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Panasonic FF L-mount Cine camera coming

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42 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

The GH5 was an upgrade to the GH4 and the next release can be even as far as price goes. 12 years ago the JVC camcorder that shot 720p was $8,000 plus a $5,000 tape deck. 

Think in reverse - if the GH5 was $1,999 at release just for the body, do you think Panasonic just dropped the price by $500 in the 1 1/2 years since it was released? That means the BMP4K will be $850 in another year. And it means the GH5s is over or under priced right now. 

 

Because the EOS PR came out under $1,500 - that's how the PR is competing with the Z6. Not everyone can spend 2K on a camera.

I don't think of the GH5S as an upgrade just an alternative. It was an upgrade in terms of low light performance, but they sacrificed megapixel count, resolution, and IBIS. There is really no reason to get a GH4 over a GH5. The GH5S and GH5 are a toss up though based on needs. 

But yeah I get what you are saying. 

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6 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Not sure if the GH5S was a disaster in sales. It hasn't seen a big drop in price like the Z6 has in a short time. 

I'd point to GH5 as a pattern of well balanced expectation and probably already deserved status of rare legend. But everything changed with Panasonic's calculation with GH5s that came almost year after, with price that inaugurated steps of +500, nothing less. Why I'm still on thread about no existing camera with just hook thrown to users - is to express worry and respect for Panasonic GH2's spirit. I was eager to buy GH5s, idea of make a pair with GH5 is clever and nice with their specs that complement but not surpassing each other - but  price was restrictive, tolerated just from those who can afford curiosity, who can immediately return expense etc. - but that's the moment where Panasonic lost balance with lower base or more need-to-move-fast base of indie filmmakers, staying stubborn while witnessing enormous success of Pocket 4k in spite of all its expected quirks...

Around me - no one of the extremely rare buyers from industry (planning to use it as B or C or sometimes A camera) didn't keep it longer than year, while still keeping GH5 -  every single one go to Pocket 4k. If I remember correctly, one of the benchmark user with great skill and opportunity whose works I admire greatly - mr Peters - in thread devoted to what to buy next to pair with GH5, didn't choose GH5s in spite of easiness he probably could return expense. How much all of that could be different just if Panasonic placed initial price of GH5s to 2000, showing also in that way that it is complementary camera? It seems to me that Panasonic made rigid long road projection of prices for products on producing line - and stubbornly stay with that projection as leading imperative. My feeling is that GH2's leading spirit was different, govern with more flexible idea of getting users at first place, not taking money form them. 

Look just numbers of pages in thread about P4k and GH5s that are closest competitors as could be... Grounded on fact information about disaster of sale I have, as wrote, just for my region of Europe... GH5s, produced initially in  far less pieces dropped price accordingly to GH5 (but always too late for better sale because of initial level), and at the moment reach around +/-1400 pounds, while GH5 is on the level +/- 1000 p. with 2 years warranty (that's where I can buy them with lowest price). But it is too late - with all enormous number of targeted users who already went with Pocket 4k and patiently/proudly wait their subscribed acquisitions to come. Panasonic even ignore better priced offer from Zcam, company that should be considered as hand made one in comparison with Panasonic mass production capacity.

I know that +/- 500 can be seen as too much or as not so significant. But, there surely exists some interesting threshold tolerance in users, when we started to react psychologically, not just as consumers. That's threshold of perceived treatment and global strategy profile or direction of manufacturers. (Maybe worth to note about direction is that Panasonic priced G90 in level of XT3 and Pocket 4k.) That's threshold when we more seriously start to look around weighting offers of others. I simply worry that Panasonic's dedicated team again makes even bigger mistake with this one 4000 for dream camera announcement. Camera that for months will tiе for itself greatest part of developing resources of Panasonic's division.

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2 hours ago, anonim said:

Look just numbers of pages in thread about P4k and GH5s that are closest competitors as could be... Grounded on fact information about disaster of sale I have, as wrote, just for my region of Europe... GH5s, produced initially in  far less pieces dropped price accordingly to GH5 (but always too late for better sale because of initial level), and at the moment reach around +/-1400 pounds, while GH5 is on the level +/- 1000 p. with 2 years warranty (that's where I can buy them with lowest price). But it is too late - with all enormous number of targeted users who already went with Pocket 4k and patiently/proudly wait their subscribed acquisitions to come. Panasonic even ignore better priced offer from Zcam, company that should be considered as hand made one in comparison with Panasonic mass production capacity.

I know that +/- 500 can be seen as too much or as not so significant. But, there surely exists some interesting threshold tolerance in users, when we started to react psychologically, not just as consumers. That's threshold of perceived treatment and global strategy profile or direction of manufacturers. (Maybe worth to note about direction is that Panasonic priced G90 in level of XT3 and Pocket 4k.) That's threshold when we more seriously start to look around weighting offers of others.

1)most of the pros I know here bought a GH5.

2) a lot of production conpanies bought 2-4 GH5 for very low budget jobs and multicamera systems

3) most of those bought a P4K or more.

4) I have never seen a GH5S

The GH5 is 1599€-1699€ and 1999€ on the main chains.

GH5S is 1999€ to 2399 and 2499 in main chains.

Where do you see 1000 and 1500£?

Usually profesionals and companies do not buy grey markeyt products, because we need the official warranty and tax and VAT reasons.

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You can buy GH5s for 1500£  with 2 years warranty at panamoz

https://panamoz.com/digital-cameras/panasonic/panasonic-lumix-dc-gh5s-mirrorless-micro-four-thirds-digital-camera-body-only.html

or with 12 months warranty for 1399 at einfin - https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/3545/panasonic_lumix_dc-gh5s_mirrorless_micro_four_thirds_digital_camera

At the moment you can buy it on "grey market" via eglobalcentral for 1398£ (although eglobal central is legal and extremely reliable shop from my experience)

https://www.eglobalcentraluk.com/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh5s-camera-body-only-pal.html

as well GH5 for 999£ with 12 months warranty at https://www.e-infin.com/uk/item/3282/panasonic_lumix_dc-gh5_mirrorless_digital_camera_(body_only)

From my region and possibility to buy (asking friends mostly in UK, rarely in USA and sometimes in China for favor) grey market acquisition of Panasonic products is risk that I'm ready to take. Panasonic is so great in that regard, because of unbeatable solidness and quality control of their products.

But recently I bought Pocket 4k with best found legal price of 1100£ in UK - even if exists grey market for Pocket4k  or BM products in general (but it never existed ), I wouldn't dare to buy it there... Simply, in comparison with Panasonic, BM is too unreliable regarding quality control. 

... So yes, GH5s dropped in price significantly pretty fast, but, as I wrote, too late, missing opportunity to indeed becomes a hit, exclusively because of wrong initial price estimation. Danger that, as I see it, is even more over the head of theme of this thread.

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I've bought a few things over the years from Panamoz - good price and fortunately not had to deal with their 2 year warranty they offer, not sure how that works - it's imported from Hong Kong so grey market. I have seen quite a few GH5s being used, mainly as b cams to people with Sony fs7 who prefer it to the 8 bit of the Sony a7 series. Nobody I know would use Sony's 8 bit slog for professional use - it is too brittle and falls apart at the slightest provocation. Compared to Canon 8 bit clog which is usable.

Attempting to get back on topic - I think the SH1 has a similar niche to the GH5s - it will be seen as a serious b cam for those using cameras such  as EVA1, Fs7, C200 and above - the rest of us mortals will see much more value in the S1 and GH5 respectively

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8 minutes ago, ade towell said:

I've bought a few things over the years from Panamoz - good price and fortunately not had to deal with their 2 year warranty they offer, not sure how that works - it's imported from Hong Kong so grey market. I have seen quite a few GH5s being used, mainly as b cams to people with Sony fs7 who prefer it to the 8 bit of the Sony a7 series. Nobody I know would use Sony's 8 bit slog for professional use - it is too brittle and falls apart at the slightest provocation. Compared to Canon 8 bit clog which is usable.

Actually, reputation of that few Hong Kong dealers in UK market extremely depends of severe public monitoring, good service and keeping warranty - because of more suspicion they normally gathered. So, as far as my experience go, they are really great and responsive.

As I wrote, GH5s showed 2-3 times in any level of production team in my area, and go back for the sale pretty soon to get most money back because of plan of investment in Pocket 4k. I never heard for anybody that use Sony consumer cameras in production, after initial hype about lowlight usability of Sony A7s. Even A7sII nobody use. I had opportunity to use Canon c100 II just once - my experience image wise and comfort is stunning.

But at the moment I consider BM Micro the most darling camera I ever had or tried :)

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The Canon c100 is a great camera with a lovely image for 8 bit, is a pity Canon never seemed interested in supporting it with a decent hybrid b cam. 

BM pocket 4k is a great camera too, but rightly or wrongly is haunted by the 'unreliable' reputation that has preceded other BM cameras. Is a pity as the image is wonderful, hopefully it will gain in trust and we get to see more of them used in productions

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Regarding question of A or B cameras, for my recent goal - struggling to organize team and budget for feature film - presence of RAW capability pop upped as the must one, of course because of the highest margin of production compensation possibility and flexibility in post. Depending of situation, I'm keeping on radar, as reachable, two offers of UMP4.6k mk1 nearby for around, I hope, 3.5k euros with some adds.

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Although talking of cameras under £10k the Varicam LT is now under £9,500 (I realise you need to spend more to get it up and running) and that image is hard to beat. The S1 and SH1 would be great b cam and gimbal cams to the Varicam with their 14 stops DR full V-log and Varicam colour gamut and 10 bit 422 internal. Neither Sony or Canon have such a small camera with high DR and 10 bit internal to support their higher end stuff, (although the lenses obviously have different mounts)

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7 hours ago, anonim said:

I'd point to GH5 as a pattern of well balanced expectation and probably already deserved status of rare legend. But everything changed with Panasonic's calculation with GH5s that came almost year after, with price that inaugurated steps of +500, nothing less. Why I'm still on thread about no existing camera with just hook thrown to users - is to express worry and respect for Panasonic GH2's spirit. I was eager to buy GH5s, idea of make a pair with GH5 is clever and nice with their specs that complement but not surpassing each other - but  price was restrictive, tolerated just from those who can afford curiosity, who can immediately return expense etc. - but that's the moment where Panasonic lost balance with lower base or more need-to-move-fast base of indie filmmakers, staying stubborn while witnessing enormous success of Pocket 4k in spite of all its expected quirks...

Around me - no one of the extremely rare buyers from industry (planning to use it as B or C or sometimes A camera) didn't keep it longer than year, while still keeping GH5 -  every single one go to Pocket 4k. If I remember correctly, one of the benchmark user with great skill and opportunity whose works I admire greatly - mr Peters - in thread devoted to what to buy next to pair with GH5, didn't choose GH5s in spite of easiness he probably could return expense. How much all of that could be different just if Panasonic placed initial price of GH5s to 2000, showing also in that way that it is complementary camera? It seems to me that Panasonic made rigid long road projection of prices for products on producing line - and stubbornly stay with that projection as leading imperative. My feeling is that GH2's leading spirit was different, govern with more flexible idea of getting users at first place, not taking money form them. 

Look just numbers of pages in thread about P4k and GH5s that are closest competitors as could be... Grounded on fact information about disaster of sale I have, as wrote, just for my region of Europe... GH5s, produced initially in  far less pieces dropped price accordingly to GH5 (but always too late for better sale because of initial level), and at the moment reach around +/-1400 pounds, while GH5 is on the level +/- 1000 p. with 2 years warranty (that's where I can buy them with lowest price). But it is too late - with all enormous number of targeted users who already went with Pocket 4k and patiently/proudly wait their subscribed acquisitions to come. Panasonic even ignore better priced offer from Zcam, company that should be considered as hand made one in comparison with Panasonic mass production capacity.

I know that +/- 500 can be seen as too much or as not so significant. But, there surely exists some interesting threshold tolerance in users, when we started to react psychologically, not just as consumers. That's threshold of perceived treatment and global strategy profile or direction of manufacturers. (Maybe worth to note about direction is that Panasonic priced G90 in level of XT3 and Pocket 4k.) That's threshold when we more seriously start to look around weighting offers of others. I simply worry that Panasonic's dedicated team again makes even bigger mistake with this one 4000 for dream camera announcement. Camera that for months will tiе for itself greatest part of developing resources of Panasonic's division.

I agree with most of this but in hindsight, with the release of the X-T3, the GH5 should have cost $1500 at release... $1000/$1250 now. The GH5s should have been $2000 at release... $1500/$1750 now. The S1... $2000. The S1R... $2500. And finally, the S1H... $2999.

I mean as you said, the G90/95 is barely an upgrade from the G80/85 and it cost $400+ more at release... 

Also, the G90/95 should have the high bitrate, all-i 1080p. The S1 doesn’t even have it... Panasonic is doing some strange things. It seems like they’re protecting lower models?!?! I don’t care what anybody says about IBIS and professional environments... the GH5s should have had it!

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I bought the GH5S before the P4K was released. I’ve said many times Panasonic needs to give GH5S a bit of love with firmware updates and perhaps a price drop. Because who would buy it when the P4K has BRAW and internal ProRes?

In my uses, like shooting in rainy conditions, and blowing wind in Iceland and Norway, the P4K would have been toast.

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23 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

I bought the GH5S before the P4K was released. I’ve said many times Panasonic needs to give GH5S a bit of love with firmware updates and perhaps a price drop. Because who would buy it when the P4K has BRAW and internal ProRes?

In my uses, like shooting in rainy conditions, and blowing wind in Iceland and Norway, the P4K would have been toast.

Even more to feel sad, GH5s has so great updating potential (external codec possibility, true 2k, probably with at least 24p RAW), and had so better starting advantage position over Pocket 4k or Zcam, at least half a year monopol in cine m43 market and possibility to redefine price accordingly...

So, to sum up - weighting and rethinking price level could be sign of worry, devotion and truly best wishes for concerned camera... Actually with better friendliness attitude than blindly justify and applaud  to every favorite camera manufacturer's decision (even suicidal one :)...

And now jump to 4000, again without IBIS... I'm afraid those who in theory would buy it for 4000 as B camera, must have budget close to 20000 just for two cameras and base adds, and that's rather category for comfortable renting what-need-to-high-paid-job.

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I think the Panny S1H might end up be the bargain of the year for all it could, and might have when it finally comes out. We could not of dreamed of a camera like this 3 years ago. I think you are underselling this camera by a huge amount. Sure I can't afford it, but if you can this thing is an industry game changer the way I see it.

This camera is going to become the new norm down the road. Panasonic has given us a gift with this announcement. Every company is going to have to pick up the pace big time to match it, let alone beat it. Not counting the CS from the S1 cameras is to die for.

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4 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I think the Panny S1H might end up be the bargain of the year for all it could, and might have when it finally comes out. We could not of dreamed of a camera like this 3 years ago. I think you are underselling this camera by a huge amount. Sure I can't afford it, but if you can this thing is an industry game changer the way I see it.

This camera is going to become the new norm down the road. Panasonic has given us a gift with this announcement. Every company is going to have to pick up the pace big time to match it, let alone beat it. Not counting the CS from the S1 cameras is to die for.

I'm always really glad to hear speculations totally opposite to mine, given from equally well-intentioned angle  :) Actually, we may easy agree that S1H might end up as bargain of the year (but not for 4000)

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This video, I think, Really explains what Panasonic has in mind with the S1H. It is not geared for everyone. This is really a poor mans EVA1 to be honest in a smaller form factor.

This camera, I am sure the new Sony a7s mk III will be also, is just going to be an awesome Cine camera for not a lot of money. Great video cameras are not cheap, at least this month lol.

 

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GH5s is not geared for everyone... including reliable/credible information of century by Mathew Frazer (2:40) : it gets 2 stops more DR in comparison with GH5 approaching 14 stops of latitude, which is high end cinema camera territory...

 

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10 minutes ago, anonim said:

GH5s is not geared for everyone... including reliable information of century by Mathew Frazer (2:40) : it gets 2 stops more DR in comparison with GH5 approaching 14 stops of latitude, which is high end cinema camera territory...

 

I’ve noticed a bit of a bump in DR over the GH5. Especially if you use the HLG profile has a capture profile only.

Panasonic has said that removing the IBIS allows more thermal wiggle room with what they could do. So far, I don’t think they have actually done anything with it. If they became more serious about the GH5S and added things like external ProRes Raw support via HDMI, more interesting internal codec options.

I don’t think it will ever have RAW unless external or something like a magic lantern hack for it.

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