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Your camera of 2025


Deadcode

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All of you know the R5 spec. The dream camera, 8K RAW, 4K 120fps, IBIS, variND adapter. The A7s III expectations are raising.

It's easy to say "i want this feature to buy that camera today, or i wait for for the mark II"

It's much harder to perdict what will be the killer feature in 5 years from now. And you have to develop the camera of 2025 now in 2020.

 

What will be your dream camera of 2025? 

 

By 2023 8K 60 fps raw will be "meh", gimbal like IBIS is the key? (FX9) Or 16EV+ DR? (C300 Mk III)

16K 120fps RAW + dolly like EIS + 20EV DR  fullframe for 1500 eur are really "must have" features of 2025, or we reached a necessity wall with the R5?

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The way things are going MY camera of 2025 will either be another A7s mark 1 or i get to play with Ansel Adams' camera as he shows me how to use it! I would just like an A7s type low light sensor

XH1 style body XT4 internal spec XT4 battery Err...struggling now. I don’t need or want any more than the above. Maybe a full-frame sensor that is a lowlight monster topping out at

Actually, what I  REALLY need in a camera is enough AI in it to warn me when the shot I am framing up looks like hot trash...

50 minutes ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Probably something with a lot of AI in it / in-camera processing will be the next big thing in camera development, if I were to bet.

For my particular needs, more usable dynamic range is always a priority.

We can see fake dof with phones, iPhone HDR blending is sick. Both needs a lot of improvement, but your cinema camera will be your smartphone by 2025? 

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A camera with

  • at least an APS-C/s35mm or better a full frame sensor,
  • compressed internally recorded RAW (on the level of REDCode or CinemaDNG, not pseudo-RAW like BRAW or RAW without RAW controls like ProRes RAW)
  • plus 10bit Log in a high-quality codec 
  • a full, manufacturer-supported workflow for color space transformation and ACES of the RAW and Log material
  • good sensor stabilization
  • good video autofocus
  • compact form factor (not bigger than a typical DSLR/mirrorless)
  • solid build  (better than Blackmagics Pocket 4K/6K)
  • large swivel display with touchscreen and touchscreen focus
  • touchscreen menu system like Blackmagic's (instead of 1990s-style camera menus)
  • high-quality internal audio recording (24bit or better 32bit float) obsoleting an external recorder for most tasks
  • timecode support (via Tentacle Sync and similar systems)
  • USB-C webcam support + smartphone monitoring
  • USB-C charging and external powering
  • Sony NP-F batteries
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43 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

We can see fake dof with phones, iPhone HDR blending is sick. Both needs a lot of improvement, but your cinema camera will be your smartphone by 2025? 

Hmmm... I think there will be a lot of what we find in smartphones improved upon and built in to cameras... Don't know if this is going to extend to the major players (RED, ARRI, etc.,) but since Sony has always tried to put a lot of tech into their cameras, wouldn't be surprised to see them sort of leading the way on this.

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51 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

A camera with

  • at least an APS-C/s35mm or better a full frame sensor,
  • compressed internally recorded RAW (on the level of REDCode or CinemaDNG, not pseudo-RAW like BRAW or RAW without RAW controls like ProRes RAW)
  • plus 10bit Log in a high-quality codec 
  • a full, manufacturer-supported workflow for color space transformation and ACES of the RAW and Log material
  • good sensor stabilization
  • good video autofocus
  • compact form factor (not bigger than a typical DSLR/mirrorless)
  • solid build  (better than Blackmagics Pocket 4K/6K)
  • large swivel display with touchscreen and touchscreen focus
  • touchscreen menu system like Blackmagic's (instead of 1990s-style camera menus)
  • high-quality internal audio recording (24bit or better 32bit float) obsoleting an external recorder for most tasks
  • timecode support (via Tentacle Sync and similar systems)
  • USB-C webcam support + smartphone monitoring
  • USB-C charging and external powering
  • Sony NP-F batteries

We are talking about 2025 spec not 2020.

Internal ProRes in 2025? You want to edit huge files on a 2015 laptop in 2025? H.266 is the future.

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Let me rewind the time to 2015 April:

- A7s just announced, clean ISO6400?! 4K with external recorder?

- GH4 is the 4K king, no IBIS, VLog-L is not announced yet! (2015 sep)

- A7 II with IBIS woah!

- 5D Mark III is flying with RAW recording

What everyone want: RAW (still persist :D), fullframe look (no speedboosters yet for APSC!), LOG, 4K, 1080 HFR. Noone talking about IBIS or AF

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19 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

Let me rewind the time to 2015 April:

Yes, 5 years is not really that long ago. 
Won't be a RADICAL leap forward in another 5 years. 
Assuming we see the Panasonic GH6 within the next year, then by 2025 we'll have the GH7 as the "current cutting edge model". 

What does that mean? Probably the GH7 will have 8K (but perhaps only 30fps 8bit) but will have the lowlight performance of a GH5S, and will have no crop 4K 120fps 10bit, with finally good AF? Might have some innovations with the body, such as 2x DIN connectors? (they're like "Mini BNC". One DIN for Timecode, and the other DIN for an independent "mini SDI" video output. Independent outputs, so you could make it clean, or with info overlayed, or with a LUT applied or not, all completely independent to what you're monitoring over the full size HDMI output. An important feature for professional sets)

There will be a  Panasonic "DMW-XLR2" as well, you'll have 2x full size XLR with 2x full size BNC connectors (one for monitoring, one for TC I/O), and a lemo connector too for passing DC power through. The GH7 will have 32bit audio recording as an option. There will also be a GH7S that gives us everything the GH7 has but no 8K (however its 4K will be even better lowlight than the GH7/GH5S is/was), but the GH7S keeps the IBIS, and does have eND. 

A Panasonic GH7S /  Panasonic DMW-XLR2 would be a dreamy combo, while still (I hope!) not being a totally unreasonably unrealistic scenario to hope for by 20205.

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The way things are going MY camera of 2025 will either be another A7s mark 1 or i get to play with Ansel Adams' camera as he shows me how to use it!

I would just like an A7s type low light sensor with PDAF and built in NDs, by then 4k 24/25/30p will probably be what i am using and all i need.

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In 2025 my camera will head out to work according to whatever I've programmed it to do with whatever program I use to do that. My camera will the edit the footage perfectly so that my clients (mainly bots) can like me to fuck on whatever social network dominates in 2025. I, hopefully, will be somewhere nice and green with my family. My only connection with technology will be a message that says my client has paid me.

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, 5 years is not really that long ago. 
Won't be a RADICAL leap forward in another 5 years. 
Assuming we see the Panasonic GH6 within the next year, then by 2025 we'll have the GH7 as the "current cutting edge model". 

What does that mean? Probably the GH7 will have 8K (but perhaps only 30fps 8bit) but will have the lowlight performance of a GH5S, and will have no crop 4K 120fps 10bit, with finally good AF? Might have some innovations with the body, such as 2x DIN connectors? (they're like "Mini BNC". One DIN for Timecode, and the other DIN for an independent "mini SDI" video output. Independent outputs, so you could make it clean, or with info overlayed, or with a LUT applied or not, all completely independent to what you're monitoring over the full size HDMI output. An important feature for professional sets)

There will be a  Panasonic "DMW-XLR2" as well, you'll have 2x full size XLR with 2x full size BNC connectors (one for monitoring, one for TC I/O), and a lemo connector too for passing DC power through. The GH7 will have 32bit audio recording as an option. There will also be a GH7S that gives us everything the GH7 has but no 8K (however its 4K will be even better lowlight than the GH7/GH5S is/was), but the GH7S keeps the IBIS, and does have eND. 

A Panasonic GH7S /  Panasonic DMW-XLR2 would be a dreamy combo, while still (I hope!) not being a totally unreasonably unrealistic scenario to hope for by 20205.

Can we just have the super GH6 (like your GH7/S) with the DMW-XLR2 in 2021???  I have to say I really like the DMW-XLR with the GH5/S and if they could improve it, well that'd be a huge bonus.

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2025 Camera wish list:

I would like a mirrorless short flange distance body with, 16k organic APS-C sensor with on sensor per pixel sensitivity adjustment for maximum dynamic range and on sensor ND. Stabilized sensor with built in gyroscopic motion tracking and with time of flight autofocus, that also communicates with the zoom servo to determine the equivalent focal length to assist with stabilization.  Excellent low light performance due to the organic sensor. 2 x 32-bit XLR mic preamps with phantom power. Lossless compressed RAW like recording. Time code and redundant recording media.

2025 Camera possibility:

What I would buy is an 8k APS-C organic sensor based product with very low noise, very high dynamic range, on sensor stabilization with on sensor ND in a mirrorless body. Everything else can be added...

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5 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Can we just have the super GH6 (like your GH7/S) with the DMW-XLR2 in 2021??? 

I don't think Panasonic will give us all of that this year or in early 2021. 

Don't think the GH6 will have 8K, not even in 8bit. 
(but happy to be proved wrong!)


Not unless Panasonic does the opposite approach to the GH5S variant, and gives us the "GH6R" with 8K as a sister camera to accompany the mainstream GH6. (and skip an entire generation entirely, and not offer a GH6S until the GH7 series comes around. This could be a smart approach, alternating between a GHxR and a GHxS for each generation, but never both at the same time)

 

5 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I have to say I really like the DMW-XLR with the GH5/S and if they could improve it, well that'd be a huge bonus.


I'd really like the next DMW-XLR to go an extra step beyond with extra I/O than just having XLR inputs. And having 2x BNC for TC I/O & an independent SDI output would be perfect for many folks wanting to rig up a GHx camera in a more professional setting! Gives us a built in eND too and we'll all be as happy as a pig in sh*t.

 

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10 hours ago, Mark Romero 2 said:

Probably something with a lot of AI in it / in-camera processing will be the next big thing in camera development, if I were to bet.

For my particular needs, more usable dynamic range is always a priority.

More DR would be great.

I'm watching lots of YouTube and even on things that were only uploaded at 1080 or less (which are heavily compressed by YT) I can always tell when they've used a nice camera because outdoor scenes in full sunlight look natural and the light looks soft whilst still not being diffused, giving great skin tones and a natural rendering of DR.

RAW 1080 with high DR and nice colours beats 4K, 6K, or 8K+ when the lighting becomes difficult.

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

A Panasonic GH7S /  Panasonic DMW-XLR2 would be a dreamy combo, while still (I hope!) not being a totally unreasonably unrealistic scenario to hope for by 20205.

the year 20205??  by then my ultimate camera system will be 100K+ RAW, full EMF bandwidth, 20+ stops of DR, sensor modules for each eye, a processor that uses AI to build a current and predictive 4D model around me, with all the usual AR augmentation...  and they should look completely natural, and I should be able to change the colour of my eyes to suit my outfit.  anything less and you're a sucker!

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