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Olympus sells Imaging Business


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43 minutes ago, Super8 said:

I'll work on my attitude. I can't promise anything and most will keep down voting my comments but I'm trying to help and give my take when I have one.  I will try.

What are you trying to move into? FF or Super35 ?

I used MFT, moved to Super35 and then FF.  Right now I could go Super35 if the right camera for the right price presented itself.  FF is frustrating because you still have to buy into a system.  Canon might be the way to go but we have to see final specs and real world testing.  I very much want to move to Canon.  Sony doesn't seem to want to innovate anymore and I don't trust them to be dedicated to FF down the road.  I love the S1 and S1H and would move to Panasonic but the AF bothers me.  I don't think AF is as bad as people say but I need to test it before I buy it. 

 

I want to move to S35, with one eye on fullframe.  I know many cameras are pushing fullframe, but its not there yet in my opinion.  There's still compromise and manufacturer are all over the place.  Sony still needs work on its colour and to get back in the game and take video seriously again.  Panasonic need to either make good on CDAF or embrace PDAF.  Nikon are just being Nikon... hard to know where they stand.  I'm waiting for the right fullframe camera.  I've not seen it yet.   

The great thing with MFT was that it wasn't just a sensor size, but also the lens mount.  Lenses bought for the GH cameras could be used on any MFT camera like Olympus and the Pocket 4K.  Fullframe though is a mixed bag of lens mounts.  I struggle with this; it makes jumping into fullframe more difficult, especially as I will have to invest in new lenses should I move to fullframe.  I really have no idea which fullframe lenses to buy and which would give me options for the future and not tie me to any brand of cameras.  I wish there was one defining lens mount for fullframe, then I could buy a lens and feel I could easily use it on any fullframe camera without worrying about adaptors.

 

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1 hour ago, Super8 said:

my opionon about the GH5 is correct, that the GH5 is all spec with a picture that doesn't hold up to today's standards. 

GH5 is a 3 year old camera, and a hybrid (not dedicated to video like the E and P4K), and still being used today successfully for lots of things.

I just think people like to hate.

The GH4R was used in Top Gear for years. They have used GH5S as well. Not one person cared. Zip. They probably didn’t even know it was shot with a GH5S. Crop factor wasn’t a problem for that production, mostly because it very often doesn’t.

People say you can’t use MFT for stills. Yet, the 1DXIII and A9 have roughly 20MP sensors. I bet if you took a photo, printed it, and stood at normal viewing distance you couldn’t tell. Should you even care? It’s ART. And of course we’ve been taking 20MP stills with FF, APSC, and MFT for years.

And finally, the people that think MFT is dead (it could be). Why do you take the 5-10 minutes to write some post about how it’s dead and how FF is king? I rarely see MFT users coming on a board and saying FF is dead because it doesn’t have a 300mm f4 lenses they is lightweight. They are always defending their choice of gear to make something with.

Olmypus fell apart for many reasons. It’s a loss to the community as a whole. It’s one less choice in the market. It’s one less potential innovator in the market. That is the real loss.

Olympus brought IBIS to mirrorless and guess what? Now everybody wants it on their cameras!

Arguing wether the most successfully MFT camera Panasonic has ever released is trash is a waste of time.

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29 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I want to move to S35, with one eye on fullframe.  I know many cameras are pushing fullframe, but its not there yet in my opinion.  There's still compromise and manufacturer are all over the place.  Sony still needs work on its colour and to get back in the game and take video seriously again.  Panasonic need to either make good on CDAF or embrace PDAF.  Nikon are just being Nikon... hard to know where they stand.  I'm waiting for the right fullframe camera.  I've not seen it yet.   

The great thing with MFT was that it wasn't just a sensor size, but also the lens mount.  Lenses bought for the GH cameras could be used on any MFT camera like Olympus and the Pocket 4K.  Fullframe though is a mixed bag of lens mounts.  I struggle with this; it makes jumping into fullframe more difficult, especially as I will have to invest in new lenses should I move to fullframe.  I really have no idea which fullframe lenses to buy and which would give me options for the future and not tie me to any brand of cameras.  I wish there was one defining lens mount for fullframe, then I could buy a lens and feel I could easily use it on any fullframe camera without worrying about adaptors.

 

I think Canon is going to lead the way with the R5 for FF hybrid shooting with video being priority.   It should check all the boxes and be far ahead of everyone else.  The dark horse will be BlackMagic for FF.  With the price drop on the P6K I'm not sure how sales are going for them.  They can't be making big profit on those cameras.

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3 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

And finally, the people that think MFT is dead (it could be). Why do you take the 5-10 minutes to write some post about how it’s dead and how FF is king? I rarely see MFT users coming on a board and saying FF is dead because it doesn’t have a 300mm f4 lenses they is lightweight. They are always defending their choice of gear to make something with.

Olympus falling (isn't that a movie) is connected to MFT and not a good sign. That's my take.

I try to respond to people that reply to my comments.

 

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Just now, Super8 said:

I think Canon is going to lead the way with the R5 for FF hybrid shooting with video being priority.   It should check all the boxes and be far ahead of everyone else.  The dark horse will be BlackMagic for FF.  With the price drop on the P6K I'm not sure how sales are going for them.  They can't be making big profit on those cameras.

I think the price drop was more giving it the price it deserved.  Its original price was too expensive in my opinion.  I also see it as a response to the ecomical impact of the virus.  As a small company, they probably don't have the diversity and margins of profit to see them through a dry spell.  Their price drop made sense.  If they sell more of their stock, its money coming in at the end of the day.

The R5 sounds good, but we have yet to see the results.  How good or bad is the RS?  How easy to edit will the RAW files be?  My PC struggles with H264 and even more with H265.  BRAW though is like butter to edit. So smooth and easy to cut through.  When I see that from fullframe internal recording, I'm not going to ignore that.  There's no point buying the R5 if its a bitch to edit the files on my computer.

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1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

 

Olmypus fell apart for many reasons. It’s a loss to the community as a whole. It’s one less choice in the market. It’s one less potential innovator in the market. That is the real loss.

Growing up I use to visit the nearby city of Southampton.  It had some lovely shops, huge Virgin Megastore and HMV stores for my Video Cassette and later DVD purchases, Debehams store, where I could buy clothes from different brands, Toys R Us I loved as a kid, a huge Jessops store when I got into Photography, Woolworths for odds and ends, various book stores.  

Now, those shops have gone or downgraded to smaller stores.  HMV went last year, Debehams only recently.  These shops were a huge part of my growing up, and I regret their loss.  I miss them.

But... its my fault.  Well, not all my own, but just like many people, I moved my shopping online.  I changed how I shopped, where I shopped and what kind of things I bought.  These shops fell because of people like me.  

And Olympus fell because of people like me, because our way of buying and what we bought changed.  What we wanted changed. And because like these shops I mentioned, Olympus failed to adapt to this new trend.  

So yes, its a loss.  Its very sad.  But its happening everywhere.  Those who adapt, survive, those who don't fall.  

When people complain about the quality of features in a new camera, the answer given is usually, that the camera isn't meant for them, or its not what the camera is meant for.  To which my answer is why not.  Smartphones don't take this approach.  They are happy to be whatever is needed to sell the most units.  60p at 4K, sure why not.. throw it in.  

But camera manufacturers...  Take Panasonic, they have just introduced what some have said is a vlogging camera.  The G100.  If that camera could take videos, and then upload it to the Internet without a computer, it could be classed as a true vlogging camera.  An innovation.  As it is, its a crippled 4K camera, with some new minor gimmicks that could appeal to vloggers and a miss mash of former camera features, wrapped up in a new body for a cheap price.

Its not going to do anything to stop a downward trend in camera buying.  Now, of course, my criticism of this camera can be countered with..  'the camera isn't meant for me.' 

But if the camera was more innovative, if it did connect to the internet, did allow me to take photos, perform a basic edit of them, plus do video and upload them all straight to Instagram or Facebook, or email them to my family, would I be interested.  Maybe. 

Camera manufacturers need to do more if they want to continue for the next 10 or 20 years.  There's only so many Ks you can add to resolution to keep camera forums hyped up and excited.  

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4 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

But camera manufacturers...  Take Panasonic, they have just introduced what some have said is a vlogging camera.  The G100.  If that camera could take videos, and then upload it to the Internet without a computer, it could be classed as a true vlogging camera.  An innovation.  As it is, its a crippled 4K camera, with some new minor gimmicks that could appeal to vloggers and a miss mash of former camera features, wrapped up in a new body for a cheap price.

Yes and it is cameras like the G100 which will topple Panasonic if they carry on investing hard cash into those terrible decisions that came up with it.

I am genuinely concerned for the company.

The full frame Panasonic cameras have not exactly been flying off shelves lately, either.

I feel that one of the most creative camera engineering teams in the business is being badly let down by marketing forces and poor product planning / conception.

Watching that dreadful Panasonic rep in the C5D video was unbearable. The idiots she takes us for. Atrocious. Saying they couldn't put a larger sensor on a connected device. They have already done it!! CM1!

There is zero reason in 2020 with the technology we have that a micro four thirds camera cannot connect directly to social network sites via 4G.

They are even cannibalising their GH5 sales with some shitty cheap camera, because the GH5 was a popular vlogging camera in its own right.

I hope Panasonic have an internal enquiry into this debacle after the G100 sales flop and ALL those responsible take full responsibility. Fire them if required.

And get the damned AF fixed on the S1 / S1H successors too.

4 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Its not going to do anything to stop a downward trend in camera buying.  Now, of course, my criticism of this camera can be countered with..  'the camera isn't meant for me.'  But if the camera was more innovative, if it did connect to the internet, did allow me to take photos, perform a basic edit of them, plus do video and upload them all straight to Instagram or Facebook, or email them to my family, would I be interested.  Maybe.

You an do it all quicker on a smartphone.

A large sensor smartphone - maybe I would be interested, but they couldn't put a Micro Four Thirds lens mount on that, the optics would be too large to be jeans pocketable.

Panasonic seem to think YouTubers shoot 1080p and edit videos on their iPad.

In what year?

2011?

4 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

Camera manufacturers need to do more if they want to continue for the next 10 or 20 years.  There's only so many Ks you can add to resolution to keep camera forums hyped up and excited.  

100% agree

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2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

Growing up I use to visit the nearby city of Southampton.  It had some lovely shops, huge Virgin Megastore and HMV stores for my Video Cassette and later DVD purchases, Debehams store, where I could buy clothes from different brands, Toys R Us I loved as a kid, a huge Jessops store when I got into Photography, Woolworths for odds and ends, various book stores.  

Now, those shops have gone or downgraded to smaller stores.  HMV went last year, Debehams only recently.  These shops were a huge part of my growing up, and I regret their loss.  I miss them.

But... its my fault.  Well, not all my own, but just like many people, I moved my shopping online.  I changed how I shopped, where I shopped and what kind of things I bought.  These shops fell because of people like me. 

Shops fell because they didn't embrace online retail and weren't ready for Amazon. 

Amazon undercut all retail shops before retail shops knew how to counter cut Amazon. 

In 2020 a ToysRUs, Radio Shack, even Virgin Megastore could survive in the retail space.  They all failed because they didn't want online sales to take away from brick and mortar sales.  Right now you go into Best Buy, you look up the hard drive or camera accessory and check Amazons price and if it's cheaper Best Buy will match it.  No waiting a day two or three for Amazon and you get to see items before you buy them. 

Stores closing had nothing to do with you buying online.  Do you remember how long it took for Best Buy to price match?  People are flooding into the store to buy items in person.  People still get sucked into big store shopping experiences.

I get your point and I do miss stores that closed down.  Remember Blockbuster ?  The had the world in their pocket and were flowing in cash.  I would have never ever thought they could go under like they did. 

All stores have to do is price match Amazon and go all in with customer service, in-store-pick-up and returns.  Online orders are a pain for returns, not knowing if products suck or not and damage while being shipped. 

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7 hours ago, Super8 said:

 

Stores closing had nothing to do with you buying online.  Do you remember how long it took for Best Buy to price match?  People are flooding into the store to buy items in person.  People still get sucked into big store shopping experiences.

I was over generalising when I said online.  My main point really was that there have been so many big companies that have fallen in the last decade, and they fell mainly because customers stopped using them.  So whilst we are sad to see them go, they went because we stopped being their customer. 

Obviously like Olympus, they could have done more to keep us as their customers.  But sometimes, its impossible to adapt.  I can't see how Blockbuster for instance could ever have survived the changes and yet still be true to what they were.  Its part of a past that is no longer relevant now. 

Could Olympus have survived if it expanded its camera line up to fullframe.  Maybe, but I'm not convinced.  Canon and Nikon dominate the Photography side with Sony making big inroads; Panasonic is trying to get a foot in the door, but it remains to see if this continues and isn't just a one off.  How many camera companies does the industry need, to keep each one profitable?  

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I actually think that the GH5 and MFT vs FF debate throughout the thread is on topic, assuming that's what @Andrew Reid was referencing.  Olympus has sold its imaging business, it was one half of the MFT alliance and was responsible for basically half the MFT cameras made (excepting the odd model from BM, Zcam, etc), so one of the biggest impacts might be the death of the MFT system.

To that end I'm interested in if the GH5 really was so bad as @Super8 has made out, and if MFT does have a fundamental look to it (beyond people not knowing how to choose focal lengths).

If the GH5 really was that bad and has a fundamental look to it then it really won't be helped, but if there aren't fundamental issues then 1) what is going on, and 2) why are people mistaken?  These feed into the future of MFT and the implications of Olympus selling its imaging business.

I'm yet to actually get a straight answer on either of these issues - either on the GH5 or on a given sensor size having a 'look'.

Happy to take it offline if people aren't interested, but lots of people were liking / disliking the conversation so I figured I wasn't the only one interested.   Thoughts?

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6 hours ago, kye said:

I actually think that the GH5 and MFT vs FF debate throughout the thread is on topic, assuming that's what @Andrew Reid was referencing.  Olympus has sold its imaging business, it was one half of the MFT alliance and was responsible for basically half the MFT cameras made (excepting the odd model from BM, Zcam, etc), so one of the biggest impacts might be the death of the MFT system.

To that end I'm interested in if the GH5 really was so bad as @Super8 has made out, and if MFT does have a fundamental look to it (beyond people not knowing how to choose focal lengths).

If the GH5 really was that bad and has a fundamental look to it then it really won't be helped, but if there aren't fundamental issues then 1) what is going on, and 2) why are people mistaken?  These feed into the future of MFT and the implications of Olympus selling its imaging business.

I'm yet to actually get a straight answer on either of these issues - either on the GH5 or on a given sensor size having a 'look'.

Happy to take it offline if people aren't interested, but lots of people were liking / disliking the conversation so I figured I wasn't the only one interested.   Thoughts?

I think @Andrew Reid was talking about the pickering and calling people trolls that live in moms basement.

The areas of the GH5 needs to be addressed by anyone using that camera with or without speed boosters.  Every camera has color issues.  

Take a look at this video.  It's technology from 2015. 

- Can the GH5 shoot this and if so what lens adjustments need to be made? 

- On paper spec wise the GH5 holds up to the C300 II

- Can you get the same look? The same DOF subject to background parallax?

- Can you get the same motion cadence?

- Can you get the same color balance?

We can talk offline if this is moving this thread off the original topic.

 

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20 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes and it is cameras like the G100 which will topple Panasonic if they carry on investing hard cash into those terrible decisions that came up with it.

I am genuinely concerned for the company.

The full frame Panasonic cameras have not exactly been flying off shelves lately, either.

I feel that one of the most creative camera engineering teams in the business is being badly let down by marketing forces and poor product planning / conception.

Watching that dreadful Panasonic rep in the C5D video was unbearable. The idiots she takes us for. Atrocious. Saying they couldn't put a larger sensor on a connected device. They have already done it!! CM1!

There is zero reason in 2020 with the technology we have that a micro four thirds camera cannot connect directly to social network sites via 4G.

They are even cannibalising their GH5 sales with some shitty cheap camera, because the GH5 was a popular vlogging camera in its own right.

I hope Panasonic have an internal enquiry into this debacle after the G100 sales flop and ALL those responsible take full responsibility. Fire them if required.

And get the damned AF fixed on the S1 / S1H successors too.

I agree completely - it's hard to believe the G100 has been 'designed' by the same product planning team that bought us a succession of ever improving G, GH and GX series cameras - have all the good people departed, or are they being over-ruled by higher-up management?

It just looks like a hurriedly-put-together response to the ZV-1 (Panasonic having got wind of what Sony was planning).

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7 hours ago, kye said:

I actually think that the GH5 and MFT vs FF debate throughout the thread is on topic, assuming that's what @Andrew Reid was referencing.  Olympus has sold its imaging business, it was one half of the MFT alliance and was responsible for basically half the MFT cameras made (excepting the odd model from BM, Zcam, etc), so one of the biggest impacts might be the death of the MFT system.

To that end I'm interested in if the GH5 really was so bad as @Super8 has made out, and if MFT does have a fundamental look to it (beyond people not knowing how to choose focal lengths).

If the GH5 really was that bad and has a fundamental look to it then it really won't be helped, but if there aren't fundamental issues then 1) what is going on, and 2) why are people mistaken?  These feed into the future of MFT and the implications of Olympus selling its imaging business.

I'm yet to actually get a straight answer on either of these issues - either on the GH5 or on a given sensor size having a 'look'.

Happy to take it offline if people aren't interested, but lots of people were liking / disliking the conversation so I figured I wasn't the only one interested.   Thoughts?

If the GH5 was bad, it would not be selling/have sold as well as it did/does.

Many reviewers used it as the camera they shot reviews of OTHER cameras on (The FF Panasonics are being used now by many though I  think some use the GH5 still).

It is a hybrid camera and lots use it as such though for many it is a video camera for professional use.

We all have opinions but when people say others OPINIONS are wrong and then argue is when the discussion derailed.

There is a place for M43 just as there is for all sensor sizes.

I do not currently have an M43 camera but my main love is low light shooting and it is not as good for that but I have been happy with the M43 cameras i have had as second cameras.      I still want to get a cheap OM1 first version for  its PDAF to try with my late dads 2 four thirds lenses (though they might not work or be limited since they both seem to have known issues the lenses developed)

Regards M43 VS FF, I prefer FF but that is mainly as a stills shooter because there are things I can do that are just not possible with M43 or at least far far easier to do, at least as things stand.     Video and I am happy enough wth my A7s for my limited needs and now adding a Rx100 iv as my pocket camera I may not need anything else for a while.

I think there are focal lengths (or lenses) that suit different formats better than others for specific subjects ....IE some will be suited by M43, others by FF ...I want to test this out more and I may well be wrong but it is just a feeling I have after looking at particular...It is hard to describe what i mean..In any case, long live M43, long live FF!  

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