Super8

5 hours ago, kye said:

@Super8 Is there anything you can show us where specifically the GH5 have plastic skin tones or where you can't get the same look?

I keep asking because there are people who I have spoken to at length and whom I respect that believe that there is a difference, but I can never get enough information about what they're looking at in order to be able to see it myself.  It's easy to point to a video shot in glorious light with a cast and crew that are on their game and say that a different setup can't do that, because the only evidence against that statement would be a video exactly the same but shot on a different camera, and at sunset and with the light and breeze just-so it's not possible to replicate.  My questions is about what specifically can't be matched.  I am literally interested in someone pointing at part of a still frame of a video and saying 'see this thing here..  FF doesn't do that' or 'see that there..  MFT doesn't do that', or 'see how this thing moves here...  and now see on the other one how it's different...  if you can't see it then watch for the way that X does Y'

One resource that I found very interesting was this: https://www.yedlin.net/NerdyFilmTechStuff/MatchLensBlur.html  The basic idea that you can match blur on different crop factors isn't the headline here, it's that Steve Yedlin is saying it (he'd know!) and is probably the most thorough analysis I've yet found.  

He doesn't talk about availability of lenses, but he definitely discredits the people that straight-out suggest that you can't get shallow DoF on a smaller sensor.  He also doesn't talk about if there's a 'look' inherent in various sensor sizes, but he rules a whole bunch of variables out.

I'll be the first person to admit that wider lenses with wider apertures that are sharp wide-open aren't available for MFT, and maybe that's the 'look' that you're referring to, but that would only apply to shots where there needs to be a larger aperture - MFT can easily match a FF 50mm at F4 for example, so in that particular shot it can't be the lack of lenses contributing to it.

I'mm also be the first to admit I haven't got any glorious images to post that will "prove" the GH5 does hold up, but even if you gave me an Alexa I think I still couldn't do that - the weak link in both setups would be my skills in post!

I'm also half-suspecting that it's actually not the camera at all, but everything else.  What I mean is that film-making is a very deep and very difficult thing to do and get spectacular results, and by the time that you're good enough to do all the other stuff right you are spending so much money anyway that of course you just rent an Alexa for the shoot.  So in a way I question if it's not that it's not possible to do on smaller sensor cameras, maybe just that it isn't done on smaller cameras.

You're saying you can see the look, I want to also be able to see it.

I'll try and find some samples to answer your questions above.

Here's a comparison with his first example.

You get the same view and perspective.  the right side starts to not match up, not the guy but the bookshelf and table, basket.

On 6/27/2020 at 7:12 PM, Yurolov said:

Kai isn't a real reviewer. It's all fluff. This guy actually is the best for what he is, which is discussing vlog equipment. He never purports to be anything more. But the crossover comes if you are interested in a cameras ability to autofocus and stabilise. He has the best reviews in that regard with the most comparisons. Things like autofocus and ibis need a long format review, multiple reviews in fact, to discuss and show the cameras abilities. No one else takes the time to do that or show that. 

I like Kai W.  

I don't remember him going off into fanboy land.  As far as Undone, I'm not sure about him.   He gets technical but tries to legalistic his review to one side or another. 

The problem with his Z Cam review is people will run with his review and give doubter a road map to follow.  He creates a check list of pro's and cons for the Z Cam but each pro and con doesn't hold the same weight.

Does he seem to lean more for Sony or against? 

46 minutes ago, noone said:

Oh I read it, I just think you are full of shit!

I am out of this.

How?

I gave you RED's business model and Black Magic's.  Two ends of the camera world that make good product.   Not sure why comparison is bullshit.  

It shows companies approach business two different ways.  IMO it shows you have room for high and low pricing with everything in between.  If the industry tanks like you say it will this shows we will still have camera choices in the same price matrix.

Some history:

https://www.kenrockwell.com/nikon/dslr.htm

This shows the model and price of Nikon DSLR's from 1999 to the present.

Here's one example about camera prices staying the same year after year but feature getting better.  

21 February, 2002: The D100 is announced. It's 6 MP and 3 FPS for $1,999. This is Nikon's first lightweight amateur DSLR camera. It was an N80 with digital guts. It wasn't available for sale until June, 2002. It was a sellout with long waiting lists for a year after its introduction.

In May 2003 the D100 dropped to $1,699. In December 2003 it dropped to $1,499 where it stayed for a year or two. In May 2005 it dropped to $999.

Notice the $1,999, $1,699, $1,499 prices from 2002.  This doesn't include the higher priced camera either.   Same price points as today.  This means back in 2002's money we were paying more for cameras than today.

(This is true for game systems, and other electronic over the years).

Camera prices didn't go up after the financial crash in 2008-09 and they won't increase if we lose a few more camera companies.

39 minutes ago, noone said:

Of course it is how it works.

Even going to a site like AliBaba in China to buy small numbers of stuff the companies quote different prices for different order sizes.

You really do not think Sony is going to sell sensors cheaper to companies who buy larger orders?     That Oly would have got a better rate when they sold (made) many more cameras a few years ago?

Look at cars?   You never heard of fleet discounts?

I give up.

Of course the buying one or buying 200 gets you a different price for bulk orders.  In no way does this prove your doom and gloom argument. 

So you know how many and what price Olympus paid for it's Sony sensors?  or that if Olympus sold/made more cameras they would have bought more sensors? That makes no sense what so ever about why Olympus went under.

_____________________________________________________________________

Here the rest of my last comment that you didn't read.

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Case in point let's use a camera company. Let's use RED.  RED set the market based on the cost of traditional camera model and has stuck with it. They decided to charge a certain price and let the market adjust around their price.  They didn't panic and start slashing prices. 

Black Magic on the other hand has a different business model.  Sell for less but sell more product. 

Does it cost 300x more to make a RED camera?  No it doesn't.   RED can sell one camera package to Black Magic having to sell 6 to 9 to make the same profit. 

Camera companies that produce lenses also have a different model than the ones that only sell camera bodies.  The smarter companies will offer 3 cameras at different price points with a wide range of lens selections.  They will offer a echo system that people can invest in. 

I would be worried if I was Black Magic.  To survive the has to move a lot of product.  They can't all of a sudden come out with a $15,000 camera.  The lower priced cine cameras are taking profit away from Black Magic so much that they lowered the price of the BMP6K to $1,995. 

Companies have to live or die by the price model from the past.   Canon or any other company cannot raise prices because parts cost more or tariffs are higher.  The Sony PS5 might be great and could cost $950 US but no one would buy it. 

If Fuji goes under and also Panasonic that doesn't mean Canon or Sony's prices will go up.  We have to many camera makers as it is.

17 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

As for Photography, its not about that.  Its about the fact the GH5 is designed to be a different tool than a C300.  Its designed to do both stills and video.  Again, its not an argument.  Merely an observation.  Like saying a spoon is not a fork, even though you use them both to eat with.  

As for the P6K, you're right, its not a hybrid.  So what. 

You brought up that the C300 doesn't do photography but at the same time you've brought up the P4K and what it can do as a m4/3 camera.

It's easy to find contradiction in your comments but don't get worked up because I do.

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I think you're over analysing this whole thing.  You see issues that are not there.

I brought up issues as to why m4/3 probably won't be supported much longer.  This ties into Olympus and this is why it's in this thread. And for this reason I don't think m4/3 cameras like the Gh5 should be recommended.  That's the part where you tell someone the GH5 is worth investing in and they spend $2,500 to $4,000 to rig it up.

I didn't bring up major issues but they are issues with image quality when it comes down to it.

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I'm not sure I see why you're so worked up about it all.  Accusations of fanboy do you no credit.  At the end of the day, we work with what we can afford and what we like to use.  If the GH5 doesn't work for you, don't use it.  But for other users, it can be our bread and butter.  

Sure if you already own a GH5 sure. What are you going to do? pass it on and sale it to get a better camera?  Sure you could but the GH5 checks all the boxes and is cine quality, right?  This is my biggest issue with the GH5 and that's the none stop defending of specs without the image to back it up. 

The BMPCC was great when it came out, right?  How come it's not still supported?  Why didn't BM just keep increasing the specs and release II, III and up versions?

Hopefully this conversation shows you that a 2015 cine camera, C300 II, holds up better than a 2017 GH5.   Not that the GH5 was ever suppose to be the C300 II at all.  I give the GH5 the credit for pushing the market into a good spot. It has great feature that even cameras today don't have.  The Gh5 was just crippled by Panasonic. 

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I use 60p not to deliver, but for slowmo in my shots.  The fact that the C300 mark ii not having it, is not really an argument in defence of the GH5, more a casual observation.

60p at 4K of inferior image means what exactly?  This is why it's so hard to get to the bottom of what cameras have what and which ones delivery the best image with the best features at the best price that fits your budget. 

9 minutes ago, noone said:

Try this... think of a simple product, any product you can have made locally.

Ring them up and ask for a quote for ONE, then a quote for 500 and then a quote for 15000.

By your logic they will all be the same but I am betting it will be very different for each.

Now a modern AF camera is a lot more complex and is made up of many parts and a lot of those parts are made by other companies.

Olympus rings up Sony Semi Conductor and orders 200,000 20mp M43 sensors they are going to get a much better price per unit than if they just order 50,000 and the same thing will apply to all the other parts makers.     

As a result, a camera made with a run of 200,000 is going to be cheaper per camera to make than one made in a run of 50,000 even if the company makes the same profit per camera (though I would think they would want a larger profit per unit on smaller runs to justify making them).

They are not going to make a larger run than they think they can sell.

 

That's not how it works.  The reseller, whole sale world is much different than you seem to realize.  Everyone needs to make a profit and it's not selling directly to the local guy. 

Case in point let's use a camera company. Let's use RED.  RED set the market based on the cost of traditional camera model and has stuck with it. They decided to charge a certain price and let the market adjust around their price.  They didn't panic and start slashing prices. 

Black Magic on the other hand has a different business model.  Sell for less but sell more product. 

Does it cost 300x more to make a RED camera?  No it doesn't.   RED can sell one camera package to Black Magic having to sell 6 to 9 to make the same profit. 

Camera companies that produce lenses also have a different model than the ones that only sell camera bodies.  The smarter companies will offer 3 cameras at different price points with a wide range of lens selections.  They will offer a echo system that people can invest in. 

I would be worried if I was Black Magic.  To survive the has to move a lot of product.  They can't all of a sudden come out with a $15,000 camera.  The lower priced cine cameras are taking profit away from Black Magic so much that they lowered the price of the BMP6K to $1,995. 

Companies have to live or die by the price model from the past.   Canon or any other company cannot raise prices because parts cost more or tariffs are higher.  The Sony PS5 might be great and could cost $950 US but no one would buy it. 

If Fuji goes under and also Panasonic that doesn't mean Canon or Sony's prices will go up.  We have to many camera makers as it is.

1 hour ago, kye said:

Great conversation.  

@Super8 I don't really mind if MFT has a 'look', and I guess in retrospect I wouldn't have thought that having a look was a bad thing, after all the 'FF look' is an often used phrase and that is normally referred to as a desirable thing, not a liability.

I have a theory that once a camera is above a certain level of quality, you can match it colour to any other camera assuming you have enough skill in post.  I figure that I'm either right or wrong, and by pursuing it then I'll learn a lot either way, so some months ago I bought a BMMCC in order to be able to shoot it side-by-side with the GH5 in identical conditions and try and match them.  I chose the BMMCC as it has a reputation for excellent colour and there's no way I can afford an Alexa, so this was the best compromise.  People also like the motion cadence and other aspects of it, but I'm not there yet in my comparisons.
The project is ongoing (although got paused during covid times as due to my day job I had less spare time and energy rather than more) but did manage some colour matching I thought wasn't too bad.

I'm curious to get your impressions of the below.  The first one is GH5 in 150Mbps 4K 16:9 HLG mode, the second is the BMMCC in 1:1 RAW graded with WB and CST only.  I'm not that pink in real life but I'm probably not too far off it - office worker tan lol.

Also, are you seeing the plasticising of the skin in this GH5 shot?

Once again, genuine question.  I don't doubt that things like skin texture are negatively impacted by compression, the question is how keen is our judgement and how much are each of us willing to tolerate in their images.  Personally I'm not that picky, and for my purposes it's totally fine, but getting your impressions might help to calibrate the discussion.

Here's the GH5 shot graded via a WB and CST (although the GH5 HLG doesn't actually correlate to either rec.2100 or rec.2020 so it's not a perfect conversion, which is super annoying) so I don't think anyone would think this is a nice grade (or let's hope not!).

 

Not much to go by in those images.  IMO all 3 are under exposed. The blacks are crushed and the first tow are over saturated and the 3rd one under saturated.

You have to ask yourself which of the 3 are closer to capturing you and the lighting set up.  Not enough information in these 3 shots to really comment about them.

57 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The power of the GH5/S, the Pocket 4K, etc. is that you CAN use it for a feature and get great results.

When?  This is crazy fanboy talk. 

Of course any independent film can be called a feature film.  That doesn't help your argument.

The run and gun statement doesn't work for the P4K does it? Big an bulky when rigged out and no AF.

It's sad that advice is thrown around the EOS and people spend thousands on gear and get investors involved because someone said "The power of the GH5/S, the Pocket 4K, etc. is that you CAN use it for a feature and get great results."

Have some standards and support the DP's that suggest using cine cameras when they're called for.  I little homework and investment in time would get you much better results that are great.

52 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

The entire argument is silly. Countless low budget features, music videos, docs, short films, commercials, events, etc. have all been shot with a GH5 and other M43 cameras. The fact that major features aren't shot on M43 doesn't mean it's because the cameras aren't capable or that M43 isn't good enough, it merely means that films that have the budget are going to use the same cameras that always get used. They're not using Blackmagic or Z-Cam much either, despite their larger sensor offerings, which shows it goes beyond just sensor size. Heck, Canon has largely failed at getting their cinema line adopted by Hollywood, too. 

The power of the GH5/S, the Pocket 4K, etc. is that you CAN use it for a feature and get great results. You can use it for a run and gun documentary, or event too. That's the strength of the system. It's incredibly versatile. You're not limited by the camera, just your abilities. 

If you can't understand or see the benefit of all that, then there's really no point in arguing. Just write the system off and let the rest of us appreciate our tiny but powerful cameras in peace. 

Low end Blackmagic and Z-Cam haven't produced quality products break into the cinema field. 

Canon has a foot hold in the cinema world.  Out of ARRI, RED, SONY, and Canon which one of these continue to innovate in cinema?   All of these do. Notice how I only listed 4 companies.

14 minutes ago, anonim said:

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10244754/

Camera: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera
Lens: Voigtländer Nokton Series

Horvath: The principle idea of the film was that it was to be shot almost like a documentary. We were shooting over a period of nine months. During these nine months we had seven shooting phases of two-weeks each that involved a very small team of five people. The team was flown in while I was in North America for the whole time. I was driving from New York to Alaska, mostly accompanied by Patrycja Planik, the actress. We were not only scouting for new locations but also shooting a lot. So there is actually quite a bit in the film that just the two of us shot. The image quality of the BMPCC is absolutely comparable to a wide range of more high-end camera options, while its compact design allows for a great freedom of flexibility and spontaneity.

My choice about usable thread orientation - except to be informed that somebody has ingenious idea to use Arri for important shots or that nobody (here or everywhere) except rare connoisseurs never heard about parallax effect -  gravitates towards question about further usage of nice pats of Olympus technology. Being recently in position - regarding task of undertaken project - to choose and act similarly to Andreas Horvath director of "Lillian", I'm deeply interested for further advancement of (at the moment) still unique combination of qualities that for some situations and circumstances (traveling abroad, or shooting into wild area with minimal or secrete exposure conditions, etc.) almost exclusively provide just offer of m43 format camera products. Namely achievement of stabilization/quality both in camera and in 12-100mm lens, marvelous weatherproof solidity of camera. Say, it will be so nice if Dzofilm (or Laowa etc.) could integrate know how of Olympus lenses into next itеration of some great (and cheap because of m43) cine zoom attempts. Or - sorry for repeated idea - if Blackmagic, with its generally so brave choice/concept about not protecting any of bigger format produce, really offer some completely rounded m43 camera, or (to quote A. Reid) true "giant killer".

Nice work.

Although MFT has issues I don't want to deal with, if Black Magic dedicated themselves into MFT and provided cine feature in a smaller form factor with IBIS, AF and faster frame rates then I would be all in. 

Yes it's worth it to work around sensor size and crop factor based on the rewards given.  I just don't see the image quality with the GH5 to get behind it like other do.

You wouldn't believe how many time I've wanted to buy the BMPCC because of the look. 

6 minutes ago, noone said:

 

I am glad you have started contributing opinions not as facts.

The fact that the cinema world did not move down to the NFT sensor is telling isn't it. 

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Plenty of people use the GH5 for ITS look and NOT to compare it with the look of something else.

How does that work exactly? @kye and other (including you it seems) never knew the GH5 "had a look".    Lots of GH5 speed booster threads back my comments up.

2 minutes ago, Tim Sewell said:

"When the market shrinks to one tenth its current size, yes, more expensive because the cost per unit to make anything will be dearer and in order to make a profit it will just have to be.      While there is lower stuff to sell in volume they can make higher end stuff a bit cheaper than it otherwise would be but once that lower stuff is swallowed up by phones ...well look at Leica....otherwise it will be cheap rubbish."

Absolutely this. The reason Zacuto can charge hundreds of dollars for pieces of shaped metal with threaded holes in them is precisely because - in manufacturing terms - the market for those bits of metal is almost undetectably small.

Not how it works.

Profit margins might shrink but production cost don't go up because Olympus goes under.  Smartphones, cameras, even games systems keep SRP at a certain spot decade after decade.  The PS4 might not make much per system sold but they count on additional purchases.

If you want proof look at BMP4k and P6K.  How do they do it? How do they sale these for such a low price?  COG and ROI is what drives the market and product price.   The C300 II might have cost more to produce than the C300 III but that doesn't mean Canon will pass those saving to the customer.   The same-thing happens if cost of good goes up. 

Nikon, Panasonic and Canon tried to over charge for their ff mirror less cameras and it back fired. 

2 minutes ago, noone said:

M43 is DIFFERENT it is not the same and nor should it be.

 

Just like with film, different sizes existed, they existed for reasons.

A mini is an excellent vehicle but it is not a truck.   

 

Of course different film size exist.   What's the reason for MFT existence?  Do you think film makers ever choose MFT because of "it's sensor size look" ? 

The difference and look have been talked about for pages and pages in this thread and just now people are admitting it.  That's weird because that's why I mentioned anything to begin with.  I'm glad you final spoke up and contributed.

1 minute ago, SteveV4D said:

Again, its a S35 sensor vs a MFT one.  You're not gonna match the look without a speedbooster and even then it might not match perfectly. 

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 Oh yes, I see the C300 Mark ii has dropped in price, but it was no doubt 10k when first released.  Still it doesn't offer 60p 4K, which the GH5 offers. 

This is the contradiction about your post and defenders of the GH5.   You can't make the statement about about not matching MFT with Super35 sensor and then turn around and say "see the C300 Mark ii still it doesn't offer 60p 4K which the GH5 offers. " This is fan boy talk that doesn't address the issue. 

And based on 90% of EOS community how many people are delivering 4K 60p?

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AndI doubt you'd use the C300 for photos.  Different beast for different needs.  GH5 is a hybrid for hybrid shooters. C300 is for video pros.

so now the argument is about photography on the GH5?  Wha? That's a little bit of a reach.  Photography is not looked at well on the EOS.   I personally love photography and it drives my cameras buying decision but the BM6K is ALSO NOT A PHOTOGRAPHY CAMERA.

10 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Simple answer no.  Why, because its a GH5 and not a C300.  If people buy a GH5 and hope to shoot as a good an image as a C300, they will be disappointed.  I wouldn't expect to pick up a Pocket 6K and expect to shoot as good as an image as a C300.  If I want a C300 image, I'd buy a C300.  

You go cheap, you compromise.  That's not to belittle the GH5.  For its price point, size and features, its a great camera.  I prefer the image from my Pocket 4K, but on the other side, the GH5, with evf, IBIS, flip screen and superior battery life has advantages over the Pocket 4K.  

There's no perfect camera that fits all I needs.  If my work demanded it and I was a lot richer, I'd be shooting with something like a C300.  I choose GH5, Pocket 4Ks for cost and size.  Not because they are the best cameras ever.  And if you can work around the negatives and each of them has more than a few, you can get good results.  

But of course, they're no C300 for sure.  

The price isn't the issue.  Color isn't part of the same look I'm talking about ( I should have been clear about this) The issue would be could you match it shot for shot.  I don't think you can. 

Lots of great work in that video.  My opinion you would lose a lot of what's working in those shots if you used a GH5. 

By the way the C300 II can be bought for $7,499.00

49 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

GH5 was a $2000 hybrid camera vs a $10,000 cinema camera 4 or fives times it’s size....okay.

I'm not talking about price vs price. 

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 @kye  how many current model cameras can match the 4K60, or the 400Mbps All-I 4K 10-bit internal, or the 5K 10-bit open gate h.265.

These are the GH5 specs everyone talks about.  Why can't these specs come close to the C300 II ?

We have quotes about the GH5 winning awards, being used by big time film makers, etc.

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You can achieve roughly the same DoF but the background won’t be the same. This gets harder and harder as you go wider and wider for MFT

Bingo.  This is what I'm talking about.  No one wants to address this because they don't understand it or they think DoF is the only thing they have to adjust for.

6 hours ago, kye said:

I actually think that the GH5 and MFT vs FF debate throughout the thread is on topic, assuming that's what @Andrew Reid was referencing.  Olympus has sold its imaging business, it was one half of the MFT alliance and was responsible for basically half the MFT cameras made (excepting the odd model from BM, Zcam, etc), so one of the biggest impacts might be the death of the MFT system.

To that end I'm interested in if the GH5 really was so bad as @Super8 has made out, and if MFT does have a fundamental look to it (beyond people not knowing how to choose focal lengths).

If the GH5 really was that bad and has a fundamental look to it then it really won't be helped, but if there aren't fundamental issues then 1) what is going on, and 2) why are people mistaken?  These feed into the future of MFT and the implications of Olympus selling its imaging business.

I'm yet to actually get a straight answer on either of these issues - either on the GH5 or on a given sensor size having a 'look'.

Happy to take it offline if people aren't interested, but lots of people were liking / disliking the conversation so I figured I wasn't the only one interested.   Thoughts?

I think @Andrew Reid was talking about the pickering and calling people trolls that live in moms basement.

The areas of the GH5 needs to be addressed by anyone using that camera with or without speed boosters.  Every camera has color issues.  

Take a look at this video.  It's technology from 2015. 

- Can the GH5 shoot this and if so what lens adjustments need to be made? 

- On paper spec wise the GH5 holds up to the C300 II

- Can you get the same look? The same DOF subject to background parallax?

- Can you get the same motion cadence?

- Can you get the same color balance?

We can talk offline if this is moving this thread off the original topic.

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Maybe you need to hire non-incompetent DoPs?!

The GH5 crop / lens factor is all over the You Tube.  

I make sure my DP's use the right lens.

I want to like the P6K so much.  Should I give it another try?

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Growing up I use to visit the nearby city of Southampton.  It had some lovely shops, huge Virgin Megastore and HMV stores for my Video Cassette and later DVD purchases, Debehams store, where I could buy clothes from different brands, Toys R Us I loved as a kid, a huge Jessops store when I got into Photography, Woolworths for odds and ends, various book stores.  

Now, those shops have gone or downgraded to smaller stores.  HMV went last year, Debehams only recently.  These shops were a huge part of my growing up, and I regret their loss.  I miss them.

But... its my fault.  Well, not all my own, but just like many people, I moved my shopping online.  I changed how I shopped, where I shopped and what kind of things I bought.  These shops fell because of people like me. 

Shops fell because they didn't embrace online retail and weren't ready for Amazon. 

Amazon undercut all retail shops before retail shops knew how to counter cut Amazon. 

In 2020 a ToysRUs, Radio Shack, even Virgin Megastore could survive in the retail space.  They all failed because they didn't want online sales to take away from brick and mortar sales.  Right now you go into Best Buy, you look up the hard drive or camera accessory and check Amazons price and if it's cheaper Best Buy will match it.  No waiting a day two or three for Amazon and you get to see items before you buy them. 

Stores closing had nothing to do with you buying online.  Do you remember how long it took for Best Buy to price match?  People are flooding into the store to buy items in person.  People still get sucked into big store shopping experiences.

I get your point and I do miss stores that closed down.  Remember Blockbuster ?  The had the world in their pocket and were flowing in cash.  I would have never ever thought they could go under like they did. 

All stores have to do is price match Amazon and go all in with customer service, in-store-pick-up and returns.  Online orders are a pain for returns, not knowing if products suck or not and damage while being shipped. 

8 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

So how did this thread get derailed into some stupid format war....again?

I think that was because the GH5 was mentioned.

3 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

And finally, the people that think MFT is dead (it could be). Why do you take the 5-10 minutes to write some post about how it’s dead and how FF is king? I rarely see MFT users coming on a board and saying FF is dead because it doesn’t have a 300mm f4 lenses they is lightweight. They are always defending their choice of gear to make something with.

Olympus falling (isn't that a movie) is connected to MFT and not a good sign. That's my take.

I try to respond to people that reply to my comments.

29 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I want to move to S35, with one eye on fullframe.  I know many cameras are pushing fullframe, but its not there yet in my opinion.  There's still compromise and manufacturer are all over the place.  Sony still needs work on its colour and to get back in the game and take video seriously again.  Panasonic need to either make good on CDAF or embrace PDAF.  Nikon are just being Nikon... hard to know where they stand.  I'm waiting for the right fullframe camera.  I've not seen it yet.   

The great thing with MFT was that it wasn't just a sensor size, but also the lens mount.  Lenses bought for the GH cameras could be used on any MFT camera like Olympus and the Pocket 4K.  Fullframe though is a mixed bag of lens mounts.  I struggle with this; it makes jumping into fullframe more difficult, especially as I will have to invest in new lenses should I move to fullframe.  I really have no idea which fullframe lenses to buy and which would give me options for the future and not tie me to any brand of cameras.  I wish there was one defining lens mount for fullframe, then I could buy a lens and feel I could easily use it on any fullframe camera without worrying about adaptors.

 

I think Canon is going to lead the way with the R5 for FF hybrid shooting with video being priority.   It should check all the boxes and be far ahead of everyone else.  The dark horse will be BlackMagic for FF.  With the price drop on the P6K I'm not sure how sales are going for them.  They can't be making big profit on those cameras.

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

There's that old adage, it's not what you say, its how you say it.  No one likes being spoken down to.  The tone in your posts often conveys you know better than us, which only puts peoples backs up.  Now your recent post I gave a 'like' to is more on the level and a little less confrontational.  Maybe you like it that way, but others don't.  

For the record, I'm a user of the GH5, GH5s, GH4 and loads of MFT lenses.  I agree the writing is on the wall for MFTs, but I don't think that's a good thing.  Not everyone wants or needs to shoot fullframe.  I've met many who prefer a smaller sensors for various reasons, weight, size and smaller lenses being most quoted, plus their ability to adapt to almost any lens is a bonus.   

I also feel the GH5 colour isn't as consistent as say my Pocket 4K for example, especially in regard to skin tones.  The GH5s is a bit better.  That said, it takes experience with the camera and knowing the right lenses to use with it to bring the best out of it.  I've always queried some users who work with it a few times and wonder why they're not getting good results.  It needs pandering to, the GH5.  That said, I'm trying to move away from MFT and the Panasonic brand myself.  A GH6 could tempt me back if ever made, but it would need to add features I need and not just add say 8K to it and leave it at that.  

So yes, I do agree with some of your comments for the record; but they're let down by your attitude.  Really, my best advice, stop treating forums as your personal battleground.  The best people who post here add a touch of humility to their points.  

I'll work on my attitude. I can't promise anything and most will keep down voting my comments but I'm trying to help and give my take when I have one.  I will try.

What are you trying to move into? FF or Super35 ?

I used MFT, moved to Super35 and then FF.  Right now I could go Super35 if the right camera for the right price presented itself.  FF is frustrating because you still have to buy into a system.  Canon might be the way to go but we have to see final specs and real world testing.  I very much want to move to Canon.  Sony doesn't seem to want to innovate anymore and I don't trust them to be dedicated to FF down the road.  I love the S1 and S1H and would move to Panasonic but the AF bothers me.  I don't think AF is as bad as people say but I need to test it before I buy it. 

59 minutes ago, noone said:

This!

The other thing is posting OPINIONS as fact ( and arguing with people over OPINIONS who have a different opinion?).

If I say something as fact that is clearly wrong, then i expect to be told but my opinion is based on what i see and read and how many times i have gone around the sun using a wide variety of photo equipment for decades. 

It also helps if people can back up the things they say they are or do.

I know squat about video so I am here to learn the little bits I want   

Regards the GH5, plenty of people are doing just fine with a GH5, not a camera for me but my nephew is happy using it to earn a large part of his living.

here comes an opinion....I think Olympus just could not handle money in the way a western country company would.    They have been plagued by scandals (geez they hid a BILLION dollar loss for years not so long ago) and as Thom Hogan says, Japanese law and customs made it difficult for them to do anything to stem the flow of bleeding money now.

 

 

Do I need to state what comments are facts and what are opinions?

If clear anything in the future is opinion.  It should be clear what's fan boy talk and talk about the GH5 short comings.  The GH5 color issues should be apparent based on what cameras have followed them.  The P4K showed us what was possible with a 4K sensors packaged at a lower price.  The Z Cam E2 let the world know what great clean color a 4K sensor could produce.  The last two comments are fact and not opinion.  You might not like to read them because it sheds how far we've come from the GH5. 

The P4K and Z Cam E2 are the reasons why I won't buy a MFT camera and never recommend using the GH5.  These two cameras prove my opionon about the GH5 is correct, that the GH5 is all spec with a picture that doesn't hold up to today's standards. 

You only have one shot to capture that footage.  Think about that next time you hit record.

On an important shoot I'm renting an ARRI or RED.

1 hour ago, SteveV4D said:

As for the future, whilst I can see why many want or need a hybrid camera that does video and photo, only Blackmagic seem to have released a dedicated for video only camera in that lower price bracket.  I'd love to see other manufacturers try their hand at one.  Canon tried something interesting along those lines with the XC10, but it was a fixed lens.  Maybe other users here disagree and prefer hybrids, but I'm someone who went to Turkey with my GH5 and shot video with it, whilst taking photos on my smartphone. 

Z Cam E2 is in the same price range and video only.