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12K. I want an engineer's thoughts...


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Why is @John Brawley being pushed on us so much across the EOS and the net today?  I thought real DP's don't hang out on the EOS? The proof will be in the footage not how technical someone talks

12K is more a marketing meme for the camera. Its real point is that it doesn't have a 2x2 Bayer matrix (as in my avatar on the left), but a 3x3 RGB matrix where all three colors are equally prese

Y’all should read johnbrawley.wordpress.com  it answers a lot of the assumptions in this thread. 

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certainly Blackmagic is now interested in other segment of the market, we were all expecting a new FF pocket, and we got this white elephant, strange, very strange indeed.

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

He left Canon. Fired for the overheating situation.

why the new canons doesn't look so bad after this morning?, a trick of the mind maybe.

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Just like we need more than 640K of RAM or a car that goes 180mph.

If you don’t want that speed buy the Honda Civic.

$10K for this? The Red Komodo is not looking so tasty anymore for the people in that market.

$10K invest that will probably will spread out over 8 years (If the body doesn’t break!).

I think this was a smart move. The 6K pocket Pro can come later. Hopefully with more compelling features for handheld solo shooters.

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I think this is way beyond the RED Komodo, which is just an entry-level gimbal camera. It is aimed more at the Kinefinity, Sony and Canon cameras in that $10K segment along with the RED Helium 8K, which is more than double the price. The main issue is that it is a missed opportunity to offer FF. As it is, the URSA MINI PRO G2 has more DR and is also S35 with the same body (interchangeable lens mount, etc.), and it produces stunning footage in 4.6K RAW 60 fps and 4K RAW 120fps at $6500. That camera has a dual-gain architecture and has been nearly perfected over several iterations. The only major issue is the red-channel clipping on tail lights, for example. Other than that, it offers a very compelling feature set at a much better price.

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12K is more a marketing meme for the camera.

Its real point is that it doesn't have a 2x2 Bayer matrix (as in my avatar on the left), but a 3x3 RGB matrix where all three colors are equally present.

That means you will be able to downsample the 12K sensor signal into a 4K signal with no color interpolation by binning 3x3 pixels into one pixel. That's the equivalent of a 3-chip camera or Foveon sensor. Clean 4K with 4:4:4 color sampling and zero debayering artefacts.

That's the real point (and news) of this camera. 12K is just marketing fodder for bloggers and influencers.

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26 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Sshhh. we want people to upgrade from the G2 and drive 2nd hand prices down.

Same first thought. Smoothness of G2 image is so wonderful... BTW, although it is obviously just promo clip, that JB's skin tone show sequence doesn't look so smooth to me as, say 

 

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1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

$10K for this? The Red Komodo is not looking so tasty anymore for the people in that market.

I honestly doubt the new Blackmagic is going to damage Red Komodo market, the new RED has the most compressed codec in the market, so less store needed meaning less money in disks, also will have autofocus (if it is close to DPAF it is a winner), and in a smaller package, so I can use it in gimbals, drones, etc, it is going to be the perfect B or C camera for big productions, and many people also would use it to jump into RED train.

After canon R's overheating disaster I am now waiting for the Komodo presentation, and the new Sony of course, anyway, the niche for this Blackmagic camera is going to be very specific, and clearly 99% of the people in this forum is not going to invest on it.

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28 minutes ago, hijodeibn said:

I honestly doubt the new Blackmagic is going to damage Red Komodo market, the new RED has the most compressed codec in the market, so less store needed meaning less money in disks, also will have autofocus (if it is close to DPAF it is a winner), and in a smaller package, so I can use it in gimbals, drones, etc, it is going to be the perfect B or C camera for big productions, and many people also would use it to jump into RED train.

After canon R's overheating disaster I am now waiting for the Komodo presentation, and the new Sony of course, anyway, the niche for this Blackmagic camera is going to be very specific, and clearly 99% of the people in this forum is not going to invest on it.

I’m a prospective StormTrooper buyer and to say  that this announcement doesn’t throw a kink or doesn’t spill over into RED’s Komodo market is probably a mistake. Yes I agree with the Komodo being a perfect B/C cam and a entryway into RED, but with  $2k more you have a future proof (5-6 years) of high quality A cam capability! I’m quite sure there are plenty Komodo line standers thinking about investing into this ecosystem. 

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18 minutes ago, Alt Shoo said:

I’m a prospective StormTrooper buyer and to say  that this announcement doesn’t throw a kink or doesn’t spill over into RED’s Komodo market is probably a mistake. Yes I agree with the Komodo being a perfect B/C cam and a entryway into RED, but with  $2k more you have a future proof (5-6 years) of high quality A cam capability! I’m quite sure there are plenty Komodo line standers thinking about investing into this ecosystem. 

my understanding is that Komodo will be around $6K, which is a lot less than the new Blackmagic, where did you get that the final price is $8K?

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Just now, hijodeibn said:

my understanding is that Komodo will be around $6K, which is a lot less than the new Blackmagic, where did you get that the final price is $8K?

Yes for the regular black, but the stormtrooper is 7 then cfast cards (certified approved) and then the tax. Also people are going to buy other parts to build a proper rig, which the average comes to over a G.

While the BM comes with their “award winning” shoulder style design and camcorder body ideal for hand held work. 

With the order I’m doing for the Komodo it comes out to the same price as the BM12K with taxes. 

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1 hour ago, rawshooter said:

12K is more a marketing meme for the camera.

Its real point is that it doesn't have a 2x2 Bayer matrix (as in my avatar on the left), but a 3x3 RGB matrix where all three colors are equally present.

That means you will be able to downsample the 12K sensor signal into a 4K signal with no color interpolation by binning 3x3 pixels into one pixel. That's the equivalent of a 3-chip camera or Foveon sensor. Clean 4K with 4:4:4 color sampling and zero debayering artefacts.

That's the real point (and news) of this camera. 12K is just marketing fodder for bloggers and influencers.

Yes, I agree. But it does even more than this. I believe Grant said RGB (444) output in 8K! That is far more than what Canon and Sony can offer you on their high end cameras with a similar RGB recording function.

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8 minutes ago, Alt Shoo said:

Yes for the regular black, but the stormtrooper is 7 then cfast cards (certified approved) and then the tax. Also people are going to buy other parts to build a proper rig, which the average comes to over a G.

While the BM comes with their “award winning” shoulder style design and camcorder body ideal for hand held work. 

With the order I’m doing for the Komodo it comes out to the same price as the BM12K with taxes. 

well, tax also apply for Blackmagic (so higher price, higher tax) and if you are in the US just order it from B&H and tax is cero. Usually people will have a rig where to mount the Komodo, or can get a second hand on eBay for cheap, a dedicated cage looks fine but I doubt will be needed, and I am sure a lot of people will use it as their A cam, if the autofocus is near DPAF will be my A cam, the mount is RF, so we will have ND filters with the adapter to EF, it really does looks good in paper, let's see how it is in reality, could be another disaster like the new canons with the limitation to be used in the arctic, but certainly you can built it for a lot less than $10K, and most probably there will be cheaper Cfast that will work on it ether, also the Komodo will be perfect to shoot on the stress unnoticed, something imposible with a C200, C300 and this Blackmagic, that's the main reason I have not get a C200 yet. Still many things to be seeing in real life for the Komodo, but if RED do it right, I don't see where Blackmagic can eat their market, even in commercials, if the customer is paying a big check he is expecting to see an Arri or a RED on set, not a Blackmagic.

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21 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Which will then push down UMP G1 prices 😉

Which will then push down UM4.6K prices! Yay, finally I can afford one. 

So yes, everyone please go buy a UMP 12K ASAP!

The OG 4.6k's are getting pretty cheap. I got two now. The BRAW on the mini pro's is probably worth the extra $500-$1000 though. 

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1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The OG 4.6k's are getting pretty cheap. I got two now. The BRAW on the mini pro's is probably worth the extra $500-$1000 though. 

Yeah def + internal ND's + colour science 4 + noise improvements. Plus the ump is the only camera that has cdng, braw and prores. 

So I think the ump prices will not be affected.

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I have the Steve Jobs kind of viewpoint. Many times, over qualified and over experienced people can be dangerous to development. Especially of newer technologies and ideas.

I suspect that Blackmagic is slowly releasing details about the sensor and tech in the 12k camera. And that, there is a Lot More, to it, than meets the eye. Starting with the CFA, the ability to have multiple readout speeds, how it does 12k at 60p, and has such low rolling shutter. Also, I am guessing they've reduced aliasing and moiré artefacts, without the OLPF/OLF. 

 

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