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Nikon FF Mirrorless

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8 hours ago, Django said:

The proof is in the pudding. Sony claims 14 stops on A73 and that's an 8-bit codec .

And it Has SLog 2, SLog 3 in camera. So It might do 13 in SLog 3, less in SLog 2. I don't doubt the Nikon will do 12 1/2  external. But without N Log it is not going to do 13 stops or more internal just like the D750 can't either. The flat profile in the D750 was no where near as exotic as Sony SLog 3. They all exaggerate their numbers. But Blackmagic is claiming 12 1/2 stops on the PK4 and I can actually believe that will be true.

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49 minutes ago, kye said:

A quite critical review from Tony & Chelsea - based on the pre-production model.

 

It is an interesting review and they usually do a good job (although some of their experience seems to contradict DPR who usually do a good job too.)

There is one thing, however, that I think they got 'very wrong'. At the beginning of the video they say that Nikon marketed the camera as a 'mirrorless D850'. I dont think they did (well apart from the price.)

I think Nikon very deliberately marketed the camera a 'step below' the D850 pro camera. Why do I say that? Well look at these very deliberate choices that Nikon made...

1 card slot (not really pro)

Small battery (not really pro)

Choice of lenses to be released with the body

24-70 f4

50 1.8

35 1.8

...again not really pro....

And I suspect that Nikon knew that with the first iteration of their mirrorless, the performance of DSLR lenses with an adapter would be good but not great, af particularly lowlight c-af would be good but not great and that their ibis would be good but not great.

And look virtually noone needs 2 card slots. If you are a professional wedding photographer who needs redundancy, you probably should not be shooting a wedding with a camera with 3 native lenses. And a small battery? Batteries take less than 10 seconds to change out.

Nikon certainly exceeded my expectations (especially with the Z6) less so with the lenses and by quite a wide margin. But if you start with unrealistic expectations it isnt really surprising if you end up feeling disappointed.

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Don't mistake fast for being pro.       I think these may well be quite good lenses that would be very much at home for pro use just maybe not enough of them yet.

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12 minutes ago, noone said:

Don't mistake fast for being pro.       I think these may well be quite good lenses that would be very much at home for pro use just maybe not enough of them yet.

I am really talking about how these cameras are being marketed - the whole 'pro' thing is marketing bullshit for the most part anyways. I absolutely love the 55 1.8 Sony lens and the size is much more appropriate for mirrorless (and with modern sensors you dont need the extra speed.) The 50 1.4 is the pro lens though. I could go on...

These lenses are called the S Line. The pro dslr line is called the 'G' line (for gold) presumably the 'S' is for silver...

The Nikon ambassadors they wheeled out didnt exactly look like their heavyweights - both young, one 'female' travel photog (ideal for mirrorless), one young male (timelapse/hyperlapse specialist) ideal to point out A7x3 dont even offer timelapse in camera....

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1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

It is an interesting review and they usually do a good job (although some of their experience seems to contradict DPR who usually do a good job too.)

There is one thing, however, that I think they got 'very wrong'. At the beginning of the video they say that Nikon marketed the camera as a 'mirrorless D850'. I dont think they did (well apart from the price.)

I think Nikon very deliberately marketed the camera a 'step below' the D850 pro camera. Why do I say that? Well look at these very deliberate choices that Nikon made...

1 card slot (not really pro)

Small battery (not really pro)

Choice of lenses to be released with the body

24-70 f4

50 1.8

35 1.8

...again not really pro....

And I suspect that Nikon knew that with the first iteration of their mirrorless, the performance of DSLR lenses with an adapter would be good but not great, af particularly lowlight c-af would be good but not great and that their ibis would be good but not great.

And look virtually noone needs 2 card slots. If you are a professional wedding photographer who needs redundancy, you probably should not be shooting a wedding with a camera with 3 native lenses. And a small battery? Batteries take less than 10 seconds to change out.

Nikon certainly exceeded my expectations (especially with the Z6) less so with the lenses and by quite a wide margin. But if you start with unrealistic expectations it isnt really surprising if you end up feeling disappointed.

Well it was honest you have to admit that. Imagine my surprise it has warts. But they put everything but the kitchen sink to top Sony, and If they get the kinks out it is a top contender. Now as a Video monster I guess we will have to see, but it is lacking in mbs, and that may be a not so good decision down the road. But for a first effort like I said, they did what they Had to do, and try to top Sony. Some places they have, and on the Pro front I think they have failed. But a heck of a lot more average people buy cameras than Pros, so they probably took the safe way out at the start. I think they made the right choice for now. They probably will have a Z8 out down the road to compete with the A9 and make the Pros happy.

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For all the hype, and time it took them to R&D their first full frame mirrorless line, having just those 3 lenses, not even 1 Noct lens (even though they advertised that a lot) and not one "compact"/"pancake"/ultra compact lens is a bit of a disappointment.

They clearly state that currently won't let other manufacturers build Z lenses.

The Achilles heel of Sony, became Nikon's biggest weakness!

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2 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

For all the hype, and time it took them to R&D their first full frame mirrorless line, having just those 3 lenses, not even 1 Noct one (even though they advertised that a lot) and not one "compact"/"pancake"/ultra compact lens is a bit of a disappointment.

They clearly state that currently won't let other manufacturers build Z lenses.

The Achilles heel of Sony, became Nikon's biggest weakness!

I think the Z7 is too expensive too boot. Ehh, completely new lenses is no small task. But man one of them is seriously expensive.

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24 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

They clearly state that currently won't let other manufacturers build Z lenses.

The Achilles heel of Sony, became Nikon's biggest weakness!

Is that so? Could you provide a link please? What about the two dozen third party Z mount lenses that were supposed to be released within months of launch? So disappointing!

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41 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

I am really talking about how these cameras are being marketed - the whole 'pro' thing is marketing bullshit for the most part anyways. I absolutely love the 55 1.8 Sony lens and the size is much more appropriate for mirrorless (and with modern sensors you dont need the extra speed.) The 50 1.4 is the pro lens though. I could go on...

These lenses are called the S Line. The pro dslr line is called the 'G' line (for gold) presumably the 'S' is for silver...

The Nikon ambassadors they wheeled out didnt exactly look like their heavyweights - both young, one 'female' travel photog (ideal for mirrorless), one young male (timelapse/hyperlapse specialist) ideal to point out A7x3 dont even offer timelapse in camera....

Actually while the 50 1.4 is A pro lens, so is the 55 1.8.

For Sony pro support you need three lenses that have either a Zeiss, G or G master badge (among other requirements).

I would think that all (or most) of the S line lenses will qualify for Nikon pro support though that remains to be seen.

EDIT, I also think it is a bit snobbish using the lenses badge as being pro or not as I think many pros are using the FE 85 1.8 for instance as it is so good and many actually prefer it to the Zeiss Batis 85 1.8.

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3 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I think Nikon very deliberately marketed the camera a 'step below' the D850 pro camera. Why do I say that? Well look at these very deliberate choices that Nikon made...

1 card slot (not really pro)

Small battery (not really pro)

Choice of lenses to be released with the body

24-70 f4

50 1.8

35 1.8

...again not really pro....

 

 

..yet technically speaking:

Faster processor (Expeed 6)

Faster card support (soon CFexpress compatible)

Bigger battery (EN-EL 15B)

More AF points (493 vs 153)

Bigger AF coverage & Hybrid PDAF

Bigger mount

Better video specs

IBIS

..as for the lenses they are being marketed as optically superior to their G counterparts and optimized for video.. (but of course only 3 available atm)

all that being said Nikon are pretty clever and have deliberately left open space for Z8/Z9 and have been careful enough to not cannibalize it's DSLR counterparts by leaving out second card slots and slower legacy lens performance etc..

i'm still GASing hard for a Z6, but in no way do these 2 models make a D850/D5 obsolete, for photography. These aren't killing the DSLR just yet.

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38 minutes ago, noone said:

Actually while the 50 1.4 is A pro lens, so is the 55 1.8.

For Sony pro support you need three lenses that have either a Zeiss, G or G master badge (among other requirements).

I would think that all (or most) of the S line lenses will qualify for Nikon pro support though that remains to be seen.

EDIT, I also think it is a bit snobbish using the lenses badge as being pro or not as I think many pros are using the FE 85 1.8 for instance as it is so good and many actually prefer it to the Zeiss Batis 85 1.8.

I agree with you. 

My feeling is that Nikon has very deliberately placed 'high end' mirrorless 'below' 'pro dslr' partly as a dig at Sony. Sort of along the lines that these 'mirrorless' are great travel companions and great gadgets with tons to tech but at the end of the day 'REAL pros use pro DSLRs which are the best tools for the job.'

Sort of along the lines that when Tony says 'I couldnt recommend this camera (with one card slot) for pro wedding  shooters' Nikon would reply 'neither would we'

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13 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Sadly the company also says that it won't be sharing the technical details of the mount, preferring to protect sales of its own lenses at the expense of creating of a more inviting, wider ecosystem. So, unlike Micro Four Thirds and Sony E-Mount, third-party makers will have to reverse-engineer the Z mount. - DPReview

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10 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Sadly the company also says that it won't be sharing the technical details of the mount, preferring to protect sales of its own lenses at the expense of creating of a more inviting, wider ecosystem. So, unlike Micro Four Thirds and Sony E-Mount, third-party makers will have to reverse-engineer the Z mount. - DPReview

Yeah those moves are probably good for Nikon in the long run, but not so good for the buyers of Z cameras in the short run. ?

Some tough decisions for the first people to buy them. They seem to be a dream come true in some areas, and a wow this is not so hot on other points. I am sure some can be corrected by firmware, but the oh boy ones are going to have to be on the Next versions, and with Nikon's track record on rolling out new stuff, well that could be an Oh Boy moment. I guess a lot of it boils down to how big is your wallet. Do I risk it or not.

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With Nikon, it is difficult to 2nd guess their intentions for this camera and lenses to be considered for professional use, just as it is for its existing products.

In theory, you might inagine that if they consider it a professional camera then it will appear on the qualifying list for NPS.

https://www.nikonpro.com/ProductList.aspx

It doesn't yet of course but when it's actually available I have no doubt it will do as when you take a look at the cameras and lenses (especially the DX ones) that are on the list you will find many which you would at best consider prosumer ones. 

There are plenty of single card slot cameras on that list too by the way.

Admittedly because they use a points system you would need a fair amount of the lower end stuff to reach the 750 point threshold to qualify for membership but Nikon do acknowledge in this way that you don't have to have their most expensive equipment to be a professional photographer and receive the same benefits as those that do.

Which is good for the user (as professional photography is a broad church where not everyone needs the features or build of the higher priced equipment) but bad for trying to win internet arguments.

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4 hours ago, jonpais said:

Sadly the company also says that it won't be sharing the technical details of the mount, preferring to protect sales of its own lenses at the expense of creating of a more inviting, wider ecosystem. So, unlike Micro Four Thirds and Sony E-Mount, third-party makers will have to reverse-engineer the Z mount. - DPReview

This is sad, but not really a surprise to me.  It's common practice for market leaders to make 'closed' systems to prevent their customers from escaping, and for market challengers to make 'open' systems as they have far less to lose and an open system is better for consumers.  This is a big advantage of m43 for example, but at that point Panasonic and Olympus didn't have a huge customer base to protect.

I think these new cameras are interesting, but there are many pros and cons in comparison to the other offerings.  I'm not going to be able to make a decision until we start seeing full reviews of production models (not pre-production) and the reviewers have had a chance to discover their strengths and weaknesses.  I've watched enough tests by cinematographers who film scenes at varying levels of exposure (-2, -1, 0, 1, 2 etc) and across various profiles and gamma curves to know that it'll be a while before anyone will be able to show what these cameras are really capable of.

The full weather sealing is certainly an attractive feature if you're spending so much money on a camera system! :)

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