Jump to content

Canon EOS R6 shoots 10bit 4K/60 (but NO RAW) - How it compares to the EOS R5


Andrew Reid
 Share

Recommended Posts

The R6 does not seem to have an all Ai option for 23.98 h265 with c-log on , severely curtailing the available bitrate.

 

30fps can do All intra with 470mbps at 4k  but 23.98 is limited to ipb (4K) at 170mbps... If this is true, it is very mean indeed......

Screenshot 2020-07-09 at 8.27.42 PM.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I had the money, this looks a nice camera and  much of the market it is aimed at will LOVE it.       The R5 is ridiculous to me (more a look what we can do type thing than something most people can actually use as things go).      Of course you CAN get the R5 and not/hardly use its headline features but that is a large tax to pay for that.

Next up, I expect Sony to both surprise and disappoint and I think Sony really needs an A7iv against the R6 (for actual sales) more than it needs a A7siii against the R5 (for status).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think (on the R6 for sure anyway, which is the only realistic price tag to even talk about vs these other cameras) the video codecs are overall kind of only par with current gen Pana/Fuji cameras in this range, but it would be the first time it's being pulled off with both proper AF (Pana fails here) and proper IBIS (Fuji fails here) together.
Sounds like a big question mark over whether the dynamic range will measure up to either of those brands' flagships though. Some other little gotchas such as inflexible fps options (you basically just get one single high framerate mode 120p and that's it?), All-i vs IPB forced on you in some modes, and the thing where you can't capture on SD in some modes.
Not drooling over it so far, for some reason. I got into cameras only around 2017 and I think my brain has a hard time even getting used to the idea of a Canon mirrorless (or DSLR) leading the way for video.

When a ~€2k (or less!) mirrorless finally does 4k above 60p, even with a little extra crop, say 90fps or something, I'll feel like that's something next level. Would be really awesome if the R6 4k didn't max out at 60p.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, josdr said:

The R6 does not seem to have an all Ai option for 23.98 h265 with c-log on , severely curtailing the available bitrate.

 

30fps can do All intra with 470mbps at 4k  but 23.98 is limited to ipb (4K) at 170mbps... If this is true, it is very mean indeed......

Screenshot 2020-07-09 at 8.27.42 PM.png

ALL-I is sampling 3 x the frames of IPB, so IPB can be a third of the size and get away with it, at least in terms of compression. But yeah this table shows the R6 is a bit of a mixed bag...

H265 is twice as efficient as H264 so only needs half the bit rate. The R6’s 45mbps for 23.98p FHD, for example, would need 90mbps in H264. For comparison the R Classic also shoots 24p FHD in H264 at a rate of 90mbps, but in ALL-I. As ALL-I is sampling 3 x the frames of IPB this would mean the R6 is 3 x less compressed than the R, if both were capturing 8 bit colour info, BUT the R6 is processing 10 bit, ie more data.

Lack of ALL-I is a shame. IPB is why the R6 does not have the true 24p of the R Classic and R5 and is only offering 23.98p - it’s just not capturing 24 true frames. I see true 24p and ALL-I being more desirable for filmmakers especially as ALL-I has fewer motion artefacts. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, PaulUsher said:

ALL-I is sampling 3 x the frames of IPB, so IPB can be a third of the size and get away with it, at least in terms of compression. But yeah this table shows the R6 is a bit of a mixed bag...

H265 is twice as efficient as H264 so only needs half the bit rate. The R6’s 45mbps for 23.98p FHD, for example, would need 90mbps in H264. For comparison the R Classic also shoots 24p FHD in H264 at a rate of 90mbps, but in ALL-I. As ALL-I is sampling 3 x the frames of IPB this would mean the R6 is 3 x less compressed than the R, if both were capturing 8 bit colour info, BUT the R6 is processing 10 bit, ie more data.

Lack of ALL-I is a shame. IPB is why the R6 does not have the true 24p of the R Classic and R5 and is only offering 23.98p - it’s just not capturing 24 true frames. I see true 24p and ALL-I being more desirable for filmmakers especially as ALL-I has fewer motion artefacts. 

My "previous gen" X-T3 shoots 400mbit h265 all-i  10 bit in 23.98 so I am quite surprised in what Canon did here. This is heavy handed to say the least . the r6 does not make sense for cinematography as it stands. They could have easily given it the 23.98 All i treatment . You are of course right in saying that " true 24p and ALL-I being more desirable for filmmakers especially as ALL-I has fewer motion artefacts"..

I would have loved the Canon AF but this makes it a no go...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure this was discussed, but:

"Ok, now onto the sensor, a 20 Megapixel full-framer that’s based on the one in the 1Dx Mark III DSLR but now with a different low pass filter and able to support dual pixel autofocus on uncropped 4k 60p video – remember the 1Dx III made you choose between a crop or manual focus when filming 4k 60"

I wonder if it also means that the rolling shutter is not improved in 60p unlike the 1DX III

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, josdr said:

My "previous gen" X-T3 shoots 400mbit h265 all-i  10 bit in 23.98 so I am quite surprised in what Canon did here. This is heavy handed to say the least . the r6 does not make sense for cinematography as it stands. They could have easily given it the 23.98 All i treatment . You are of course right in saying that " true 24p and ALL-I being more desirable for filmmakers especially as ALL-I has fewer motion artefacts"..

I would have loved the Canon AF but this makes it a no go...

Your xt3 was 4:2:0. The difference between all-i and ipb is a spec sheet analysis in most cases. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, padam said:

Not sure this was discussed, but:

"Ok, now onto the sensor, a 20 Megapixel full-framer that’s based on the one in the 1Dx Mark III DSLR but now with a different low pass filter and able to support dual pixel autofocus on uncropped 4k 60p video – remember the 1Dx III made you choose between a crop or manual focus when filming 4k 60"

I wonder if it also means that the rolling shutter is not improved in 60p unlike the 1DX III

It has to be improved by definition in 60p surely? The maximum possible is under 17ms.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Have you tested on 10 bit footage? 

Heheh well with the R we have to shoot 10 bit on the Ninja V - and ProRes is always intraframe so no way to compare..

10-bit will have more colour info and I don't know how much that will help with fast moving subjects, so let’s just hope the IPB footage from the R6 looks great for some other reason. All things being equal IPB has worse blurring artefacts than ALL-I and that’s just a result of the compression method. If the R5 has ALL-I, and the R6 could have had ALL-I, then it's fair to say that the R6's compression method has been dumbed-down to differentiate the models.

Whether anyone else really notices or cares in another thing. But I have stopped shooting IPB because I didn’t like even the occasional ghost-like blur I got from it (for others who shoot slomo - I don't - they could notice it even more in the R6's 60p IPB) - plus it doesn’t edit anywhere near as well as ALL-I on my iMac, though other folks say their mileage editing IPB varies depending on their computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there such a document on the EOS R6, that shows the estimated overheating times?

Or was that document by CVP released only for the R5, and this camera is not as susceptible to that?

Yeah IPB and micro-HDMI port are both annoying (maybe the 1.07x UHD crop is a little annoying, too)
But on the other hand, it costs almost three times less than the 1DX III with a similar sensor and processor the IBIS EVF and a flip screen, it can write to cheap media, and it does have AF enabled at all times and they did not take away things like joystick and dual card slots like they did with past 6D-series cameras.
Canon should be applauded that.

Looking the recording abilities of the R5, ALL-I wouldn't work continuously with 4k60p to UHS-II SD card in Canon cameras anyway, (needing CFExpress or it would work with CFast 2.0 as well)
But all the rest should have no limitations to use ALL-I, there is where the Cripple Hammer decided to hit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience is that bitrate impacts motion artefacts in IPB footage (higher=better, obvs). 170mbps in h265 is pretty high. Almost up there with the C300mkII 10bit ALL-I 4K (about 400mbps in h264 I believe). I’d be quite hopeful it’s going to be decent IPB, and I’d choose IPB a lot anyway, if I had the choice, simply to keep file size down. A Ninja V can be used if Intra frame is really needed. Hell, the C200 can’t even do 10bit external 4K. It’s not a disaster for me. 
 

Rolling shutter and overhearing remain the big question marks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was holding off considering an X-T4 until this dropped. And I gotta say, as good as some of the specs are, it looks like the Cripple Hammer is making this a less attractive to me than I'd hoped, especially without RAW to set it apart competitors. 

Specifically, the lack of DCI formats (and no true 24p frame rate) is a big downer. There's no good reason for it, other than to protect the R5. The codec issue everyone is talking about is also a bummer. And the recording time limit is a huge issue. True, Fujis also have a recording limit, but I've used them for more than an hour (heck for about 4 hours on one concert shoot) and haven't had a problem on my X-T3 with just stopping the recording when it timed out and starting again and getting the full time again. It sounds like both of the new R cameras have unchangeable, shorter recording limits for immediate recording restarts. Is that right? I do a number of concerts and other long-format public presentations each year (once things get back to normal) and this would be a problem, for me anyway.

Considering that B&H has the X-T4 packaged with a Ninja 5 right now for $2,226.90, I could pick that up now with a new Metabones Speedbooster Ultra for $2,875.9 for the full frame look with my EF lenses vs $2,898 for the R6 with the V-ND EF adapter ($2,598 for the bare-bones adapter).

With the Fuji I'd get to choose between Super 35 and Full Frame looks depending on lens selection, access to decent, dirt cheap mini-cine lenses (Meike), recording directly to easy to edit codecs with the Ninja with all of the great features of a 5-inch monitor plus record backup files on SD cards, the strip down to a small, light setup when required, and the joy of having to cameras that match when it comes to livestreaming or editing a two-camera setup. Oh, and better 1080 high frame rate options.

The pluses with the R6 would be better autofocus (though even the Philip Bloom video shows that with careful lens selection and setup the T4 gives acceptable autofocus) possibly better IBIS (I'm not sold on this until unbiased third-party reviewers get their hands on production models, plus Fuji seems committed to churning out firmware updates to smooth out the T4's IBIS).

Dynamic range will probably be a wash or a Fuji advantage. Same with rolling shutter. Actually, Canon hybrids have had poor rolling shutter lately, so I'm not hopeful for the R6.

I think my choice is pretty obvious. Am I missing anything?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...