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Aragonnarun

V-log unlocked for free!

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"A new firmware V2.4 will be available starting Sept 17th. Use of the V-Log L workaround associated with firmware Version 2.3 runs the risk of the Zebra Function not working and the Histogram reading improperly."

That might explain why people using the workaround are having so many problems with exposure and noise.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Jup. Almost as if they tricked people. It's like you're in a mall and walk into this one store and they've got a little promotional stand to sample something... you like it so much, you come back again a little later for another free sample at the end of your shopping spree hoping the lady doesn't recognise you from earlier. Still leaves you wanting more... you know you can't keep showing up for free samples forever and finally just give in a buy the damn thing to enjoy it in abundance and all its glory.

Does make sense just to pay for it. In some way everybody that's serious about their video gets the real NLE deal too, I guess you could probably download a cracked version from somewhere, but if it's something you actually have to work with... you just want to keep it legit and furthermore: with the least amount of hassle/worries about functionality. Anyways, they've got my 103 or so EUR already. Just would appreciate it if they'd ship out those keys already, really don't see what's keeping them. In meanwhile it can't hurt to leave 2.3 on there with the workaround V-LOG already sampling it. Already having some experience with how to shoot & process the footage will save some time having to figure it out later.

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Looks fantastic.  I was doubting the practicality of v log because all the images thus far seemed like there was too much noise to deal with, but it looks like with the right settings and lighting situations, it's fantastic.

Thanks Michael! Yeah I think there are some benefits to it even in 8bit internal recording. I found overexposing by quite a lot to be key. I found myself increasing the brightness in post even when the original footage was overexposed. So in a way, this doesn't quite increase lowlight performance at all, but rather increases dynamic range in contrasty situations. 

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I tried a little, at home, nothing serious, but using my GH4 next to my BlackMagic Pocket, the difference is huge. The GH4 with V-Log gave me far more noise with similar setting and lenses. I normally prefer the easy (and long battery life) GH4 for everyday shooting, reserving the BlackMagic for shorter work or for work with no rush, but this time the GH4 disappointed me a little. The long awaited V-Log looks awful next to the flat Pocket's ProRes HQ.

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I tried a little, at home, nothing serious, but using my GH4 next to my BlackMagic Pocket, the difference is huge. The GH4 with V-Log gave me far more noise with similar setting and lenses. I normally prefer the easy (and long battery life) GH4 for everyday shooting, reserving the BlackMagic for shorter work or for work with no rush, but this time the GH4 disappointed me a little. The long awaited V-Log looks awful next to the flat Pocket's ProRes HQ.

I think V-LOG really needs an external recorder to shine. 8-bit 4:2:0 just doesn't cut it. I wonder if the camera has enough horsepower to do internal 10-bit with another firmware upgrade. 

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I tried a little, at home, nothing serious, but using my GH4 next to my BlackMagic Pocket, the difference is huge. The GH4 with V-Log gave me far more noise with similar setting and lenses. I normally prefer the easy (and long battery life) GH4 for everyday shooting, reserving the BlackMagic for shorter work or for work with no rush, but this time the GH4 disappointed me a little. The long awaited V-Log looks awful next to the flat Pocket's ProRes HQ.

Yeah the 8-bit 100mbps codec is no match.

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Yeah the 8-bit 100mbps codec is no match.

More like user error, quite a lot of user were disappointed with slog2 on a7s, the noise is too much compare to other profile unless you +1/+2ev over.

I can get more DR on 4:2:0 XAVC-S than 4:2:2 10bit on bmpcc on a couple occasion, that 14dr really makes difference.

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Tried this test with a harsh backlight, mainly iso1000, 1250. See any noise people? I can't assess the image properly at the moment, my eyes are going funny with all the pixel peeping today 

Also from my tests, I haven't got any issue with the noise with ISO 1600 and below. But the real issue is the color falling apart easily when you try to tweak it a bit in resolve. I wish they can have a firmware update to bring 14bit raw external feeding like the A7R II. Everyone would definitely buy their package in order to release the V-log horse power..

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Thanks Michael! Yeah I think there are some benefits to it even in 8bit internal recording. I found overexposing by quite a lot to be key. I found myself increasing the brightness in post even when the original footage was overexposed. So in a way, this doesn't quite increase lowlight performance at all, but rather increases dynamic range in contrasty situations. 

I think that's what people are doing with the A7S as well.  They are shifting the histogram to the right since the darker group of pixels are more likely to be banded together during compression.

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"A new firmware V2.4 will be available starting Sept 17th. Use of the V-Log L workaround associated with firmware Version 2.3 runs the risk of the Zebra Function not working and the Histogram reading improperly."

That might explain why people using the workaround are having so many problems with exposure and noise.

I really doubt the Histogram is not working. Looks more like a way a coder would implement it versus the way a beta tester likes to have it.

Currently the zebra stops working above 80%. That is because there is nothing to protect above 80%, you reached the end. At least it makes you aware there is nothing above it while you tried to get your stripes back. For the Histogram they choose IRE 42 to be smack in the middle. If you then decide that IRE 80 is all the way to the right and want to keep the histogram proportional correct it explains why black isn't all the way to the left.

If the Histogram is going to change it might mean IRE 50 is going to be smack in the middle again. Not sure I would like that, as it would also mean the Histograms reading stops around 80 ...waste of space on both sides of the Histogram.

Come think of it, probably didn't work with external monitors...

Any how I don't think the new version will solve noise in any way

 

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Been testing A LOT. 

I know how to expose, shoot, and professionally grade LOG in resolve, I never use luts I make my own LUT for each image, and when testing an image performance I'll certainly not use a LUT and push manually,

I worked extensively from the first Arri Log-C, then C-Log (8bit), then BM LOG (8bit LT), then S-LOG2 (8 bit), then now V-Log (8bit), and on all these 8bit LOG cameras, the tonality and colour, compression and banding and noise were never an issue, not an issue with the C100 8bit 24mbps 4:2:0 1080p yet strangely tons of issues with the GH4 8bit 100mbps 4:2:0 4K and worse in 8bit 200mbps 4:2:0 HD.

I'll never trust codec numbers on gradeability again, never ever, ever, neither take the words LOG as equivalent, they're so different it almost means nothing.

The major issues I am seeing 

1- Noise is completely ridiculous. Not sure how V-Log changed this so dramatically. My GH4 is clean!

2- Banding. Complete CHUNKS of colour/luma steps visible in the footage gradients and clear on the waveform monitor (when stretched back/de-logged)

3- Colour science is NOT natural, it's a look, but not natural at all, most evidently in yellows/blues. You might like that or not, I hate it, Cine-D looks more filmic.

4- The increase in dynamic range I see with my eye, is no where near 12 stops (pocket, c100/300, production cam). Noisier shadows but just little lower highlight clipping.

The cause in my own personal opinion: The sensor itself is not great in noise performance and dynamic range AND/OR V-Log is designed for the 444 RGB RAW 14 stops od DR Varicam, the implementation here is throwing away SO much just to get a closer look to matching the Varicam.

Solution, record at 4K, expose extremely high to ETTR, MUST use neat video, correct blue channel THEN cr. Neat video and ETTR are the only way I got decent images. 

Solution #2: A 10bit recorder. I am sure it will especially produce Amazing LOG performance with a 4K 10 recorder (Ninja Assassin/Pix-E5/Q7+), HD 10bit? not sure, hopefullt it will be a fix too when my video-assist arrives, but then again at that time the GH6 will already be announced :)

Until then, neat video is doing me miracles with the V-Log footage issues (noise & banding). I suggest it for 8bit V-Log as an essential tool.

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I think V-LOG really needs an external recorder to shine. 8-bit 4:2:0 just doesn't cut it. I wonder if the camera has enough horsepower to do internal 10-bit with another firmware upgrade. 

GH4 would be perfect if could shoot ProRes on SD card just like Pocket... :)
 

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yeah, i've got a video uploading to vimeo right now that shows the huge difference between 8 bit and 10 bit. i'll leave the download option enabled so everyone can grab the 10 bit upload. i happen to have a 10 bit monitor so the difference is even more evident but you'll be able to see a clear distinction on an 8 bit monitor too. the cyan/magenta artifacting is pretty ridiculous as well. 

given that I'd be using V-Log L with an external recorder, i'm still left with choosing increased dynamic range and decreased tonality, or vice versa by using Natural, Cinelike, etc.

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

GH4 would be perfect if could shoot ProRes on SD card just like Pocket... :)
 

But expensive! :d Blackmagic probably could do it as they already had the ProRes licence/deal (or whatever apple does) in their external recorders/boxes, also explains why AJA cion gets ProRes from day one cheap. Panasonic, to get ProRes on the 70.000$ Varicam requires an external 10.000$ Codex recorder system. So I don't think we'll be seeing ProRes in GH4-type cameras soon. 

Atomos to the rescue.

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Since this is somewhat on topic about v-log. For the ones that use davinci resolve. What settings are you guys using? I know there isn't a v-log option or anything. Just want to know what you guys setup your settings.

Thanks!

-ralf

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Just got a shipping confirmation for the V Log key. Should be here Friday.

I hope Panasonic tweaks the VLog some more to reduce the noise among other things.

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Guest Ebrahim Saadawi

Since this is somewhat on topic about v-log. For the ones that use davinci resolve. What settings are you guys using? I know there isn't a v-log option or anything. Just want to know what you guys setup your settings.

Thanks!

-ralf

Luma/chroma curves and three way colour wheels correctors for me! Just adjust you contrast to taste, then adjust your colours and saturation to taste using any plugin/node. Go all complicated with masks, keys, feathers, tracking, selective saturation, noise reduction, etc as the scene needs! no ''settings'' one can give really, at least I can't

I think there's an official De-Log Lut for those who don't want to manually do it, does anybody know where we could find it? The official Panasonic one? Should be a cool starting point.

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