5 concerning trends in photo/video forums

[Eric Calabros]

1- the rate of decline in engagement in all of the photo/video forums and websites is depressing. Even comment sections are mini ghost towns compared to same place ten years ago. Maybe social media is stealing a lot of that free time usually spent on traditional web in the past. 

2- many of those people who could write informative blog posts are now like "why bother writting any more when no one reads any more?". Today they're making videos, and try hard to make it 10 min long, which means they have to add a lot of water to the milk. 

3- I don't see any other industry with so much negativity about the major brands of that industry. Telling people they don't need and shouldn't buy new released products is a norm in our corner of internet fora! There is hype moments before and after press release days, but overall discouragement is way bigger. But look at car enthusiasts or audiophiles online communities...They're constantly encourage each other to buy more!

4- lack of communication between experienced users and newcomers is hurting everyone, and sometimes it's sad. Many people who are upgrading from smartphone, are making mistakes related to misunderstandings that discussed and explained and solved seven years ago. They just don't know where to find the knowledge.

5-  a tendency to reduce everything to "matter of taste" has emerged to the point that the whole concept of critique apears as moot point, like there is no wrong way and right way of doing things!

 

Maybe its overthinking. I don't know.. just wanted to share my thoughts. 

[kye]

3 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

3- I don't see any other industry with so much negativity about the major brands of that industry. Telling people they don't need and shouldn't buy new released products is a norm in our corner of internet fora! There is hype moments before and after press release days, but overall discouragement is way bigger. But look at car enthusiasts or audiophiles online communities...They're constantly encourage each other to buy more!

I disagree about audiophile communities, which I was part of for a couple of decades from the mid-90s on.

The parallels I see are:

• Blind-belief is the default perspective for most of the people involved - those who believe that specs are what matters vs those who think that aesthetics are the only thing that matters - and neither side is willing to reach across the chasm so communication is rare
• Fanaticism is common - which could be to some subset of specifications or one particular manufacturer who can never do any wrong
• Doing things yourself is almost always deemed impossible and the very few people doing it are frequently hassled by the people telling them that it can't be done
• The default mindset is that price = performance - this is emphasised in both directions
• Egoists pour money into the most expensive products and then show them off online for attention
• Micro-details will get a 50-page thread where people argue about things, but discussion about music (which is the whole point of the whole damned thing) rarely gets more than casual engagement

Where I see EOSHD as being somewhat different is that people here can often see across both sides of the tech vs aesthetics debate.  I was in a pocket of audiophiles who doing high-end DIY and meeting physically and who also knew that both specifications and aesthetics mattered, so I'm aware they exist, but we were unicorns and this mindset was virtually unknown online.

To me the above tendencies are a natural and predictable outcome based on human psychological weakness and a consumer culture.  Thinking is hard, the topics are enormously complex (involving physics, analog and digital electronics, human sensory organs, psychology, and artistic preferences and tastes), there are vested interests everywhere, and humans have a deep desire to feel like they are safe and that the world isn't chaos, so we tend to cling to pre-defined theories of the world despite being presented with evidence to the contrary.

[MrSMW]

1. Probably

2. Maybe

3. There does seem to be a majority ‘you don’t need anything new’ mantra in the photo community. There has always been a certain elitism in the photo world.

4. Not surprising. Almost every new person that joins this place asks a ‘what should I buy?’ question, gets many detailed responses…rarely responds to that themselves and is never heard from again.

5. To be expected I think. Tastes vary wildly.

[D Verco]

8 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

1- the rate of decline in engagement in all of the photo/video forums and websites is depressing. Even comment sections are mini ghost towns compared to same place ten years ago. Maybe social media is stealing a lot of that free time usually spent on traditional web in the past. 

A lot of this has moved to discord etc. which sucks because there's so much information being written and discussed that will never be accessible again once it's moved too far up the convo chain. Messaging communities are great but you need a link to access, and nothing will ever be searchable via google either. 

[kye]

12 minutes ago, D Verco said:

A lot of this has moved to discord etc. which sucks because there's so much information being written and discussed that will never be accessible again once it's moved too far up the convo chain. Messaging communities are great but you need a link to access, and nothing will ever be searchable via google either. 

My impression of those discussions was that it was hard for any meaningful discussions to be had because replies are so short and you're never sure who is replying to who.  

There's a phrase in social-media startups for having too much content in your feed, it's called "drinking from the firehose".  It's mostly regarded as a bad thing and indicates that something has gone wrong in how the system is configured or designed, or if done deliberately it's kind of regarded as an extreme thing to do.

Discord feels like drinking from the firehose to me.  Is this your experience of it?

[Eric Calabros]

Just now, D Verco said:

Messaging communities are great but you need a link to access, and nothing will ever be searchable via google either. 

Even in Telegram, the best messaging app that can be used for documentation, channel address is editable, and when it happens all the links will be broken. And search doesn't search the channels and groups you're not aware they exist. 

[Andrew Reid]

22 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

1- the rate of decline in engagement in all of the photo/video forums and websites is depressing.

It's being hoovered up by Meta and X.

Facebook Groups especially. Most of the content on the internet is now on just a few major social media networks. Smartphones are partly responsible as a desktop website doesn't work as well as an app on a small screen without a keyboard.

22 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

2- many of those people who could write informative blog posts are now like "why bother writting any more when no one reads any more?"

Yes definitely a shift to video informercials.

22 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

3- Look at car enthusiasts or audiophiles online communities...They're constantly encourage each other to buy more!

The enjoyment they get out of cars and hifi is huge.

But a car without a road and hifi without music isn't very much fun.

With cameras it's the same, they are only fulfilling when you have something worthwhile to shoot, or at least the expectation of something in the future, other than just testing, but unfortunately there is less stuff worthwhile to shoot around at the moment. Fewer actors, writers, communities of artists, and less beauty in the world full stop.

22 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

4- lack of communication between experienced users and newcomers is hurting everyone, and sometimes it's sad.

Yeah a lot of the leading pros have withdrawn back into their careers and don't give as much input into the community. When it was an emerging area they were all over it, but I guess the use (and knowledge) they can get out of us peaked a long time ago.

22 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

5-  a tendency to reduce everything to "matter of taste" has emerged to the point that the whole concept of critique apears as moot point, like there is no wrong way and right way of doing things!

Yeah this is a good point, have noticed that. This comes with the hyper-subjective and ultra-personal perspective of most people today rather than being part of a collective and objective whole. Each person has their atomised 'version' of the truth.

22 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Maybe its overthinking. I don't know.. just wanted to share my thoughts. 

Very relevant thoughts.

I feel the same way.

Hopefully things take a turn for the better soon and people go back to being more productive and spend less time on their phones.

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Hopefully things take a turn for the better soon and people go back to being more productive and spend less time on their phones.

You think that’s likely Andrew?! 

Society as you well know is always changing whether we as individuals like it or not.

With every generation now, I think it’s happening faster than ever so where our grandparents had a lot in common with their grandparents, these days even having anything in common with your own kids is hard.

I’m not saying ZERO connection, just the gap is increasing exponentially.

Attention spans are decreasing rapidly as is effort.

And the latter I find can actually work in a business aspect because those that are still prepared to make that extra bit of effort…

Maybe you can’t fight the tide fully, but there are ways to slow it.

I’m not interested in Facebook groups etc. If my kind of ‘stuff’ such as forums etc cease to exist, I won’t replace them. Maybe if I was a 20 or 30 something, but I can’t be bothered now…

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 8/4/2023 at 8:08 PM, Eric Calabros said:

1- the rate of decline in engagement in all of the photo/video forums and websites is depressing. Even comment sections are mini ghost towns compared to same place ten years ago. Maybe social media is stealing a lot of that free time usually spent on traditional web in the past. 

2- many of those people who could write informative blog posts are now like "why bother writting any more when no one reads any more?". Today they're making videos, and try hard to make it 10 min long, which means they have to add a lot of water to the milk. 

3- I don't see any other industry with so much negativity about the major brands of that industry. Telling people they don't need and shouldn't buy new released products is a norm in our corner of internet fora! There is hype moments before and after press release days, but overall discouragement is way bigger. But look at car enthusiasts or audiophiles online communities...They're constantly encourage each other to buy more!

4- lack of communication between experienced users and newcomers is hurting everyone, and sometimes it's sad. Many people who are upgrading from smartphone, are making mistakes related to misunderstandings that discussed and explained and solved seven years ago. They just don't know where to find the knowledge.

5-  a tendency to reduce everything to "matter of taste" has emerged to the point that the whole concept of critique apears as moot point, like there is no wrong way and right way of doing things!

 

Maybe its overthinking. I don't know.. just wanted to share my thoughts. 

1 - Yep, they are. As I said sometimes here, I'm in a Telegram group that have a lot of younger "content creators", mostly talking about gear shopping, but sometimes giving filmmaking hints to each other. NEVER in this almost 8 months there I saw a link to some forum or webpage. Ever. All links are to Youtube or Instagram.

2 - Which leads from the previous point. People want videos, nobody reads anymore. Even some blog guys like Gordon Laing or Robin Wong are putting more efforts on Youtube.
I like Youtube to see some tests like AF, recording the camera screen to show how the detection is ocurring, but few people do that. Or to show some ergonomics. The rest, I prefer text, but is a dying preference.

3 - Fanboyism is a long staple in camera community. For me is a human necessity to prove themselves right - I bought this camera / lens, and I will defend that I made THE BEST decision. And as @MrSMWsaid, there is a ‘you don’t need anything new’ mantra - which, specially for stills, is very true. Video is still being improved, but for stills the only tangible upgrade was in the AF section. 

4 - For experienced people to comunicate with newer genrations is hard - because these people tend to lend long explanations telling just not HOW to solve a problem, but also WHY that was the solution. Which is a good thing - it increases the knowledge of the reader.
But nowadays people wants FAST solutions, don't want to even search for themselves. Last week in the already mentioned Telegram group, one guy made a very basic question, and I gave him the solution.
THE NEXT message in the channel was another guy...making THE SAME question. Yeah, he not only did not made a previous search, but did not even to bother read THE PREVIOUS MESSAGE. And this is the norm.

[John Matthews]

Something that I've noticed is that Chat GPT seems to give efficient and relevant answers to almost any subject, including cameras. It's straight to the point, no BS, no political stuff, no opinions, etc. Only, sometimes, it's flat-out wrong. Here are some of my questions that I've asked, only because I was curious:

• Does 4k 8 bit have more or less information as 1080p 10 bit?
• What about 4k 4:2:0 vs 2k 4:2:0 10 bit?
• What about 4k 4:2:2 8 bit vs 2k 4:2:0 10 bit?
• How about 2k 4:2:2 vs 2k 4:2:0 10 bit?
• Does 2k 4:2:2 8 bit have more information than 4k 4:2:0 8 bit?
• Is 4k or 4k downresed to 2k better for avoiding moiré patterns?
• What post-processing techniques specifically designed to address moiré are there?
• Can you explain clone stamping techniques and can you do it with a basic video editor?
• Will shooting in v-log help with moiré?
• Can shooting at higher frame rates help with moiré?
• In terms of detail, can humans see the difference between 2k and 4k at normal viewing distances?
• In terms of percentage of resolution increase, what's the difference between 2k and SD?
• Is there the same perceptible clarity between 2k and 4k?
• What are the benefits of recording in 24fps rather than 23.978fps?
• How are digital cinema files prepared (file format, bit-rate, frame rates) for cinema theaters?

I feel a little "embarrassed" to ask some of these questions simply because I don't want to have others take time to answer them. Also, AI just gives me what I want, nothing more. No need for sifting through info or moderation. Forums used to be a place for some of these questions, now ChatGPT does the job.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Here are some of my questions that I've asked, only because I was curious

Was the answer to all of these, “Let’s get undone”?

[MrSMW]

Just now, MrSMW said:

Was the answer to all of these, “Let’s get undone”?

Being serious, that’s actually quite interesting John and I will try it myself next time I have a question I need answering.

[kye]

14 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Something that I've noticed is that Chat GPT seems to give efficient and relevant answers to almost any subject, including cameras. It's straight to the point, no BS, no political stuff, no opinions, etc. Only, sometimes, it's flat-out wrong. Here are some of my questions that I've asked, only because I was curious:

• Does 4k 8 bit have more or less information as 1080p 10 bit?
• What about 4k 4:2:0 vs 2k 4:2:0 10 bit?
• What about 4k 4:2:2 8 bit vs 2k 4:2:0 10 bit?
• How about 2k 4:2:2 vs 2k 4:2:0 10 bit?
• Does 2k 4:2:2 8 bit have more information than 4k 4:2:0 8 bit?
• Is 4k or 4k downresed to 2k better for avoiding moiré patterns?
• What post-processing techniques specifically designed to address moiré are there?
• Can you explain clone stamping techniques and can you do it with a basic video editor?
• Will shooting in v-log help with moiré?
• Can shooting at higher frame rates help with moiré?
• In terms of detail, can humans see the difference between 2k and 4k at normal viewing distances?
• In terms of percentage of resolution increase, what's the difference between 2k and SD?
• Is there the same perceptible clarity between 2k and 4k?
• What are the benefits of recording in 24fps rather than 23.978fps?
• How are digital cinema files prepared (file format, bit-rate, frame rates) for cinema theaters?

I feel a little "embarrassed" to ask some of these questions simply because I don't want to have others take time to answer them. Also, AI just gives me what I want, nothing more. No need for sifting through info or moderation. Forums used to be a place for some of these questions, now ChatGPT does the job.

I'd be happy to talk about these things.

In terms of ChatGPT, it is predictive-text on steroids with no understanding of reality or logic or anything else other than parroting the internet back to us, therefore it is probably a better bet than most online replies!

[John Matthews]

34 minutes ago, kye said:

I'd be happy to talk about these things.

In terms of ChatGPT, it is predictive-text on steroids with no understanding of reality or logic or anything else other than parroting the internet back to us, therefore it is probably a better bet than most online replies!

Good to hear that there are still people willing to go very in-depth in such nerdy topics.

Yesterday, I tried asking ChatGPT about the notion of equivalencies, a hot topic on forums. It failed miserably. I asked for a MFT equivalent of shooting my grandmother's 1936 Rolliecord. I know the "rough" answer, but ChatGPT kept making mathematical mistakes. I have to say I'm super impressed with it though. As an English teacher, it's a tremendous tool. For filmmakers, it's great too.

My point with my post was to say that Forums could get eaten up by such services if the forum is mainly used for "help in learning". AI seems to be better, faster, and have fewer barriers to getting decent responses. Also, I've only been using the free version. The paid version is better, I'm sure.

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

AI seems to be better, faster, and have fewer barriers to getting decent responses.

Plus no personal bias and doesn't judge you based on your choices 😉

[IronFilm]

On 8/5/2023 at 11:08 AM, Eric Calabros said:

1- the rate of decline in engagement in all of the photo/video forums and websites is depressing. Even comment sections are mini ghost towns compared to same place ten years ago. Maybe social media is stealing a lot of that free time usually spent on traditional web in the past. 

Facebook Groups have unfortunately replaced a lot of the usage which were webforums before. 
 

On 8/5/2023 at 11:08 AM, Eric Calabros said:

Telling people they don't need and shouldn't buy new released products is a norm in our corner of internet fora!

Stuff is so good these days already, that is why. 

Take a look for instance at prosumer (or upper level consumer level) grade Nikon DSRLs, from the early 2000's to the mid 2010's then arguably every release was a "must upgrade" camera release for anybody who was semi serious about their photography. 

Nikon D70 (6MP) to D80 (10MP! Along with a bigger screen, etc) to D90 (CMOS sensor, much better lowlight! Also first ever DSLR with HD video. Lots of other features too, such as 50% faster FPS) to D7000 (16MP! Along with heaps more new features such as dual SD cards, FHD, more FPS, deeper buffer, live view, way more focus points, etc) to D7100 (24MP!! Along with the usual heaps more improvements in lots of other areas)

But now, how exciting was the D7100 to D7200 release? Or the D7500 release? (especially if you don't care about 4K)

Many D7100 owners wouldn't find it to be a worthwhile upgrade. 

This was just a closer quick look at one particular series of models over the years, but the same thing has been true with all sorts of other camera releases. 

That's another reason why the excitement levels and the amount of chatter on webforums is not the same today as it was a decade ago. 

[IronFilm]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:36 AM, Marcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

And as @MrSMWsaid, there is a ‘you don’t need anything new’ mantra - which, specially for stills, is very true. Video is still being improved, but for stills the only tangible upgrade was in the AF section. 

Video however is rapidly getting to the point where photo gear is at, when there is no noticeable major improvement from one generation to the next. 

I'd even arguably say we're already there!

On 8/8/2023 at 2:57 AM, John Matthews said:

Something that I've noticed is that Chat GPT seems to give efficient and relevant answers to almost any subject, including cameras.

Sadly their training data doesn't include facebook groups, or telegram, etc

Makes me worry for the future? As there will be less and less content on "the open web" for LLMs to train on

On 8/8/2023 at 2:57 AM, John Matthews said:

It's straight to the point, no BS, no political stuff, no opinions, etc.

Eh, they do show some political bias. 

 

On 8/8/2023 at 5:59 PM, John Matthews said:

but ChatGPT kept making mathematical mistakes. I

GPT4 is far far far better at math/logic than GPT3 (and using the Wolfram plugin is a big leap forward again). 

One of the many reasons to pay for ChatGPT Plus

 

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Video however is rapidly getting to the point where photo gear is at, when there is no noticeable major improvement from one generation to the next. 

I'd even arguably say we're already there!

Indeed. My X-S20 just arrived, and have 6k 10-bit 4:2:2 with good(ish?) AF and IBIS in a body roughly bigger than a GX85. 4-5 years ago, it was unthinkable.

But ergos are all over the place - this a thing that could improve. I've taken my GH2 out of the dry box to use it to test the last m43 lenses that I'm selling. First, this thing is freaking small - since the GH3 we forgot how small it was. And, even small...look at the image.

Left dial, focus area, with a lever to switch the AF mode. Main dial (with 3 custom positions!) with two lever, one to set drive mode and other is the on-off switch (in a amazing position, very easy to access with the thumb). 

I miss this a lot.

(and good internal mics - the GH2 mics are VERY good, much better than all the other Pannys that I had (never had a GH5 or G9, though).

[TomTheDP]

It is that way for all forum communities. Facebook for instance has groups that are pretty popular and everyone goes there. 

Everything is definitely more watered down now. Facebook groups don't have the type of info this forum does. 

Less people buying cameras now doesn't help either. Not everyone needs DSLR when a phone does such a good job. I also discourage people from buying a ton of gear. From my experience it is just waste of money unless you are a making money on it. Even the people making money are usually spending too way to much on equipment that barely benefits them. It's one thing if gear is your hobby. However I have seen a lot of people that were artists and then become gear heads and lost sight of actually creating. 

[Ty Harper]

I was a club hip-hip deejay in another life and grew up thinking the record store (like these forums) would always be the community meeting place for all things pertaining to deejay culture. Then the digital revolution came and changed everything. But it didn't happen overnight. We just started going to the record store less and less as it became clearer and clearer that Serato had disrupted the vinyl-spinning era and deejaying as we knew it. Then Serato started added more features that rendered the skill sets deejays had spent their entire careers honing (like beat-matching, beat juggling, transitioning to acapellas etc, etc) and coveting, completely irrelevant. Fast forward almost 20 years later, and now streaming (and soon AI) have made being a deejay super-accessible, but also super hard to monetize, while rooting it in motivations and incentives that share little with what it meant to be a 'real deejay' pre-digital revolution.

All that to say that I think what some are feeling/seeing is a similar shift, a transformation, a departure from the online filmmaking/video culture we've been familiar with, to something else.