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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS R5 8K monster official topic

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17 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

the best thing for me about Canon's great awakening is that hopefully they will get all the basics right...

Exactly this. Their advancement into 8K processing is the overkill needed behind the scenes to cover the basics of its 4K output. This together with improvements on the toe-dipping R and Canon’s need to D-Day the competition, they may finally be ready to release the balanced feature set that for them does just enough (holding back the xlr audio and connectivity features of the cinema line) whilst we get all the camera we’ll ever need, at least for the next four years... Proof is in the pudding, of course, and we’ll have to pay through the nose for it, but I’m sure I’ll be relieved to finally get my money’s worth. After all the crippling, compromises and workarounds - across all the manufacturers - of the last four years, paying top dollar for a top product is the one compromise I’ll be happy to make, and I surely won’t be alone in thinking that.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

It’s hard to imagine how 8K won’t be crippled. It’ll leapfrog the c500 II? 

No, the key for the R5/R6’s viability is not omitting the features that were missing in the past: internal recording of pro codecs, IBIS, full frame, acceptable rolling shutter. 

 

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This is exciting but I’m checking my expectations at the door. This is Canon. There is almost always a deal breaker.

I just can’t bring myself to believe The R5 will have useable specs above and beyond their LATEST 16K Cinema EOS camera.

It sure looks to me that the IBIS mechanism is in the lens and they’re doing some kind of lens OIS and EIS to achieve the amazing 8 stops. Depending on how they implement it we could be seeing a large crop for the EIS.

This theory makes even more sense when you see it’s like only 5 stops and then jumps to 8 stops with the R5. So this could mean:

1. New, expensive OIS lenses 

or...

2. Requires EIS to achieve the 8 stops so requires a massive crop and only works in 1080p modes.

Rolling shutter has always been a problem. If it has rolling shutter like the EOS R’s 4K, then it’s essential useless (not that 8K is important for me).

Internal RAW, if like the 1DX3, with it’s insanely impractical 2.5Gbps bitrate makes that practically useless for me as well.

I am exciting for possible super clean 4K recording (hopefully up to 60p and without the fun house rolling shutter) that has the canon image mojo and DPAF with eye tracking.

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This could very well be a case of irrational exuberance. Take a look at the camera. We know that Panasonic required a vent on the back of their S1H to do 6k. Look at most cinema cameras that do 6k or 8k. Fans are usually a must unless you have an exceptional heat sink and w/o an EVF. Add an EVF to a camera and you have lots of heat. Try doing 8k for any extended length and you'll have a shitload more of heat. Canon's 1DX Mark III is capable of up to 2,600 Mbs but has a body the size of a 1969 Buick and no EVF. How is Canon dissipating heat on this smaller camera with 8k capability?

I see forums littered with phrases like "Canon take my money!" Really? Not only have we not seen the full specs. No one has been able to test the camera.

Something seems fishy to me.

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32 minutes ago, Cubanito said:

Here is my imagined 45 mp Canon R5 CMOS sensor

Imagined 45 mp Canon R5 CMOS sensor.jpg

Curb you enthusiasm - not only do you need additional pixels for EIS, you need additional CPU power and lots of it. There is no way Canon could handle that in a weather-sealed mirroless body.

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6 minutes ago, ajay said:

This could very well be a case of irrational exuberance. Take a look at the camera. We know that Panasonic required a vent on the back of their S1H to do 6k. Look at most cinema cameras that do 6k or 8k. Fans are usually a must unless you have an exceptional heat sink and w/o an EVF. Add an EVF to a camera and you have lots of heat. Try doing 8k for any extended length and you'll have a shitload more of heat. Canon's 1DX Mark III is capable of up to 2,600 Mbs but has a body the size of a 1969 Buick and no EVF. How is Canon dissipating heat on this smaller camera with 8k capability?

I see forums littered with phrases like "Canon take my money!" Really? Not only have we not seen the full specs. No one has been able to test the camera.

Something seems fishy to me.

All of this. Looking to the S1H as the most comparable camera on the market - I don't see how Canon could possible leapfrog Panasonic in such a dramatic way. My intuition tells me the only way Canon can achieve these specs is to limit recording times, crop, disable AF in certain modes, or all of the above. Still, I'm cautiously optimistic. 

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From the press text: "The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization) and when used in conjunction with the extremely effective in-lens stabilization (IS), will allow photographers to handhold the camera in light levels not previously imagined."

It is confirmed that it is real, mechanical IBIS. So, no need to worry there.

Also, 8-bit 420 8k (likely) is not even close to being better than 6k 12-bit, 422 raw (C500II), so this camera does not really tread on any toes. 

--

I do think Canon has now realized that there are a lot of people who like having the same manufacturer from A-Cam to B-Cam to C-Cam that can achieve similar specs and IQ. So the C500 II (and future C300 III) will only gain from a strong Canon mirrorless lineup. I've been using Panasonic (and not Canon) for the past 2-3 years because I needed 10-bit 4k for both A-Cam and gimbal cam (EVA-1 and GH5). But, prefer Canon, so once they get an RF-mount cinema camera out and THIS camera, I'll be back.

--

What the R5 MUST have is 10-bit 422 4k internally up to 60fps. The S1H does it, the A7sIII will do it, the GH6 will do much more. If it doesn't have a solid 10-bit 422 codec in 4K with NO CROP, then all the 8k is for naught and I'd rather have an S1H or Fuji XT3/XT4. 

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14 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

It sure looks to me that the IBIS mechanism is in the lens and they’re doing some kind of lens OIS and EIS to achieve the amazing 8 stops. Depending on how they implement it we could be seeing a large crop for the EIS.

By definition IBIS is "In Body". Here is the official development announcement section:

The EOS R5 will be the first Canon camera equipped with IBIS (In Body Image Stabilization) and when used in conjunction with the extremely effective in-lens stabilization (IS), will allow photographers to handhold the camera in light levels not previously imagined.

Lens OIS + EIS was what they were already doing previously. R5 is actual real mechanical IBIS.

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5 hours ago, Django said:

A7S3 Dev Team: Ok, back to the drawing boards folks.

Seriously, I don't see how Sony or anyone is going to compete with this in the near future.

I'm just glad I stuck with them throughout the years (which will be regarded as the 'dark ages' lol).

 

4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Seems Canon is keeping some stuff close to their chest to avoid Sony being able to outgun with A7S III.

 

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

X-T4 "dead to me"

A7S III has to "step over FX line"

Yep, it's not looking good for the competition.

The brand name Canon and lure of 8K will be too much for many people, but the best thing for me about Canon's great awakening is that hopefully they will get all the basics right... Like full frame 10bit 4K with no crop, great colour science, the classic cinematic 1D C look in C-LOG, Dual Pixel AF and very good IBIS, all in a nice mirrorless body which has a much better and more "pro" control layout compared to the silly toy one that came before it.

 

I think that we are headed for a massive disappointment. There is absolutely no reliable info on this camera and we already expect that a small canon body will leap frog the entire competition? It makes zero sense, even the S1H with its brick size and embedded fan can't do crop-less 4k60. How would Canon manage to do 8k24 in a Rebel/R type body without heating issues after behind being for so many years? As for ProRes, this is wishful thinking as someone mentioned earlier. It looks like some sort of limited 8K "for the sticker" on the box and then massive 4k crop or pixel binning/line skipping output. But I hope to be proven wrong!!!

Finally, I don't think that Sony needs to wait for the official Canon announcement to figure out what they plan to do. Look how all the major brands (Pana, Canon, Nikon) came out with FF mirror-less camera last year at the exact same time. They all have similar supply chain and providers, they do business intelligence and know what the competition is going to do (more or less). The Z and R release were both underwhelming. They all came out with slow lenses and a few useless super wide and overpriced options for the show before releasing f/2.8 glasses later on.
 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, OliKMIA said:

There is absolutely no reliable info on this camera ... How would Canon manage to do 8k24 in a small body without heating issues after behind being for so many years?

well canon officially announced that it will shoot 8k, so that's reliable at least. Hopefully it will be at least 24p. As far as i can see, there is no official word about whether it has 4k60 or bit depth or chroma subsampling, but i think we should assume 8 bit 420 for 8k

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16 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

well canon officially announced that it will shoot 8k, so that's reliable at least. Hopefully it will be at least 24p. As far as i can see, there is no official word about whether it has 4k60 or bit depth or chroma subsampling, but i think we should assume 8 bit 420 for 8k

 

14 minutes ago, Django said:

@OliKMIA Dude, you didn't get the memo? It's official, Canon is bringing the first 8K MILC to the market. Brace yourself: it's happening.

I get that some sort of 8K is coming, I also see the track record of this company and the physical reality of 8K. Plus, I note that more advanced companies are having issues to do high res video on FF sensors. Finally I can see the size of the body in relation to a 24-105 f/4 lens.

Now, if we get some sort of "useless" 8k (eg. no AF, limited burst, etc), I don't think that it will massively change the game for video people like us. I'd rather have good 4k60 with all the nice codec and features (peaking, zebra, etc.) than limited 8k for the sake of it. I have this bad feeling that we are falling for a marketing trap when the real stuffs that matter are completely unknown. That being said, it seems to be a solid camera on the still side.
 

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Just now, OliKMIA said:

 

I get that some sort of 8K is coming, I also see the track record of this company and the physical reality of 8K. Plus, I note that more advanced companies are having issues to do high res video on FF sensors. Finally I can see the size of the body in relation to a 24-105 f/4 lens.

Now, if we get some sort of "useless" 8k (eg. no AF, limited burst, etc), I don't think that it will massively change the game for video people like us. I'd rather have good 4k60 with all the nice codec and features (peaking, zebra, etc.) than limited 8k for the sake of it. I have this bad feeling that we are falling for a marketing trap when the real stuffs that matter are completely unknown. That being said, it seems to be a solid camera on the still side.
 

Oh i completely agree. Hence my dry "hopefully it's 24 fps." But, to be fair, Z Cam is doing 8K in a similar size body, although they use the aluminum outer body as a heatsink which Canon can't do in a handheld, rubber grip design. But having 8k24 continuous for a reasonable number of minutes is within technological reason.

I'd rather have 4k60 than 8k as well. But honestly I can do without AF, IBIS, peaking, zebras altogether. Burst only wouldn't be great, but I'd probably shoot 4k most of the time anyway, and an added 8k burst or special purpose wouldn't hurt anything.

Then again, it'll probably be out of my budget anyway! That's what Fuji has against the Canon 8K monster :)

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2 minutes ago, OliKMIA said:

 

I get that some sort of 8K is coming, I also see the track record of this company and the physical reality of 8K. Plus, I note that more advanced companies are having issues to do high res FF sensors. Finally I can see the size of the body in relation to a 24-105 f/4 lens.

Now, if we get some sort of "useless" 8k (eg. no AF, limited burst, etc), I don't think that it will massively change the game for video people like us. I'd rather have good 4k60 with all the nice codec and features (peaking, zebra, etc.) than limited 8k for the sake of it. I have this bad feeling that we are falling for a marketing trap when the real stuffs that matter are completely unknown. That being said, it seems to be a solid camera on the still side.
 

It's funny Canon always seems to be on the "Guilty until proven innocent" side. I mean I know it's hard to swallow for some because Canon has had a poor rep in the past, but please take a look at the 1DX3 specs. 

To me it's a clear indicator Canon have changed strategies, and seriously upped the ante when it comes to video specs.

Pretty sure they're on a mission to sweep up the hybrid floor and take back their lead position.

In any case, this seems a solid camera on both photo & video side even with the unknowns .

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7 minutes ago, Django said:

It's funny Canon always seems to be on the "Guilty until proven innocent" side. I mean I know it's hard to swallow for some because Canon has had a poor rep in the past, but please take a look at the 1DX3 specs. 

To me it's a clear indicator Canon have changed strategies, and seriously upped the ante when it comes to video specs.

Pretty sure they're on a mission to sweep up the hybrid floor and take back their lead position.

In any case, this seems a solid camera on both photo & video side even with the unknowns .

True, it's all about this company track record. The 1DX3 is a huge body compared to this R5, easier to manage thermal dissipation on this, and I see it more as a B-cam option for the C500mk2.

Also, I'm not anti-canon. All my still cameras are Canon and I recently purchased a C200 (great cam, the 8 bits footage is solid). If Canon delivers good video specs on the R5, I'll get one or two for sure.

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4 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

We were all expecting a lot more info than the one page press release that's for sure.

Seems Canon is keeping some stuff close to their chest to avoid Sony being able to outgun with A7S III.

And why the development announcement 6 months before the camera is launched - the answer is that they want to dampen sales of the Sony A7S III and Fuji X-T4 which are both now imminent.

There are signs there was also a bit of a waiting game at Sony. They wanted to see what Canon had planned before pushing the button on the A7S III.

I see the EOS R5 as a competitor not just to the A7S III but to the A7R IV and successor too.

Sony is in trouble here. They are going to see quite a few ex-Canon users leave and go back home.

It will depend on how invested they were in E-mount glass. If they all kept their EF lenses and used adapters, Sony are going to see a big fall off.

Panasonic need to raise to the game as well, get autofocus sorted out (and with the MC-21 not just their own lenses) as a matter of urgency.

I have 0 EF, fully invested in E mount but I could not care less about that. It takes 5min to put an ad online and sell lenses. 
 

If they have at least clean 4K60 10 bit no crop in that EOS R5, I am switching back to Canon. 

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13 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

If they have at least clean 4K60 10 bit no crop in that EOS R5, I am switching back to Canon. 

Canon if your reading...this is your demographic.

It seems Sony users (having switched from something else) have no problem investing to “come home”.

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There's a good chance. Precedence in the 1DXIII, which oversamples the 5.5K sensor to 4K 10-bit 422.

8K will be heavily marketed, but likely 8-bit, 24/30, cropped, and perhaps some features disabled as in the 1DXIII.

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