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Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

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2 hours ago, kye said:

LOL..  I guess you know better than all the people who actually do this for a living.  I look forward to you releasing your prefect camera!!

If you read my original question, I said I understand devices like these can have bugs that need to be ironed out. What I don't understand is how a camera can be released with major imaging problems that show up under normal shooting conditions. It essentially fails at its main task. 

Would you accept a TV that did the same thing? I can't see a TV that displayed the same kind of imaging problems as BMD's cameras being allowed to market. 

You may be happy to pay for the priveledge of being a guinea pig but tests like and fixes should be done prior to release. Who wants a camera you can't use for a few months? 

5 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Here's a Black Sun from an Alexa shoot of mine, and a nice OLPF flare from a DXL / RED Monstro on the latest Mission Impossible trailer.

JB

Alexa Black Sun.jpg

Red OLPF.jpg

Hi John, yeah I had similar issues with OLPF flare with the Epic. I get the point, Alexa black sun looks tiny in comparison to BMD's original problem but anyway..... all I wanted to know is if the cameras go through more vigorous testing than the gen 1 cameras BMD produced. 

I understand you can't comment.... 

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24 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Would you accept a TV that did the same thing? I can't see a TV that displayed the same kind of imaging problems as BMD's cameras being allowed to market. 

It happens. In the very early days of flatscreen HD TVs, I bought a very expensive Sony Bravia with 'Reality Engine' blah blah. I couldn't believe my eyes when I  first watched a closeup of a face on it. As the person talked, the eyes, nose and mouth would move slightly out of synch with each other. I went through all the settings but couldn't get rid of the slightly trippy effect. Needless to say I didn't have the TV for long and went back to having a CRT tv until the flatscreen tech was good enough. I decided then that being an early adopter was not necessarily a good idea. 

I have pre-ordered the BMPCC4K though 🙂

2 hours ago, kaylee said:

im shooting my next film on potato

If it overheats, you can always eat it. 

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I would guess only a little, but Blackmagic probably figured out how to streamline testing as they know how to make cameras by now.

I think whatever Blackmagic does to deliver their cameras at a low cost is fine by me because they at least seem to be very open about replacing defective cameras with a new one. 

And it's the same with computer hardware. If you look on newegg or similar sites all you see are bad reviews because no one who recieves hardware in good condition actually leaves a review.  If it works as expected, everyone knows from benchmarks and specs how a particular piece of computer hardware performs.  Likewise, no one is out making threads about how good their camera works, or how it arrived with no defects.

Blackmagic seems no worse than other brands it's just due to the amateur pricing of their products, you get a lot of idiots who don't know how to use the cameras properly and claim defects because they don't know how to expose.  There was a guy who compared a bunch of different cameras including Alexa Mini and a few others and he declared the 4.6K "unusable" due to magenta all over the images and the manufacturer Rec 709 lut looking bad.  Maybe if he had used the same kind of ND that is internal with the Alexa Mini and learned how to grade he wouldn't be saying these ridiculous things.

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19 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Blackmagic seems no worse than other brands it's just due to the amateur pricing of their products, you get a lot of idiots who don't know how to use the cameras properly and claim defects because they don't know how to expose.

Oh yes, a tonne of the negative complaints about low end equipment is just due to low end folks who don't know their right from their left. 
(then there is a minority who high end snobs who are willfully spreading FUD, I'm seeing a fair amount of that with the Zoom F series...)

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1 hour ago, Tone1k said:

If you read my original question, I said I understand devices like these can have bugs that need to be ironed out. What I don't understand is how a camera can be released with major imaging problems that show up under normal shooting conditions. It essentially fails at its main task. 

OK, let me have another go.

A camera can be released with what you determine to be major imaging problems because.......  it wasn't you making the decision, and they care about different things than you do.

I'd suggest that you're very lucky to not understand.  It's not uncommon for decisions in large corporations to be made straight after the boss says something like "either the product is going to be out on the street tomorrow morning or you are!"

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1 hour ago, Tone1k said:

If you read my original question, I said I understand devices like these can have bugs that need to be ironed out. What I don't understand is how a camera can be released with major imaging problems that show up under normal shooting conditions. It essentially fails at its main task. 

"Normal shooting conditions" to you, but not to them. 

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20 minutes ago, kye said:

OK, let me have another go.

A camera can be released with what you determine to be major imaging problems because.......  it wasn't you making the decision, and they care about different things than you do.

I'd suggest that you're very lucky to not understand.  It's not uncommon for decisions in large corporations to be made straight after the boss says something like "either the product is going to be out on the street tomorrow morning or you are!"

"Lucky to not understand"... Patronising much? I'm in Melbourne, a friend of mine is a product manager at BMD though not the camera department and I've had conversations about this with him, though not directly relating to BMD. I understand perfectly.

This is all beside the point though. The issues that plagued 1st gen cameras were given as an example and way to ask a question: with the P4K, is product testing more stringent now or should we expect to see issues like those found in the BMD first gen cameras or even the Ursa Mini 4k considering the sensor is new to BMD. 

That's it. 

1 hour ago, Kieran said:

It happens. In the very early days of flatscreen HD TVs, I bought a very expensive Sony Bravia with 'Reality Engine' blah blah. I couldn't believe my eyes when I  first watched a closeup of a face on it. As the person talked, the eyes, nose and mouth would move slightly out of synch with each other. I went through all the settings but couldn't get rid of the slightly trippy effect. Needless to say I didn't have the TV for long and went back to having a CRT tv until the flatscreen tech was good enough. I decided then that being an early adopter was not necessarily a good idea. 

I have pre-ordered the BMPCC4K though 🙂

If it overheats, you can always eat it. 

Yes, first gen TV's. That's why I'm asking the question. BMDs cameras are not first gen now but this sensor is a first gen sensor for them hence the question..... Is it really that unreasonable a question? 

5 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

"Normal shooting conditions" to you, but not to them. 

Having a hot light source in the frame is completely normal. As is shooting any indoor scene without the FPN and flicker that plagued Ursa Mini 4k. I used three copies and they were all un usable with the same issues unless shooting in bright sunlight. 

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@Tone 1K

Yes, although we all love and had BM camera(s) - why it is so dangerous to remind about their obvious technical and marketing hurries and mistakes in past?... at least between these hundred of BM post about difference Hasselblad vs Kinefinity vs Ursa's or about fond personal memories of youth or glory of professional achievements :)  of obvious BM ambassadors with tight connections and modest task... Some 129 post ago I've noted that Grant Petty has, without doubt, even now enough reasons to feel himself as The man with mission to democratize art of movie making - and, consequentialy, that new BMP camera has to be seen in that light: he, before all other, would not risk his reputation with any sort of fiasco.

But... also, he looks sometimes to me also as an charmingly young in the soul, full of some stage fright about his ideals and premature creative hurry to announce them to the world... Actually, for me it is quite interesting to think how much BM products are, in a some important way, exact reflection of type/character of main creative mind behind them.

(Personally, I'm above all and forever fascinated with that marvel he/his crew did and do with Davinci Resolve... Eventually, Resolve will switch off not just Premiere, but also and Flame, than, as it seems, even Merkalli and Neat Video :)

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1 hour ago, Tone1k said:

"Lucky to not understand"... Patronising much? I'm in Melbourne, a friend of mine is a product manager at BMD though not the camera department and I've had conversations about this with him, though not directly relating to BMD. I understand perfectly.

Now it's my turn to not understand.  If you know all of that, then why did you ask this?

On 7/8/2018 at 11:34 AM, Tone1k said:

While you say that BM have asked most of the questions asked here already in the devolopment stages, I'm a little more interested in the product testing stages pre release.

And then why did you criticise when my answer was clearly stated as being generic about testing.

It sounds like you're the one with the contacts etc, and we should be asking you!

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4 hours ago, Tone1k said:

"Lucky to not understand"... Patronising much? I'm in Melbourne, a friend of mine is a product manager at BMD though not the camera department and I've had conversations about this with him, though not directly relating to BMD. I understand perfectly.

This is all beside the point though. The issues that plagued 1st gen cameras were given as an example and way to ask a question: with the P4K, is product testing more stringent now or should we expect to see issues like those found in the BMD first gen cameras or even the Ursa Mini 4k considering the sensor is new to BMD. 

That's it. 

Yes, first gen TV's. That's why I'm asking the question. BMDs cameras are not first gen now but this sensor is a first gen sensor for them hence the question..... Is it really that unreasonable a question? 

Having a hot light source in the frame is completely normal. As is shooting any indoor scene without the FPN and flicker that plagued Ursa Mini 4k. I used three copies and they were all un usable with the same issues unless shooting in bright sunlight. 

I think this was exactly the kind of users I was referring to in my earlier post.  There are different sensor designs, and each design has drawbacks and positives.  The Ursa Mini 4K was the CMOSIS CMV12000 and that sensor sucked.  This pocket 4K uses a back illuminated Starvis design so I doubt it will have issues with FPN like other Blackmagic sensors do.  And as far as "unusable" in anything but bright sunlight.  Are you sure you weren't just underexposing your images?

First gen blackmagic cameras had a bit more aliasing/moire then previous cameras and they did have slightly more fpn than newer models, but they didn't have huge issues.  And likewise, the 4.6K sensor as a whole is very good and doesn't have many issues either.

Testing is mostly  useful to calibrate and spot bad sensors, as not every sensor is perfectly made, and I assume you can streamline the process once you get better at making cameras.  The "issues" you claim plauged first generation Blackmagic cameras have nothing to do with testing but rather their choice of sensor, which you seem to not like.

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As awesome as BM is as a company, there is no reason to speak badly of tone1k for asking an honest and reasonable question. It also doesn’t serve any new customers that are elated by the announcement of the P4K.

I believe every single BM cinema camera has had an issue or two when first released. Most people understand that a small company does not have the resources that the major players have but to ignore that the issues existed makes you sound like a shill.

Sure previous cameras were made from off the shelf parts and everybody understands that it takes some trial and error through design and manufacturing to get everything right but moire was a problem because the camera lacks an OLPF and had nothing to do with the sensor specifically.

Hell even the Micro had some issues with FPN and BM was using that sensor for years before the Micro was released. And I don’t know what you read but I followed the Ursa 4.6k magenta issue and there is no reason to say that it was user error.

So yes, sometimes products do get released with issues that require a repair or a new unit but this is a regular thing with BM.

Personally, I believe there will be some issues with the P4K as well, but at that price point, who cares? BM does have a track record of releasing cameras late and with issues, but they also have a track record of making the customer happy.

But due to the price point, there is going to be a lot of new adopters to the BM ecosystem and hopefully BM either gets it right or these new customers understand what they’re getting for the money and show some patience. Or maybe since they’re using that sensor, this will be a more generic release from BM but God I hope that sensor isn’t a signal that it’s a generic camera.

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9 hours ago, Tone1k said:

Hi John, yeah I had similar issues with OLPF flare with the Epic. I get the point, Alexa black sun looks tiny in comparison to BMD's original problem but anyway..... all I wanted to know is if the cameras go through more vigorous testing than the gen 1 cameras BMD produced. 

I understand you can't comment.... 

I can’t comment about the testing process.  But as alluded to here, testing and finding errors doens’t mean they will get fixed before shipping.  No camera is perfect and THAT was my point.

Today, I can make an Alexa show a black sun without too much difficulty and I can make a DXL or current top of the line RED have a strange OLPF flare in similar shooting circumstances.  

I’d classify these as major imaging problems in the way you were characterising issues to do with BMD, and I was only showing you that those cameras got knowingly shipped with similar issues that HAD to have been known about.  

Those that test and find faults aren’t the ones in charge of the building, fixing or shipping or repairing.  It’s not their call on if something is a show stopper or not.  There’s an assumption that faults were somehow missed, that there’s a problem with the voracity of the testing regime and yet, if you’re not allowed to talk about the testing process and what you find...

No camera is perfect.

The question becomes...Is it good enough...can you get away with it.  That’s what every manufacturer has to ask themselves because they ALL have imaging faults.

JB

 

 

 

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Come on, sorry to say... but this starting to seem ridiculous (at least to me) - so ALL are the same because one user dared to remind that ALL are not quite the same. There is Sony with overheating camera after 15 min, there is BM with stupid sun hole in camera marketed as cinema tool in which image solely is meant to be quality  above others. There was magenta cast in Ursa for which repairing users begs more than a half year - again about pure image that it has to shine. BM screwed - not quite without hurt - many users after buying version before last UMP 4.6 without noticing that they started to made internal upgrade while still marketed model that they very fast stoped to provide with update... These are base things and quality - but no, now we have to put in the same basket even Alexa or Red trying to find some marginal and really occasional flaws.

No, companies are not ALL the same - and BM in camera market is far away of desired behavior. (I find that even that 7 month long term of announce is something new and incorrect in sense of opening race for more and more earlier promising for everybody else - but that is more my personal dislike.)

"Testing and finding errors doesn’t mean they will get fixed before shipping" - it is really some innovative phrase to say, simply, unprofessional... to say it mild.

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26 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well Panasonic announced the GH5 7 months before release... so...

Wikipedia: The Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5 is a Micro Four Thirds mirrorless interchangeable lens camera body announced by Panasonic on 4 January 2017.

Dpreviwed: Apr 11, 2017 https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/slrs/panasonic_dcgh5

Nothing to mention that preordering was become actual always after first shots are widely available. But I think you know it all very well.

Several months after announcing and receiving preorder, and after mr Petty proudly  said that as of today he is happy that camera may go on the street shooting out of laboratory, all we have from obviously qualified ambassador in 150 pages massaging long thread is spectacular illumination - "Testing and finding errors doesn’t mean they will get fixed before shipping".

Please don't get me wrong - I'm just reacting when it seems to me that is threatened common human sense and expected behavior similar for everybody at one place where I'm participating...

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32 minutes ago, anonim said:

Wikipedia: The Panasonic Lumix DC-GH5 is a Micro Four Thirds mirrorless interchangeable lens camera body announced by Panasonic on 4 January 2017.

Dpreviwed: Apr 11, 2017 https://www.dpreview.com/products/panasonic/slrs/panasonic_dcgh5

Nothing to mention that preordering was become actual always after first shots are widely available. But I think you know it all very well.

Several months after announcing and receiving preorder, and after mr Petty proudly  said that as of today he is happy that camera may go on the street shooting out of laboratory, all we have from obviously qualified ambassador in 150 pages massaging long thread is spectacular illumination - "Testing and finding errors doesn’t mean they will get fixed before shipping".

Please don't get me wrong - I'm just reacting when it seems to me that is threatened common human sense and expected behavior similar for everybody at one place where I'm participating...

Well quit crying and don't buy a Blackmagic product. How hard is that. Like JB caused all your problems. WTF.

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Also did you watch some of those CookeTV videos with Geoff Boyle?  About 6 months ago they posted a video where Geoff talks about using a certain companies camera that lacks an OLPF and testing it for a few months.  He doesn't mention said company by name but we all know who it is.  He says if he shoots certain patterns he can produce moire, just like with the herrinbone suit that was seen during the HBO camera test.

 

BUT after all of that he says it doesn't matter when you actually get the camera and shoot REAL jobs.  Sure you can take a Blackmagic camera, underexpose it 2 stops and find more FPN than a certain competitors camera, and yes, you can maybe find moire if you shoot certain patterns, but in the small chance that it does happen, i can easily be fixed by moving the camera a little bit.

 

The magenta issue was one of the only problems that was very "real" and I would define as a serious issue, but they fixed that almost completely with firmware updates.

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Well mr, quit paying attention to mine (and someone else in this thread) obstruction of any chance to keep your memories alive at any single occasion with and without theme. Jump it and keep conversation of everything you wish inside of extremely free thread.

You see: mr JB keep going with his need in this thread common to all of us, you with your - and I'll be with mine. And  I'll be happy anytime when I hear/learn anything new about topic of concern.

Telling to someone that is crying when commenting/discussing is btw simply part of idea of charm and importance of some sort of men.

33 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

The magenta issue was one of the only problems that was very "real" and I would define as a serious issue, but they fixed that almost completely with firmware updates.

BM never fixed promised global shutter for BMMCC as a crucial advantage for many preordering users and one of the two of their own crucial marketing point... Magenta issue is fixed when new cameras without it came into the market...

And for TG sake... again... we all love and use/used BM camera, but that uncritical ode without permission to ask anything that is not for glory of BM is absurd of too obvious efforts of any sort of engaged persons.

Remember, I am my majesty customer and at the end and at the long rate honest and founded questions and critics always do the best for the asked subjects :)

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