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truth about Pocket 6k dynamic range


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This is a very strange one to me. I've seen online tests as well as examples from shoots I've been on of the Pocket 6k having really great dynamic range. Yet Blackmagic claims it has less dynamic range than the Ursa Mini and the same dynamic range as the Pocket 4k. Cinema 5d measured it at 11.9 stops while measuring the Ursa at 12.6. 

I tested the Pocket 6k against the URSA, both at 800 iso and the Pocket had more highlight and shadow information, by a good amount. If the Ursa has 12.6 stops of dynamic range the Pocket 6k has got to have over 13 maybe 13.5. 

I'll probably post the tests if anyone is interested. 

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This is a very strange one to me. I've seen online tests as well as examples from shoots I've been on of the Pocket 6k having really great dynamic range. Yet Blackmagic claims it has less dynamic rang

Welcome to the "I discovered that something that 'everyone knows' is completely wrong by simply trying it out myself" club. If this was a real club then my rank would be 'Grand General Lord - Cla

You could've at least quoted or linked where you copied this information from... 😆 https://cinematography.com/index.php?/topic/51973-dynamic-range-vs-latitude/

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8 minutes ago, heart0less said:

I got the same impression watching some comparisons. 

I wonder how much of this is simply Blackmagic worrying that they slightly overdid BMPCC6K, which could hurt their Ursa sales. Though, I doubt many people bought brand new Ursas during past two years. 

Could be for sure. When it was first announced I was super excited. I thought it was going to be shooting video similar to what my XT3 can do in RAW stills. It turns out that is close to being true. 

I've seen a lot of threads discussing Pocket 6k vs something higher end, and the lower dynamic range is always brought up. But it turns out the Pocket 6k is right up there with the C500 MK2 even the Alexa. 

Certainly there are advantages to an alexa or RED helium but its really getting slimmer and slimmer. The URSA G2 form factor, rolling shutter, form factor, and 4k 120fps and all still big advantages. But for me rolling shutter is rarely an issue and I am usually ready to take a hit on most things to put dynamic range at a priority. 

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2 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

This is a very strange one to me. I've seen online tests as well as examples from shoots I've been on of the Pocket 6k having really great dynamic range. Yet Blackmagic claims it has less dynamic range than the Ursa Mini and the same dynamic range as the Pocket 4k. Cinema 5d measured it at 11.9 stops while measuring the Ursa at 12.6. 

I tested the Pocket 6k against the URSA, both at 800 iso and the Pocket had more highlight and shadow information, by a good amount. If the Ursa has 12.6 stops of dynamic range the Pocket 6k has got to have over 13 maybe 13.5. 

I'll probably post the tests if anyone is interested. 

Please post some original files.

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4 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I've seen a lot of threads discussing Pocket 6k vs something higher end, and the lower dynamic range is always brought up. But it turns out the Pocket 6k is right up there with the C500 MK2 even the Alexa. 

Welcome to the "I discovered that something that 'everyone knows' is completely wrong by simply trying it out myself" club.

If this was a real club then my rank would be 'Grand General Lord - Class 15 - Special' because the number of times I've spent 30 minutes doing a test and found out everyone online is talking out of their asses about something is beyond counting at this point.

We should make t-shirts.

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8 hours ago, Deadcode said:

Please post some original files.

Will post up on Google Drive. Its not the best test in the world but it does demonstrate the Pocket 6k's greater dynamic range. I set both cameras to the same ISO, aperture, and shutter speed and used a 300w LED to clip the subjects face and see which could pull back more highlights. Then we did a rough shadow test. The URSA seemed to be on par with the Pocket shadow wise but you got the vertical fixed noise, which ruined it. 

Hopefully I can get them up today or tomorrow. 

My first indication was @Juan Melara Alexa Powergrade thread. He tested it against the Alexa and found the P6K had more highlight information. Then I saw someone posting how the Pocket 6k has more dynamic range than the RED helium. 

 

5 hours ago, kye said:

Welcome to the "I discovered that something that 'everyone knows' is completely wrong by simply trying it out myself" club.

If this was a real club then my rank would be 'Grand General Lord - Class 15 - Special' because the number of times I've spent 30 minutes doing a test and found out everyone online is talking out of their asses about something is beyond counting at this point.

We should make t-shirts.

haha yeah for sure. I feel like Blackmagic doesn't market their cameras well enough lol. They should put out their own dynamic range charts or tests against other cameras. The Pocket 6k would clean the floor with almost anything imho. 

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Ha I just sold my 6k, never used it due to corona. But should have done a test between my pocket 4k and my ursa mini pro. Well might buy one again in the future. (But for the moment looking into the r5, for a 2 in one kinda tool, allthough I am not travelling this year, carrying a seperate photo and video camera is kinda a pain)

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26 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I set both cameras to the same ISO, aperture, and shutter speed and used a 300w LED to clip the subjects face and see which could pull back more highlights. Then we did a rough shadow test. The URSA seemed to be on par with the Pocket shadow wise but you got the vertical fixed noise, which ruined it.

I'd love to see tests! So just to clarify, you didn't test them both at native ISO, which I believe is 800 for the Ursa Mini, but 400 for the P6K?

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1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

My first indication was @Juan Melara Alexa Powergrade thread. He tested it against the Alexa and found the P6K had more highlight information. Then I saw someone posting how the Pocket 6k has more dynamic range than the RED helium. 

Could you link these videos and I’d love to see your tests! 

I think an issue is that some companies are very liberal about the DR numbers On there cameras. I recently saw someone share a DR chart of the BMMCC that looked very similar to the Helium/Komodo chart that Red released, which have wildly different ratings (13-16+)
 

Your findings comparing the 4.6k and the 6K are interesting, I wonder if the higher resolution is helping the low end quite a bit. I do wonder how my 4K compares aswell. 

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Like this? ;)

Screenshot 2020-06-11 at 15.37.50.jpg

I think that particular thumbnail is from a low light comparison, but that's a very useful channel.

To my eye;

4.6K G2: 

https://vimeo.com/408639496

Highlights hold to about +4.5. Shadows go deep but get green and unusable around -4 or -4.5.

EVA1:

https://vimeo.com/399691355

Highlights hold almost to +5. Shadows go deep but heavy noise. Nice color linearity, but maybe good to -3.5?

https://vimeo.com/400031418

Amira clips around +5.5, maybe a bit better. Great color linearity but noisy, but nice noise texture. Good to -4.5 but noisy? So would measure much worse but it looks good. Subjective.

S1H:

https://vimeo.com/404396461

Pretty similar to EVA1, much more banding. Difficult to judge shadows because banding, noise texture, etc. is all more subjective than results on a wedge chart.

P6K:

https://vimeo.com/408524414

This was at 400 ISO. So it looks like +4 or +4.5 and -2 or -3 if you can tolerate some banding. But at 800 ISO that would be +5 or +5.5 and -1 or -2 but that's from banding, not noise. So if you don't underexpose and rate at 800 ISO I can see this being surprisingly close to an Alexa unless you need to dig into the shadows.

S1 has great highlight detail, not so good shadows:

https://vimeo.com/399496111Every result is fantastic. An embarrassment of riches on the market today. I don't entirely trust the methodology though.

 

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Considering the price difference to the Amira, the S1 and S1H hold up very well in comparison, a cinematic dynamic range is no longer the exclusive privilege of ARRI :)

MAVO LF and Pocket 6K are also on a similar level in that test.

So yes, the URSA G2 dynamic range, if it is better than Pocket 6K, is not distributed very far down in the blacks that's for sure.

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'Die Blackmagic Pocket CC 6K konkurriert mit der älteren und teureren Ursa G2 aus dem gleichem Haus. Diese neueste Pocket ist spärlicher ausgestattet als die Ursa, gefällt aber durch etwas verbesserten Dydamikumfang und kommt, dank Ihrer dualen nativen ISO, deutlich besser mit Lowlight-Situationen zurecht. Auch die Ursa zeigt in den Schatten einen deutlichen Drift ins Grüne.'

Google Translate

'The Blackmagic Pocket CC 6K competes with the older and more expensive Ursa G2 from the same house. This latest pocket is less well equipped than the Ursa, but pleases with a slightly improved Dynamic range and, thanks to its dual native ISO, copes with lowlight situations much better. The Ursa also shows a clear drift into the green in the shadows.'

Whoever did this test seems to agree with you.

On a side note, great job Panasonic, results look fantastic.
 

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21 hours ago, heart0less said:

I wonder how much of this is simply Blackmagic worrying that they slightly overdid BMPCC6K, which could hurt their Ursa sales. Though, I doubt many people bought brand new Ursas during past two years. 

Why do you think that? I know of people who purchased new URSAs during the last couple of years. 

As for the P6K, I thought they're using an identical sensor to the P4K but just a bigger cut of it? So a 4K crop of the P6K should be identical to the P4K?

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26 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Why do you think that? I know of people who purchased new URSAs during the last couple of years. 

As for the P6K, I thought they're using an identical sensor to the P4K but just a bigger cut of it? So a 4K crop of the P6K should be identical to the P4K?

I think it's different. Even the color rendition looks different.

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Tom Antos did this comparison below, in which he pushed the cameras both under and over, and he shows the results of pulling the exposure back in post so it's nice and clear.

What I'm not so clear on is if this is the right version of the Ursa that you're referring to?  There are a few and I'm not across all of them.

 

18 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

haha yeah for sure. I feel like Blackmagic doesn't market their cameras well enough lol. They should put out their own dynamic range charts or tests against other cameras. The Pocket 6k would clean the floor with almost anything imho. 

I think there are two challenges, the first is that if one brand directly compares their product to another brand then they can get sued, which seems odd, but seems to be a thing.  That's why any comparisons are always with a "leading competitor" instead of naming them directly.

The other challenge is that there is no official way to measure DR objectively.  When someone says it's 12.1 stops then they're choosing a level of noise, and had they chosen a different level of noise then it might have been 12.4 or 11.8.  So because there's no standard threshold you can't compare measurements done by different people against each other.  Even if we defined a number and everyone started testing against that number, there are other factors to consider too, such as the noise being an RMS, or peak-to-peak, or some other approach.

Remember how you used to go to big box stores and there were these tiny little boom boxes that said they were 3000W, but your home theatre system is only 100W and it's way louder?  That's a difference of measurement methodology.

You can, however, directly compare and see how a given camera compares to other cameras that you kind of have a reference for, so that's useful.  Reading a number for DR is less-so.

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7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Why do you think that? I know of people who purchased new URSAs during the last couple of years. 

I was just taking a guess and, well, you proved me wrong.
( :

From what I was seeing, many people started picking up either EVAs, Venices (hell, even Alexas) or - on the other hand - BMPCC4Ks, etc.
Since both Ursa and BMPCC6K are S35 and according to many tests BMPCC6K has a much better sensor, it's only natural for Blackmagic to slightly underestimate the cheaper offering to protect sales of their higher-grade camera.

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10 minutes ago, heart0less said:

I was just taking a guess and, well, you proved me wrong.
( :

From what I was seeing, many people started picking up either EVAs, Venices (hell, even Alexas) or - on the other hand - BMPCC4Ks, etc.
Since both Ursa and BMPCC6K are S35 and according to many tests BMPCC6K has a much better sensor, it's only natural for Blackmagic to slightly underestimate the cheaper offering to protect sales of their higher-grade camera.

The URSA series still has their place on set for "better workflow" than a Pocket camera. 

Plus just simply to make the producer/client feel like they're "getting their money's worth". (not so much the case with a pocket....)

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