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Andrew Reid

How many sales are Canon losing from enthusiasts due to video shenanigans?

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If you guys believe canon are done in the DSLR  video game, and believe other competitors offer better, why do these type of topics keep popping up every other quarter ? 

It's either people havent found what they are looking for in the dslr video format and I doubt they ever will..

Canons will always be a stills camera first and they wot change that ethos with their DSLRs.

I use them for photography strictly. Videos is my blackmagic. 

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2 minutes ago, Dunjoye said:

If you guys believe canon are done in the DSLR  video game, and believe other competitors offer better, why do these type of topics keep popping up every other quarter ? 

It's either people havent found what they are looking for in the dslr video format and I doubt they ever will..

Canons will always be a stills camera first and they wot change that ethos with their DSLRs.

I use them for photography strictly. Videos is my blackmagic. 

Yes, Canon is still strong in still photography. However, the trend is that videos can draw much more attention than photo in today and it is not necessarily being professionally produced. Personally, I appreciate high quality still photos than average quality videos if I have choices. But the true experience is that videos are much stronger in a lot of aspect, especially in the sector of self learning in youtube. I am learning bakery through books and youtube and I should admit that latter one is more effective than still photos and descriptions on the books. 

Just imagine, 8K is coming and every still captured from video is already 30 megapixels. That's almost no need to take a still photo because every frame is already with more than enough resolution for everyday life. Of course, you may argue that still shot for commercial is necessary. It is the matter of art direct and creativity. The value and usage is different. But you can't deny the impact of video towards photography.

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Andrew, your online location is a mark for mirrorless filmmaking as Jarred was to prosumer 24p before his RED adventure. A milestone in the history of this medium. Once heard from the legend Tonino Guerra himself addressed to me and a couple of us present then, that "these Japanese cameras were the future of the cinema" [sic].

23 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Another guy who needs reminding of why EOSHD started... suddenly cost wasn't a barrier to entry any more, people could pick up a GH1 or 5D Mark II and shoot cinematic images for cheap.

Isn't that what's great about the Pocket 6K?

If the image stands up head and shoulders (even above) C200 RAW but costs FAR less, with arguably a better RAW codec (and internal ProRes) to boot... That is exciting.

Then again it's no surprise to long-time EOSHD members! I remember comparing the C300 early on (when pros were gushing over it) with the Samsung NX1 when it first came out. The 4K from the NX1 beat the shit out of the C300's image quality - yes, in terms of skintones and colour too.

You sure can shoot a documentary bare bones with some cameras more easily than others... Pick up a GH5 for instance, and you can shoot bare bones better than with a C200 thanks to the stabilisation and smaller size.

 

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On 8/31/2019 at 4:28 PM, Andrew Reid said:

Pocket 4K/6K sit in a big ecosystem of software and hardware from Blackmagic. You can't isolate the sales figures of a couple of devices as all the other stuff is important for Blackmagic, and Pocket cameras help their business profile and ecosystem.

The main point is - if all these huge companies - Sony, Blackmagic, Nikon, Panasonic, Fujfilm, etc. feel that video on mirrorless cams and under $3k is a worthwhile thing. So Canon must be shooting themselves in the foot by being the odd one out. Cinema EOS don't count. Different thing altogether.

Simple as that.

Blackmagic is not a huge company.  Not even close.

Panasonic has 273,358 employees.

Canon has 197,673 employees.

Sony has 117,300 employees.

Fujifilm has 79,000 employees.

Nikon has 25,729 employees.

Blackmagic has 372 employees.

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25 minutes ago, yoclay said:

Blackmagic is not a huge company.  Not even close.

Panasonic has 273,358 employees.

Canon has 197,673 employees.

Sony has 117,300 employees.

Fujifilm has 79,000 employees.

Nikon has 25,729 employees.

Blackmagic has 372 employees.

Are those camera/imaging division only employees? I have my doubts. Now it’s clear how blackmagic is releasing what would traditionally be $8K+ for only $2.5K. 

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34 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

Are those camera/imaging division only employees? I have my doubts. Now it’s clear how blackmagic is releasing what would traditionally be $8K+ for only $2.5K. 

Also explains why there products are littered with bugs. 

Doubt they even have a QA team over there 

1 hour ago, MochaP said:

Yes, Canon is still strong in still photography. However, the trend is that videos can draw much more attention than photo in today and it is not necessarily being professionally produced. Personally, I appreciate high quality still photos than average quality videos if I have choices. But the true experience is that videos are much stronger in a lot of aspect, especially in the sector of self learning in youtube. I am learning bakery through books and youtube and I should admit that latter one is more effective than still photos and descriptions on the books. 

Just imagine, 8K is coming and every still captured from video is already 30 megapixels. That's almost no need to take a still photo because every frame is already with more than enough resolution for everyday life. Of course, you may argue that still shot for commercial is necessary. It is the matter of art direct and creativity. The value and usage is different. But you can't deny the impact of video towards photography.

The way people go on like canon cameras shoots .3gp 240p quality. Never understood people who's say canon footage is unusable..

Dont get me wrong there are other competitors pushing the boundaries for video, most vlog content I come across on YouTube are mostly shot on canon. This dslr video market is smaller and more fickle than we think.. 

 

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It's obviously not a scientific poll, or based on sales figures, but just looking at YouTube these days is pretty telling: Sony and Panasonic have really taken over the enthusiast video market, at least in North America. 

Part of it is how aggressive they were, particularly Sony, in targeting those users. The other part though is that they were far more competitive in not only features but price. The G7 is still popular with YouTubers and low budget shooters, even after 4 years. It's still hard to beat when it comes to features and price. For the advanced shooters you then had the G85 and GH5, which both are still excellent values. The A6300, A6500, and the A7iii were of course all big releases for the YouTube and enthusiast filmmakers, too. 

I think you can really trace Canon losing their dominance in that space to how slow they were to roll out 4K in their lower end cameras. They were so late to the party, and when they arrived they crippled the auto focus. By that point Panasonic and Sony had already unleashed affordable 4K cameras for people to buy. I think a lot of the people that bought the G7 and the A6300 would've gone with the latest Rebel or EOS M if they'd had 4K offerings, even with crippled auto focus. Why go the Canon route though when you could spend the same amount, or less, and get a 4K capable camera? 

Canon is Canon. The name will always carry weight with average consumers and top level professionals, but I think they've lost the enthusiast and lower budget market that they pretty much created. Each move to cripple things only make it worse. It's not what I'd be doing if I were them but what can ya do? 

32 minutes ago, Dunjoye said:

most vlog content I come across on YouTube are mostly shot on canon. This dslr video market is smaller and more fickle than we think.. 

I have the exact opposite experience. Outside of the bigger channels that can afford higher end Canon cameras, or who have a relationship with Canon, Sony is by and far more popular. It's not even remotely close. 

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29 minutes ago, Dunjoye said:

Also explains why there products are littered with bugs. 

Doubt they even have a QA team over there

I love BM and still find the BMMCC to have one of the nicest images but every BM camera I’ve ever owned has come with its own set of headaches. And anyone who has ever shot with a BM camera, should understand why they’re able to undercut the major manufacturers. 

 

31 minutes ago, Dunjoye said:

The way people go on like canon cameras shoots .3gp 240p quality. Never understood people who's say canon footage is unusable..

Dont get me wrong there are other competitors pushing the boundaries for video, most vlog content I come across on YouTube are mostly shot on canon. This dslr video market is smaller and more fickle than we think.. 

Exactly. I think people complain about Canon on forums for two reasons... they’re either Sony/Panasonic fanboys or they just want to shoot with a Canon camera but the company makes it too difficult sometimes to justify the purchase.

But any shooter should be able to make t2i footage shine if they had to.

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8 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

I mean it's funny, because when you look at all the channels that have "DSLR" in their names almost all of them now shoot on Sony or Panasonic. 

It’s no surprise really. Canon had no reason to upgrade their consumer cameras with 4K. Sony and Panasonic had a vested need for 4K material. In the end, the demand for 4K won and Canon was left behind. Back in the 80s, Canon gambled with AF and it helped them, this time... DPAF hasn’t been enough... no matter how good it is.

Of course, IMO, Canon has been so anti-4K that they have painted themselves into a corner and now with this 24p fiasco, if they ever have any interest in the consumer/prosumer video ILC market, they will have to start offering more.

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

Exactly. I think people complain about Canon on forums for two reasons... they’re either Sony/Panasonic fanboys or they just want to shoot with a Canon camera but the company makes it too difficult sometimes to justify the purchase.

But any shooter should be able to make t2i footage shine if they had to.

I'm a Sony fanboy and former Canon shooter, I only complain about Canon when they cripple as it hurts everyone not just Canon shooters.

When companies battle it out to bring the best camera to market - the consumer wins.

When Companies hold back - everyone is sorta affected. 

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Canon didn't need to do much, they just needed to give a bit more. The EOS R can't even compete with the X-H1 coming from Fuji. IBIS and slow motion and codec are better, minus the DPAF.  Dual card slots and a cheaper price would of been great. They should of launched it at $1,799 out the door and it would of sold quite heavily. More RF users, more Canon cameras out in the wild.

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16 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

I'm a Sony fanboy and former Canon shooter, I only complain about Canon when the cripple as it hurts everyone not just Canon shooters.

When companies battle it out to bring the best camera to market - the consumer wins.

When Companies hold back - everyone is sorta affected. 

I agree. This lack of 24p is an alarming omission and hopefully stupidity like this doesn’t trickle down to the other manufacturers. With Sony and Panasonic refusal to update their lower tiered cameras in a few years with any meaningful upgrades, I’m afraid this could be a sign of what’s yet to come.

Now obviously Sony has introduced some better AF but it’s pretty crazy that Canon now has a higher bitrate codec than Sony and Panasonic 4K cameras in the sub-$1000 market.

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Seriously,....how profitable is Canon's cine camcorder division? How many C200's do they sell in a month? 20?....50 at very most? (I doubt its that high) THIS is what they are trying to protect?

If Canon made a 5D V camera (or mirrorless) with CLog, 4k full pixel readout, no recording limit, clean 4k HDMI, 200mbp/s long GOP to SD cards, mic and headphone jacks, raw over HDMI and a few more small things from a great BSI sensor....people would go CRAZY for it!

This "dream" camera would make up for any C200 lost sales TEN TIMES OVER!...and would get Cannon back into the game. This would put an end to all the YouTube joke videos about Cannon!

Would this not be great for Cannon profits??

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It's true Canon could totally own the mirrorless/DSLR market. If the EOS R had a 1.5x crop, no binning/skipping, 13 stop 4K internal raw or over USB-C, and <16ms rolling shutter, who wouldn't want one? Filmmakers are a fickle bunch; I'd be the first in line. 🤗 But I can't see it happening any time soon because it would totally run against Canon's "what can we recycle out of the parts bin?" business model.

Sigma gets it, the FP will be huge if Sigma nails the tech and the price is right.

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30 minutes ago, The ghost of squig said:

Sigma gets it, the FP will be huge if Sigma nails the tech and the price is right.

Well, we hope Sigma gets it... it really depends upon the price and if they’re able to get that signature Foveon color with a Bayer sensor.

What price is right for you? I’m hoping $2000 or less... hopefully closer to $1500. But I suspect it will be closer to $3000... which is just too much for me. 

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

How many C200's do they sell in a month? 20?....50 at very most? (I doubt its that high) THIS is what they are trying to protect?

That’s a good question... according to their q2 report, camera sales were down and they still sold over a million units in one quarter... how many of those were cinema cameras... I don’t know but probably more than you think. 

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

Well, we hope Sigma gets it... it really depends upon the price and if they’re able to get that signature Foveon color with a Bayer sensor.

What price is right for you? I’m hoping $2000 or less... hopefully closer to $1500. But I suspect it will be closer to $3000... which is just too much for me.

$1500 sounds good to me. It really depends on how good it is in terms of color, rolling shutter, AF, aliasing, high ISO noise, and dynamic range. I already have a camera that's great in most of those areas, the Pocket 4K, but DPAF would really enhance my setup, and I'd rather shoot without speed boosters. The Sigma FP sounds like what the 5D mkiV and EOS R should've been. After the Mk3, most filmmakers went for a Sony, Blackmagic, GH5, or stuck with the Mk3 with Magic Lantern. The thing that turned me off the MkIV and R the most wasn't the crop, it was the hideous rolling shutter, and no raw.

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1 hour ago, mercer said:
2 hours ago, Cliff Totten said:

Seriously,....how profitable is Canon's cine camcorder division? How many C200's do they sell in a month? 20?....50 at very most? (I doubt its that high) THIS is what they are trying to protect?

That’s a good question... according to their q2 report, camera sales were down and they still sold over a million units in one quarter... how many of those were cinema cameras... I don’t know but probably more than you think. 

I'm sure their cinema line has the highest profit margin by a lot but, with the contracting camera market, it's mind-boggling that they seem to be going out of their way to alienate a segment of the market that they played such a primary role in creating.

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3 minutes ago, Thomas Hill said:

I'm sure their cinema line has the highest profit margin by a lot but, with the contracting camera market, it's mind-boggling that they seem to be going out of their way to alienate a segment of the market that they played such a primary role in creating.

Yeah, it’s so dumb, it almost seems like it may be an arbitrary decision and not intentional crippling. 

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One thing that I feel is the only real advantage Blackmagic has (which is admittedly huge) is that they shoot Blackmagic Raw and Prores. If similar, partially debayered RAW and Prores were intoduced into Panasonic or Olympus cameras, Blackmagic would have likely very little advantage. A lot of the mirrorless cameras have IBIS, phase-detect AF, battery life, smaller, etc. Even the Z-Cam E2 and the newer cameras from Z-Cam can now shoot ZRAW and Prores, which almost puts them on the level of some BM cameras, especially with their really high framerates.

Blackmagic now delivers a really solid product with minimal issues, especially with their newer cameras, but their biggest downfall is they are too conservative in how they build their cameras.  They play it safe and build a solid, well-rounded product at a good price, but Blackmagic doesn't really push any sort of technological boundaries like some other manufacturers. Z-cam only started making cameras just a few years ago and they are already in many ways pushing ahead of  Blackmagic in many ways.

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