least for me, Blackmagic needs a few more years and they will become a huge competitor to RED, Canon and Sony in the +$10000 market.
I agree about the body of the BM12K. They need to stop messing around with the weird design looks and innovate the body so it appeals to RED users or anyone else. If you spend 10K on a camera body in 2020 it should at least look as good what RED produces.
- hijodeibn and austinchimp
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19 minutes ago, JordanWright said:
I'm really not seeing the magenta cast
At 01:24s his hair does not have a magenta color to it. In the video it has a light cast. The same with the first scene, girl with the black top and at 01:42s, her hair is a dark brown. The next scene at 01:44 you don't see magenta cast in her hair. It's there when you know black should not have a magenta tone at all.
- hijodeibn, zerocool22 and andrgl
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13 minutes ago, Super8 said:
Why is @John Brawley being pushed on us so much across the EOS and the net today? I thought real DP's don't hang out on the EOS?
The proof will be in the footage not how technical someone talks about the NEW sensor.
Let @John Brawley compare the BM12K to Alexa, RED and Venice and see if it falls apart. How much you wanna bet he never does that test?
I really don't need a BM cheerleader to push their cameras.
Sorry about this post guys. I was a little harsh and came off as an asshole.
I don't like the magenta cast on @John Brawley 12K footage.
His technical break down about the sensor was awesome and @John Brawley does some incredible work.
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On 7/16/2020 at 2:30 PM, Sid said:
Apologies if the test footage was already posted:-
Again, magenta cast in the black shirt, black hair areas. Look at 00:59sec. What is that secondary shadow in under her nose? At 01:06s I don't see any magenta cast. At 01:27s the shot is horrible. Good skin tone but at the cost of color balance.
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15 hours ago, gingercat said:
So NO ONE is going to mention the magenta cast that's all over this footage? This is not acceptable.
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3 hours ago, Alt Shoo said:
Y’all should read johnbrawley.wordpress.com
it answers a lot of the assumptions in this thread.
Why is @John Brawley being pushed on us so much across the EOS and the net today? I thought real DP's don't hang out on the EOS?
The proof will be in the footage not how technical someone talks about the NEW sensor.
Let @John Brawley compare the BM12K to Alexa, RED and Venice and see if it falls apart. How much you wanna bet he never does that test?
I really don't need a BM cheerleader to push their cameras.
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1 hour ago, Neumann Films said:
The dirty secret is that RED color has been terrible since Epic Dragon. The Helium sensor is just bad. Prior to Dragon, RED received very similar complaints to what BM is getting right now. It only takes one solid camera and a few years to change the narrative.
RED color and footage holds up. RED blows away BM across the board.
Black Magic footage is always graded away from natural color. Always. The same with the GH5. Give me one color grade that has a natural look and let's see how these cameras hold up.
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25 minutes ago, majoraxis said:
I'm waiting for a side by side test like Tom Antos does.. I think we can safely say that this is best skin tones we have seen out of a Blackmagic camera. As far as compared to other cameras, that remains to be seen via a comparison video.
And I've complained about BM skin tones for a long time. You also have BM defenders that say BM skin tones are great.
It's all about what you don't know.
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The 12K footage looks good but not better than Arri, RED or Canon. It still looks like BM color science.
BM has a brand problem. No big studio has to move away from RED or Arri. The incentive to do so is not their unless the image quality is better.
BM has also shown the flaws of it's lower line up.
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18 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:
I'm in the camp that thinks that PDAF and IBIS are very useful - still thinking in get a E-M1 MKII or M5 MK III just because of these two points.
Just did not call an Alexa not useful because don''t have both. Could not be useful for me, but don't make the camera unusable.IBIS and PDAF is not an option for Alexa users or other high end rigs.
The blow back was IBIS is not needed and PDAF is not used by professionals.
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38 minutes ago, Super8 said:Quote
2 hours ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:
It was shot from our own @John Brawley, if people come back to treat him well here he could give some useful insights.
Maybe even for the troll of the other thread which says that a camera without IBIS or PDAF is not useful...Above is a link of @John Brawley talking about how useful IBIS or PDAF are on the E-M1 III, and how HE LOVED working with it.
He said he "got shots with the E-M1 III that he couldn't get with a different style of camera" (cine rig)
Blackmagic casually announces 12K URSA Mini Pro Camera
In: Cameras
Posted
The 12K image did have alot appeal so we'll see.