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Andrew Reid

Nikon Z6 features 4K N-LOG, 10bit HDMI output and 120fps 1080p

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48 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

The GH5 also totally destroys the A6500. I believe the A6500 is one of the main reasons there is a general negativity towards Sony. It has odd color (to be generous) and the worst possible rolling shutter.

I think we all know how big sensors are. Size does not necessarily mean more detail, or better image, a lot of that is determined by the processing done afterwards. And sensor size has nothing to do with the amount of data unless you keep pixel pitch the same. I think the GH5's 4:3 open gate mode records more pixels/data than the Z6 in 16:9 UHD, and certainly packs it into a beefier codec.

From what I have seen, the Z6 doesn't have a particularly good image, compared to a GH5 at native ISO. Maybe that's because I've actually worked with Gh5 footage on real projects, whereas I've only downloaded test clips of the Z6. But the GH5 holds up better to grading with high data rates. I haven't tried to work with any externally recorded Z6 footage yet, but, as soon as you require an external recorder attached with a feeble HDMI cable, you've really lost my interest. It's a workaround to the fact that many DSLR-style cameras don't come with the video codecs and tools we need.

That isn't to say the Z6 is bad. I'd rather have a Z6 than a GH5, but it's not because the video image fidelity is better at native ISO. Low light is much better, and full frame means I'd use vintage lenses at their native FOV. But I really think it's a trade off with the current batch of smaller sensor cameras that have more video-oriented features.

No people don't reference sensor size charts when kKen mentions adding that "speedboaster' to the GH5 and saying that will kick ass next to my Nikon for photos. 

Size means detail based on the data collected and the image the Z6 produces.

Here's one video comparing the GH5 to the Z6.  The video quality speaks volumes. You can tell me if the Z6 capture that dude skin tone and details the best. 

 

48 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

From what I have seen, the Z6 doesn't have a particularly good image, compared to a GH5 at native ISO. Maybe that's because I've actually worked with Gh5 footage on real projects, whereas I've only downloaded test clips of the Z6. But the GH5 holds up better to grading with high data rates. 

Your comment has no substance to back it up. The Z6 has better color, detail and full frame sensor readout. The GH5 is compressed badly and has that "digital video look" with mid tone shadows becoming darker then they really are. 

Post some links to your GH5 work. I'm curious what good video quality to you. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

Now the Z6 does 4K video and just like Canon does with the C200 then Z6 is packing as much data into each file and this is one reason Z6 video carries more detail and information. The Canon 1DX II is the same way. So to throw out all the comments like the Z6 is a turkey and last out of all the mirrorless cameras is not being honest. 

 

1

You are spreading around a bunch of misinformation here:

The Z6 records UHD 4K at around 140Mbps in 8-bit 4:2:0.

C200 shoots either 8-bit UHD at 150Mbps or 12-bit RAW DCI 4K at 1Gbps.

1DX2 does 8-bit 4:2:2 DCI 4K at 500Mbps.

EOS R does 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD at up to 400Mbps

GH5 does 10-bit 4:2:2 DCI 4K at 400Mbps.

XT3 does 10-bit 4:2:0 DCI 4K at 400Mbps.

A73 does 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD at 100Mbps. (edited)

Sorry to say but Z6 is indeed at the bottom internal codec wise.

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1 minute ago, Django said:

Sorry but you are spreading around a bunch of misinformation here:

The Z6 records UHD 4K at around 140Mbps in 8-bit 4:2:0.

C200 shoots either 8-bit UHD at 150Mbps or 12-bit RAW DCI 4K at 1Gbps.

1DX2 does 8-bit 4:2:2 DCI 4K at 500Mbps.

EOS R does 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD at up to 400Mbps

GH5 does 10-bit 4:2:2 DCI 4K at 400Mbps.

XT3 does 10-bit 4:2:0 DCI 4K at 400Mbps.

A73 does 8-bit 4:2:0 UHD at 150Mbps.

Sorry to say but Z6 is indeed at the bottom internal codec wise.

I said like those cameras. I never stated bit rates. I said what they do with that 140Mbps. More data in Nikons 140Mbps.  

The GH5 400Mbps is suspect at best and GH5 footage falls apart for what they claim it to be. 

 8 bit Sony footage looks better then the GH5's 10 bit.

The A73 doesn't record at 150 Mbps. 

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17 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You mean this test by the same guy? Looks like the Z6 and S1 look very close to the same to me except the S1 has CRSUHED BLACKS on the guys shirt. Other then that the look the same. And who shoots at 204,800? 

And we are waiting for footage that shows the S1 kills the Z6 in image quality. Are you trolling us?

 

 

Which one is the half assed hybrid? The GH5? It couldn't be that one because still images aren't even Canon Ti3 / K-Mart level. You crack me up with the Panasonic AF100 comment because the Z6 destroys that ancient camcorder. But I know it takes time to forget about those great camcorders and how many we bought back in the day. Lol

No comments on the video? crushed blacks or anything?

Hi again

 

I think you misunderstood me. My point was that the Z6 and S1 are totally different beasts. Not only does the S1 get a far better image at high ISO, but it uses a completely different internal CODEC too (265 vs 264 although you can pick 264 on the S1 too). I just don't think they're comparable and the evidence points to everything but them collaborating.

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42 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Size means detail based on the data collected and the image the Z6 produces.

What do you mean by "data"? Because in terms of digital data collected, the GH5 records more pixels (in open gate mode), and stores it in more bits. So no, the Z6's larger sensor does not record more data.

True, more photons hit the Z6 sensor at equivalent aperture, due to its larger size. That's why the low light is significantly better.

43 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

You can tell me if the Z6 capture that dude skin tone and details the best.

I agree, the Z6 has better color. Like I said, I'd rather have the Z6 for many reasons, color being one of them. All I am saying is that the GH5 holds up much better to an aggressive grade before you showing compression artifacts, not that it looks subjectively "better."

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3 hours ago, Skip77 said:

You can go full M mode in video so the control you guys are complaining about are weak. You can switch to M mode while in video mode, just not while recording. AWB is also your friend.

You do not understand what I wrote. I did not said there isn't M mode in video, I said something else. You are such a fanboy that does not want to understand what people write.

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My 2 cents... Z6 for video could be an excellent camera... used with Atomos Ninja V. N-Log is very very good. Color science is extremely good. We made some LUTs based on Alexa, and Z6 color comes very close. Skin tones, etc. I personally couldn't get this close on any other mirrorless cameras. But there is one huge BUT - they have to fix the HDMI delay which is currently 9 frames (!). Unusable for anything narrative. Looking forward to the firmware update with prores RAW, hopefully they fix the delay. At least Nikon told they are looking into it. I can share the LUTs if anyone's interested.

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1 hour ago, Django said:

Those numbers are facts, not sure how you can argue Nikon is similar or that GH5 is "suspect". Sounds like fanboy talk.

My comment is based on footage test comparing Gh5 footage 10 bit 400Mbps and other cameras such as the C200, A7SIII, etc, that show very little upgrade in quality, if any. More compression and sharpening in the Gh5 footage and people questioning if 400Mbps from the Gh5 is anywhere close to the same as 150Mbps  from the C200. Theories have been that the GH5 400Mbps is highly compressed to begin with, sharpened and noise reduction added and not a clean source as the C200. 

45 minutes ago, liork said:

You do not understand what I wrote. I did not said there isn't M mode in video, I said something else. You are such a fanboy that does not want to understand what people write.

 

19 minutes ago, Zeng said:

My 2 cents... Z6 for video could be an excellent camera... used with Atomos Ninja V. N-Log is very very good. Color science is extremely good. We made some LUTs based on Alexa, and Z6 color comes very close. Skin tones, etc. I personally couldn't get this close on any other mirrorless cameras. But there is one huge BUT - they have to fix the HDMI delay which is currently 9 frames (!). Unusable for anything narrative. Looking forward to the firmware update with prores RAW, hopefully they fix the delay. At least Nikon told they are looking into it. I can share the LUTs if anyone's interested.

9 seconds going to the Atomos ninja? Damn Nikon. 

19 minutes ago, Zeng said:

My 2 cents... Z6 for video could be an excellent camera... used with Atomos Ninja V. N-Log is very very good. Color science is extremely good. We made some LUTs based on Alexa, and Z6 color comes very close. Skin tones, etc. I personally couldn't get this close on any other mirrorless cameras. But there is one huge BUT - they have to fix the HDMI delay which is currently 9 frames (!). Unusable for anything narrative. Looking forward to the firmware update with prores RAW, hopefully they fix the delay. At least Nikon told they are looking into it. I can share the LUTs if anyone's interested.

Please share the LUT's - I am definitely interested.

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4 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

My comment is based on footage test comparing Gh5 footage 10 bit 400Mbps and other cameras such as the C200, A7SIII, etc, that show very little upgrade in quality, if any. More compression and sharpening in the Gh5 footage and people questioning if 400Mbps from the Gh5 is anywhere close to the same as 150Mbps  from the C200. Theories have been that the GH5 400Mbps is highly compressed to begin with, sharpened and noise reduction added and not a clean source as the C200. 

 

Is the GH5S any better? 

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7 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Is the GH5S any better? 

20 minutes ago, Zeng said:

My 2 cents... Z6 for video could be an excellent camera... used with Atomos Ninja V. N-Log is very very good. Color science is extremely good. We made some LUTs based on Alexa, and Z6 color comes very close. Skin tones, etc. I personally couldn't get this close on any other mirrorless cameras. But there is one huge BUT - they have to fix the HDMI delay which is currently 9 frames (!). Unusable for anything narrative. Looking forward to the firmware update with prores RAW, hopefully they fix the delay. At least Nikon told they are looking into it. I can share the LUTs if anyone's interested.

Can you share the LUT's for the Z6 based on Alexa?

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It's 9 frames, not 9 seconds :). But still too much. Here are a few LUTs with subtly varying curves. We are dealing with 12.3 stops of DR vs 14-15 on Alexa. So alexa rec709 contrast curve is too contrasty for Nikon, of course. Although one of the LUTs is almost same curve. Also Alexa's response in low mids is pretty unique as well. To get a similar response on Z6 you have to rate it at ISO400 (lowest on Z6 is ISO800, just overexpose a stop). But then you loose a stop in the highlights of course, which if exposed correctly come to 6 stops over middle grey on Z6 (versus 7.5 or so on Alexa). Had to tweak the neutrals though, which means they have a bit of a color cast and saturation to them. The work is still in progress. I'll be doing Alexa look library based creative looks as well. 

Z6_alexa_based_LUTS.zip

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1 hour ago, Skip77 said:

More compression and sharpening in the Gh5 footage and people questioning if 400Mbps from the Gh5 is anywhere close to the same as 150Mbps  from the C200.

That makes sense, because Long GOP 100 Mbps should be better quality than All-I 400 Mbps for a static shot. For example, something like a medium shot of an interview subject has like 75% of the frame is completely static, and will be encoded once per group of pictures, instead once every frame for All-I. That's significantly more of the bitrate that can be allocated to the 25% of the frame that is moving.

There are very few circumstances in which I would choose to record All-I.

I don't see 140 Mbps in The Z6 as a downside.. Even 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0 makes no visual difference, though it's better for chroma keying. The real advantage of the GH5 is 10 bit. 8 bit falls apart almost immediately, particularly when used with log curves. But despite it's codec fidelity, GH5 footage is not fun to work with so I'd take a Z6 myself. I do wish Nikon had included a 10 bit HEVC codec though.

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2 hours ago, Zeng said:

It's 9 frames, not 9 seconds :). But still too much. Here are a few LUTs with subtly varying curves. We are dealing with 12.3 stops of DR vs 14-15 on Alexa. So alexa rec709 contrast curve is too contrasty for Nikon, of course. Although one of the LUTs is almost same curve. Also Alexa's response in low mids is pretty unique as well. To get a similar response on Z6 you have to rate it at ISO400 (lowest on Z6 is ISO800, just overexpose a stop). But then you loose a stop in the highlights of course, which if exposed correctly come to 6 stops over middle grey on Z6 (versus 7.5 or so on Alexa). Had to tweak the neutrals though, which means they have a bit of a color cast and saturation to them. The work is still in progress. I'll be doing Alexa look library based creative looks as well. 

Z6_alexa_based_LUTS.zip 2.29 MB · 3 downloads

Thanks! What settings did you use or recommend on the Z6?

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I didn't quite realize how small Prores RAW files can be. I think being able to do 12bit 4k on a full frame camera is really amazing. 

Just realized the Prores RAW also works with the old FS5, which are going for like $2000ish on ebay. Those can do up to 4k 120 in Prores RAW😮

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The Z6 I've got on order at work should be here this week. I'll be happy to report back what I notice between it and the GH5 I use for videos. 

The Z6 will be my new primary hybrid shooter, I expect the GH5 to be my preferred video shooter. I'm really curious to see how the Z6 grades against the GH5, I've had few issues taking care of mixed lighting issues with the GH5's 8 bit. Anything that is too much of an issue usually results in the dust being wiped off the 5D and bringing in some ML RAW.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Skip77 said:

I'm not talking about rolling shutter but sensor readout and how the GH5 process that data or how poorly it does that. What's the deal with panning stutter on the GH5? Low light is also terrible on the GH5 so much so that Panasonic had to introduce the Gh5s. That says it all about the GH5.

Huh? What "panning stutter"? Probably operator error. 

And what is with everyone's need to shoot at a billion ISO? Try shooting with a RED or ARRI....   then you'll realize MFT can perform just fine in lowlight relatively speaking!

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7 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I didn't quite realize how small Prores RAW files can be. I think being able to do 12bit 4k on a full frame camera is really amazing. 

Just realized the Prores RAW also works with the old FS5, which are going for like $2000ish on ebay. Those can do up to 4k 120 in Prores RAW😮


The Sony FS700 is becoming dirt cheap, very tempting, it is the biggest factor stopping me buying another Sony PMW-F3! Because a FS700 is only a little more. 

But the biggest factor stopping me buying a FS700? (aside from my realization that I don't *need* one, I just "want" it)

That the FS5 has been becoming so cheap lately! If it just drops a little bit lower.... 

As ergonomically the FS5 is a big big leap forward over the FS700, and its internal codec is much better as well. 

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