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Your camera of 2025


Deadcode
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The tech for an ideal cameras is out there for me it just needs to be combined. 

Arri color

Arri Dynamic range 

Canon PDAF

Sony lowlight 

RED or BM RAW

Just advance things so all that tech can be put in a small body say like an Osmo pocket(could be bigger but you get the idea) with a nice built in ff 28-70 2.8 equivalent, oh yeah with 4k 120fps and 2k up to 240fps

😄😄😄

 

 

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1 hour ago, kye said:

the year 20205??  by then my ultimate camera system will be 100K+ RAW, full EMF bandwidth, 20+ stops of DR, sensor modules for each eye, a processor that uses AI to build a current and predictive 4D model around me, with all the usual AR augmentation...  and they should look completely natural, and I should be able to change the colour of my eyes to suit my outfit.  anything less and you're a sucker!

Whoops! What a typo. 

Honestly I'd be happy to see ANY camera in 20205! As I'd be stoked to simply still be alive. 

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3 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

The tech for an ideal cameras is out there for me it just needs to be combined. 

Arri color

Arri Dynamic range 

Canon PDAF

Sony lowlight 

RED or BM RAW

Just advance things so all that tech can be put in a small body say like an Osmo pocket(could be bigger but you get the idea) with a nice built in ff 28-70 2.8 equivalent, oh yeah with 4k 120fps and 2k up to 240fps

😄😄😄

 

 

So like a C500 Mk 2?

Or an R5?

Come on guys, you just writing spec that are mostly exist today. (except Kye :P)

5 years from now these spec are really appealing to you? i mean you would spend money 5 years from now on camera with 2020 spec?

On different aspect: why would not everyone of you rush to buy the 5 years old dream camera the A7s mk I or GH4? for 2015 both had insane spec! And it cost only 800-900 eur (500 or less for GH4) nowdays...

So the R5 for example in 2025 will probably be obsolete.

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well i'd be happy if i could uninstall 2020 and reinstall it as my version has a virus 😉 , Actually i'll be happy to make it through 2020. For me 2025 is way to far off to worry or speculate about, however bm, if your listening make a full frame with a flippy screen and internal nd and throw in some other goodness and i'll start saving 😀

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13 hours ago, Deadcode said:

We are talking about 2025 spec not 2020.

Internal ProRes in 2025? You want to edit huge files on a 2015 laptop in 2025? H.266 is the future.

Please show me a single camera that can do in 2020 what I listed...  Btw., I wrote nothing about internal ProRes.

And I wouldn't expect too much innovation by 2025 - we are facing a time of camera manufacturers going out of business, slower product cycles and higher prices, after years of a dramatically shrinking market, now the Corona crisis, and technological innovations (such as AI and last-generation chips) no longer landing in classical cameras. 

Here's my list again:

  • at least an APS-C/s35mm or better a full frame sensor,
  • compressed internally recorded RAW (on the level of REDCode or CinemaDNG, not pseudo-RAW like BRAW or RAW without RAW controls like ProRes RAW)
  • plus 10bit Log in a high-quality codec 
  • a full, manufacturer-supported workflow for color space transformation and ACES of the RAW and Log material
  • good sensor stabilization
  • good video autofocus
  • compact form factor (not bigger than a typical DSLR/mirrorless)
  • solid build  (better than Blackmagics Pocket 4K/6K)
  • large swivel display with touchscreen and touchscreen focus
  • touchscreen menu system like Blackmagic's (instead of 1990s-style camera menus)
  • high-quality internal audio recording (24bit or better 32bit float) obsoleting an external recorder for most tasks
  • timecode support (via Tentacle Sync and similar systems)
  • USB-C webcam support + smartphone monitoring
  • USB-C charging and external powering
  • Sony NP-F batteries
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4 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

Please show me a single camera that can do in 2020 what I listed...  Btw., I wrote nothing about internal ProRes.

And I wouldn't expect too much innovation by 2025 - we are facing a time of camera manufacturers going out of business, slower product cycles and higher prices, after years of a dramatically shrinking market, now the Corona crisis, and technological innovations (such as AI and last-generation chips) no longer landing in classical cameras. 

Here's my list again:

  • at least an APS-C/s35mm or better a full frame sensor,
  • compressed internally recorded RAW (on the level of REDCode or CinemaDNG, not pseudo-RAW like BRAW or RAW without RAW controls like ProRes RAW)
  • plus 10bit Log in a high-quality codec 
  • a full, manufacturer-supported workflow for color space transformation and ACES of the RAW and Log material
  • good sensor stabilization
  • good video autofocus
  • compact form factor (not bigger than a typical DSLR/mirrorless)
  • solid build  (better than Blackmagics Pocket 4K/6K)
  • large swivel display with touchscreen and touchscreen focus
  • touchscreen menu system like Blackmagic's (instead of 1990s-style camera menus)
  • high-quality internal audio recording (24bit or better 32bit float) obsoleting an external recorder for most tasks
  • timecode support (via Tentacle Sync and similar systems)
  • USB-C webcam support + smartphone monitoring
  • USB-C charging and external powering
  • Sony NP-F batteries

These feature list is appealing for todays standard. 

And C500 Mk II checks most requirements today. R5 too...

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Here are my perdictions:

A phone or phone like camera with a good quality sensors.

Nice low light thanks to TNR, huge DR thanks to multi exposure recording.

I want to:

- choose the focal length in post

- choose the amount of DOF and DOF type in post (Vazen 40 T2 if i want, Sigma 85 1.4 if i want)

- one - click - grade = Arri look if i want, Transformers look if i want

- i want to choose the amount of hypersmooth 5.0 stabilization in post on the fly

While recording, i dont want to deal with:

- framing

- exposure, WB

- AF

 

 

So i want to record and decide what i want in post.

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1 hour ago, Deadcode said:

These feature list is appealing for todays standard. 

And C500 Mk II checks most requirements today. R5 too...

No. 

C500 fails doesn't have a compact form factor ("not bigger than a typical DSLR/mirrorless"), so it fails to meet a crucial criterium. And this forum isn't about C500 class cameras anyway, the C500 is a $16,000 camera.

The R5 doesn't have high-quality audio recording, and at the moment is only a camera on paper about whose practical performance and limitations we don't know anything yet....

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15 minutes ago, rawshooter said:

No. 

C500 fails doesn't have a compact form factor ("not bigger than a typical DSLR/mirrorless"), so it fails to meet a crucial criterium. And this forum isn't about C500 class cameras anyway, the C500 is a $16,000 camera.

The R5 doesn't have high-quality audio recording, and at the moment is only a camera on paper about whose practical performance and limitations we don't know anything yet....

You dont really get the point of the topic do ya? 😄

 

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A smartphone with a 1/2 - 1 inch sensor + a M43 sensor, that shoots 12-bit compressed RAW video or ProRes, along with 4k at 120fps, does 24-48MP photos in 14-bit RAW, with 20fps burst photos, with modular accessories for recording 32-bit sound (dual sound on something the size of the InstaMic). 

It could be 3 times as thick as a present smartphone, but it should have a large battery, and physical buttons for manual operations (apart from a touchscreen). Also multiple mounting and transfer options. 

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3 hours ago, Deadcode said:

So like a C500 Mk 2?

Or an R5?

Come on guys, you just writing spec that are mostly exist today. (except Kye :P)

5 years from now these spec are really appealing to you? i mean you would spend money 5 years from now on camera with 2020 spec?

On different aspect: why would not everyone of you rush to buy the 5 years old dream camera the A7s mk I or GH4? for 2015 both had insane spec! And it cost only 800-900 eur (500 or less for GH4) nowdays...

So the R5 for example in 2025 will probably be obsolete.

Are you kidding ? The C500 mk2 doesn’t come close to the A7s in low light, doesn’t have arri dynamic range, doesn’t have arri color, doesn’t have 4k 120p, no compressed Raw and is a huge camera certainly not Osmo size... Again at some point you hit a law of diminishing returns, we aren’t there yet though.

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3 hours ago, rawshooter said:

And I wouldn't expect too much innovation by 2025 - we are facing a time of camera manufacturers going out of business, slower product cycles and higher prices, after years of a dramatically shrinking market, now the Corona crisis, and technological innovations (such as AI and last-generation chips) no longer landing in classical cameras. 

Another reason to expect less by 2025, is that in general the rate of progressing is feels like it is tailing off. 
Look at how much computers have advanced from 2016 to 2020, vs 2001 to 2005. Or how much DSLRs improved from 2001 to 2005? Compared to the last five years. 
 

4 hours ago, Deadcode said:

5 years from now these spec are really appealing to you? i mean you would spend money 5 years from now on camera with 2020 spec?

On different aspect: why would not everyone of you rush to buy the 5 years old dream camera the A7s mk I or GH4? for 2015 both had insane spec! And it cost only 800-900 eur (500 or less for GH4) nowdays...

Yes, sometimes we don't appreciate just how good we've got it now! Many people if they wrote their reasonable "dream camera" 5yrs ago would have most of these specs by today, and easily most of us who wrote it down 10yrs ago would have those specs achieved by 2020!

 

3 hours ago, rawshooter said:
  • timecode support (via Tentacle Sync and similar systems)

Even via Bluetooth like Timecode Systems Ltd does would be a good second best option.

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To put things into perspective digital only caught up to feel (arguably) since the Arri Alexa came out 2010. No other company has really been able to top Arri in terms of color reproduction and dynamic range to this day. 

I'd say probably the best overall camera on the market is the C300 MK3 

and even that doesn't have the convenient compressed RAW that Black magic or Red have, it has less dynamic range than an Arri (significantly less in the highlights), not as good color reproduction, and is a relatively large camera. 

It has auto focus going for it and is definitely smaller and more ergonomic than a rigged up Arri and of course way less expensive. But again its not checking all the boxes I'd want. I'd also say most of the stuff I want or need has been around for years just not all in one small package. I'd still say film is superior if you have the money and resources. 

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14 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, sometimes we don't appreciate just how good we've got it now! Many people if they wrote their reasonable "dream camera" 5yrs ago would have most of these specs by today, and easily most of us who wrote it down 10yrs ago would have those specs achieved by 2020!

This is the point of this topic.

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12 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

I don't know, the Arri Alexa came out 10 years ago and I'd probably still rather own that than any other camera at its price point.... 

It's not easy to vlog on an Arri.

Sure it has nice IQ, but really that's the only thing that matters? (however you can match a BMPCC4K easily...)

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50 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

It's not easy to vlog on an Arri.

Sure it has nice IQ, but really that's the only thing that matters? (however you can match a BMPCC4K easily...)

I don't think its really that easy to match a Pocket 4k or any other camera. Canon comes close color wise but even they have some funky stuff going on. 

Sure its not a vlogging camera. However throw the thing on your shoulder and you'll get great images. There is almost no rolling shutter. 

Certainly for vlogging some type of software stabilization would be ideal. Would need to be super advanced though, doubt anything will come close by 2025. Something like an Osmo pocket but with a larger sensor seems more attainable. But vlogging isn't really my thing. 

But again I think what I asked for is a pretty tall order. 

Arri Alexa image in an DJI osmo body with canon PDAF, with high frame rates, resolutions, and usable 25,000 iso image. If that is available in 2025 I promise I won't be complaining one bit lol. 
 

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We're really only talking about 2 generations (max) beyond what's currently available or the a7s3 finally being released, so changes will be incremental.

Some of what I hope to see on cutting edge hybrids in the next few years

  • Global shutter
  • E-ND
  • Larger LCD's with a more phone-like experience - this is where current cameras really lag behind so many other things, Sony's horseshit little LCD on a $4500 camera is a prime example.

The user experience is something all cameras can improve on, I would hope more would be invested in that area instead of fattening the spec sheet, but a fully functional 4-5" OLED touchscreen doesn't grab headlines like raw video.

Chris

 

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