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IronFilm

DPReview BANS links to EOSHD!!

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9 hours ago, kye said:

Cinematography Database YT channel spots them in BTS pics every so often, and Filmmaker IQ owns one and they're much closer to the high budget film world than most of the YT camera channels, so that's what I am basing my judgements on.

Well the guy who runs Cinematographer DB seems to have mostly given up on the set world and instead is fully focused on his CineTracer software, thus not sure how relevant that is to the discussion?
Ditto FilmmakerIQ, which is a FANTASTIC channel! But again, I never at all got the impression he currently works a lot in the camera crew on high budget films, but rather he is an educator. 

9 hours ago, kye said:

I think you're right that it does have a place, my point is that that place isn't very visible from the part of the filmmaking landscape most of us occupy, and just it's hard to know how much commercial content is shot with a GH5, it's hard to know how much commercial content is shot with an XC10 because it's good enough to blend in to stuff shot on other Canon cameras.

Tonnes and tonnes of low mid ish budget commercial stuff gets shot with a GH5, as B/C Cam or even A Cam. While the XC10 is comparatively very rare. Or at least that is my experience here in this country of New Zealand. 

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

It's cool if you liked it but... It had a 1 inch sensor with a f/2.8-5.6 lens for $2500. Saying it was the worst camera of the year might've been overstating it, but given the options that were available at the time for substantially less? Yeah, it was a bit of a dud unless you're a hardcore Canon shooter. 

 Only after the incompetence Canon has shown these past couple of years have people warmed up to it. But people had higher expectations and the XC10 fell well beneath most of them.


Canon didn't slash the price of the XC10 because it was selling like hotcakes! (today's price is nearing on half of what its launch price, I bet if Canon had launched it at that price instead then people's opinions of it would have been massively more favorable and we'd have seen many many more XC10 cameras in use)

Canon's actions basically proved the XC10 wasn't initially popular and they got it wrong in designing the XC10 camera. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
20 hours ago, kye said:

I used to, but then they gave the XC10 worst camera of the year, and I realised they don't actually know anything about video at all.  I think they suffer from the common problem that many YouTuber types suffer from, which is knowing everything about video except how it's made by the real pros.

There are kind of three 'professional' worlds for video:

  • the one where YouTubers make a living with a DSLR, a laptop, clickbait social algorithm optimisation techniques and brand deals to review DSLRs and laptops
  • the one where people film weddings, corporate gigs, and other types of videos for people that pay them
  • the one where people make almost all the content for TV and cinema

YT is saturated with the first one, and the level of knowledge between those who only understand the first and those who understand the second is absolutely huge.  There are almost no YT people who understand the third (FilmmakerIQ is a notable exception to this).  Every now and then something comes along that is tailored to the third group but is in the budget of the first couple and they don't know WTF it's for or anything.  Chris and Jordan failed that test spectacularly.

Since they earn a living doing it, they are pros by definition. You not liking their opinion does not make it otherwise.

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19 hours ago, IronFilm said:

To be fair it is a bit of an odd ugly duckling, which doesn't seem to neatly fit into any one category. (while say a Sony X70 was cheaper, a more traditional form factor with a more clearly defined role in a production. And many many potential buyers of a XC10 could also be happily content with a FZ100/RX10 which is massively massively cheaper, the XC10 was simply in a tough spot in the market with no crystal clear role for it)

I remember even here on EOSHD, that early on there was a lot of negativity about the XC10 and it took a long while until people here warmed up to it and the XC10 somehow acquired the golden shine it has now in some people's opinions. 

Wasn't just on this forum either, *LOTS* of other reviewers and forums were quite critical or even outright negative about the XC10. 

Newsshooter summarized the reaction to the XC10:
 

https://www.newsshooter.com/2015/09/25/canon-xc10-review-a-simple-solution-for-everyday-video-journalism/

"huge letdown"

@Jordan Drake's views on the XC10 was not at all unusual. 

The problem with the XC10 is that it was marketed as a "professional" hybrid, even though it was neither a professional camera (it was really aimed at wannabe consumers) nor a hybrid. This was obvious at the time and pointed out by many commentators.

It was basically a camcorder stuffed into a stills like body, and that is just not a good fit. I think Canon had the idea that they would transform their XA/XFA/G line into a DSLR style body because that is what "consumers wanted", not understanding that people used that body style because they were hybrids, not because of the body itself. For pure video shooting (which is what the XC line was for really) the XA/XF/G body style is much more appropriate. I think they have realized the mistake now, and that is why we are seeing new camcorders with that body style instead of variations of the XC, which is what they should have done years ago in the first place. Camcorders may be obsolete in the consumer world but they most certainly are not in the professional world.

I am not saying that people don't use the XC cameras, nor that no one likes them (clearly some do), but just that most of the ones sold were because at the time the XC were the only Canon camcorders that had those capabilities at that price range. Now that there are other more traditional options from Canon I suspect that the potential market for the XC line has shrunk even further.

20 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I thought the lens fell apart in it or something like that? That would move it down my list also.

It did. It fell off the camera. I imagine that any reviewer would rate that as a negative, it is hard to post a glowing review of something that literally disintegrates and still stay credible.

1 hour ago, Novim said:

So true. XC10 is a good camera (within its own limits, like any other gear). And when those two clowns (Chris and Jordan) were engaged to make "reviews" for DPR, I stopped to follow the site. (I should have done that earlier, however.)

From @Andrew Reid to them, a clear path of decline. Now DRP is just in business of marketing newest gear.

No. The core of DPR is it's forums, which are primarily for consumers using stills cameras. It is one the best sites for that, outside of Canon products (Canon Reviews forums is top dog for Canon stills products). 

The reviews section is fine in general, a spat with Andrew does not make that different. Obviously stills centric, but that does not make the site irrelevant.

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14 hours ago, Snowbro said:

Dpreview forums are the forum version of North Korea

 

Ya, but your attitude basically was that anyone who did not share your opinion on a subject lacked intelligence and was an idiot. If they pointed out a flaw in your argument, they had "tunnel vision" and were "locked on to one tiny area", and consequently their counter argument could be dismissed as stupid. With that kind of an attitude, what sort of reaction did you expect to get from people? (Oh, I forgot, they were idiots).

People don't always agree on things, and sometimes people are wrong, even you. Debate is healthy. Dismissing people as "lacking intelligence" when they engage in it from an opposing point is not.

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2 hours ago, Novim said:

So true. XC10 is a good camera (within its own limits, like any other gear). And when those two clowns (Chris and Jordan) were engaged to make "reviews" for DPR, I stopped to follow the site. (I should have done that earlier, however.)

From @Andrew Reid to them, a clear path of decline. Now DRP is just in business of marketing newest gear.

I enjoy Chris and Jordan's videos. I think overall they do a good job reviewing cameras, are honest in their reviews, and I've found that when using cameras they've reviewed I come to a lot (but not all) of the same conclusions. 

I don't really go to DPReview's main site and skip their other YouTube content, but I enjoy Chris and Jordan. 

28 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

There is a Hell of a lot more Idiots on DPR than there is on here I can tell you that. There are people on there that want to argue just to argue. I only know one person on here that does that, ehh embarrassed lol..

There are also, I think, substantially more users there. Which is why Andrew is frustrated; his links being censored there harms his traffic and, frankly, deprives readers access to more knowledge. 

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Barney at DPReview is obviously fine with depriving his readers with access to more knowledge, to settle a personal dispute. 3 years of the ban now and it is starting to really get me down.

Now being interested, I visited dpreview site with great curiosity and without prejudice, and made three main personal, of course ingenious, conclusions:

1) out of web-business matter (about which I have zero competency) you really have full right to stay with smile high above and to be proud on superior look and feel of EOSHD - dpreview is so cluttered with all-over-the-place advertising messages that so obviously eat space for exchanging information and free communication: in comparison to EOSHD, visitor there inevitably has to have feeling of being squeezed in auxiliary rooms (contrary, here, not at least as side-curative effect, members have so clean, reverberating space for intoxicated listening of themselves when easily calling similar enthusiasts as clowns, idiots etc.) Simply, it is hard to stay at Dpreview too long and not to be either bored or afraid of too well-known supermarket claustrophobia

2) being so intrusively obliged to sponsors and so-so trying to find impossible balance between two contradictory, mutually exclusive tasks (serving as unbiased discussion portal under the permanent rafal of persuading ads and enumeration voting) - psychologically it is very hard to owner(s) of dpreview not to hear some inner voices of restless bad-conscience against character of purity of EOSHD, especially if once upon a time you knew each other or started from similar idealistic roots... so

3) I'd say owner(s) of dpreview simply envy you :)

(At least, I'd surely envy if I'm in his/their place, and if I'm not so notorious, hopelessly ignorant clown  :)

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2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Barney at DPReview is obviously fine with depriving his readers with access to more knowledge, to settle a personal dispute. 3 years of the ban now and it is starting to really get me down.

dont be down! screw them!

fwiw, i dont know ONE single person who has ever brought up dpreview to me in real life. not one time, ever ?

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7 hours ago, Mokara said:

Since they earn a living doing it, they are pros by definition. You not liking their opinion does not make it otherwise.

Yeah, the terminology is a tricky one.

I'm very supportive of the fact that YouTube, Vimeo, FB, Instagram, Patreon, and a myriad of other sites has allowed artists to get paid for their work, and allow them to have full-time careers in their chosen artistic field.

Unfortunately, it leaves us with a lack of terminology to refer to people that really seriously know how to create high-end content, vs people that know how to film unboxing videos and get brand deals.

There is an absolutely enormous difference in the level of skill required to make high-end TV or award-winning features vs making a living on YouTube shooting prank videos with your phone.

7 hours ago, Mokara said:

It was basically a camcorder stuffed into a stills like body, and that is just not a good fit. I think Canon had the idea that they would transform their XA/XFA/G line into a DSLR style body because that is what "consumers wanted", not understanding that people used that body style because they were hybrids, not because of the body itself. For pure video shooting (which is what the XC line was for really) the XA/XF/G body style is much more appropriate. I think they have realized the mistake now, and that is why we are seeing new camcorders with that body style instead of variations of the XC, which is what they should have done years ago in the first place. Camcorders may be obsolete in the consumer world but they most certainly are not in the professional world.

Have you ever held one?

7 hours ago, Mokara said:

It did. It fell off the camera. I imagine that any reviewer would rate that as a negative, it is hard to post a glowing review of something that literally disintegrates and still stay credible.

Ouch, I'd be pretty pissed if that happened to mine!

Thank goodness no other cameras ever have hardware problems :)

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7 hours ago, Mokara said:

It was basically a camcorder stuffed into a stills like body, and that is just not a good fit. I think Canon had the idea that they would transform their XA/XFA/G line into a DSLR style body because that is what "consumers wanted", not understanding that people used that body style because they were hybrids, not because of the body itself. For pure video shooting (which is what the XC line was for really) the XA/XF/G body style is much more appropriate. I think they have realized the mistake now, and that is why we are seeing new camcorders with that body style instead of variations of the XC, which is what they should have done years ago in the first place. Camcorders may be obsolete in the consumer world but they most certainly are not in the professional world.

This! And is why we're seeing now Canon release camcorders with a 1" sensor, there must be half a dozen or so of them now from Canon? Might even be the exact same 1" sensor as is also in the XC10/XC15!
 

7 hours ago, Mokara said:

I am not saying that people don't use the XC cameras, nor that no one likes them (clearly some do), but just that most of the ones sold were because at the time the XC were the only Canon camcorders that had those capabilities at that price range. Now that there are other more traditional options from Canon I suspect that the potential market for the XC line has shrunk even further.

You're reading my thoughts.

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6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Barney at DPReview is obviously fine with depriving his readers with access to more knowledge, to settle a personal dispute. 3 years of the ban now and it is starting to really get me down.

Seems totally counter-productive to me. Despite their best efforts - reviews of camera's video capabilities and recruitment of Jordan Drake - the site is still pretty much exclusively focused on 'stills'. The specialist video forum is pretty much deserted. They could do with interaction with a specialist video site.

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7 hours ago, Mokara said:

Ya, but your attitude basically was that anyone who did not share your opinion on a subject lacked intelligence and was an idiot. If they pointed out a flaw in your argument, they had "tunnel vision" and were "locked on to one tiny area", and consequently their counter argument could be dismissed as stupid. With that kind of an attitude, what sort of reaction did you expect to get from people? (Oh, I forgot, they were idiots).

People don't always agree on things, and sometimes people are wrong, even you. Debate is healthy. Dismissing people as "lacking intelligence" when they engage in it from an opposing point is not.

When someone blatantly ignores evidence presented to them, by multiple sources, they usually are not very smart. 

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7 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Barney at DPReview is obviously fine with depriving his readers with access to more knowledge, to settle a personal dispute. 3 years of the ban now and it is starting to really get me down.

Well, you have your own forum. Focus on that and ignore him. 

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A down vote WTF. I agree, after 3 years I doubt they are going to be best buddies anytime some. DPR's loss the way I see it. They do need help on the video side. You don't learn this stuff in a few years. Years of on the job training is a must I think. There is so damn many aspects to it is the problem. And Photo experience, other than maybe exposure, even that is weak, amounts to hardly nothing.

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The XC has a brilliant design. It is a mini C100. The old handycam design is what it is obsolete in my mind.

I really loved the JVC LS300 but I didn't like the form factor. The C100 is amazing hand held. I would kill one of you, to have a P4K with the XC form factor! Have you ever seen a FS5??

The problem with the XC, and everything that Canon sells, was the price obviously. It was way overpriced!

Imagine what a hit a 4K C100mkiii could have been with the right price, but no. Canon put a raw lite there and the codecs of the hypothetical C100mkIII, called it C200, amd priced it to compete against the FS7mkII!! Great strategy..

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1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

I would kill one of you, to have a P4K with the XC form factor!

Now you give idea/courage to BM for immediately starting new (super advance) page of their so successful timemachine advertising solution: "Don't kill anybody, instead save a life and be the first in preorder list fok P4K II, available as soon as spring 2023".

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4 hours ago, anonim said:

Now you give idea/courage to BM for immediately starting new (super advance) page of their so successful timemachine advertising solution: "Don't kill anybody, instead save a life and be the first in preorder list fok P4K II, available as soon as spring 2023".

Now the only thing is to make a killer band. It might speed things. I'm in. ?

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