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Andrew Reid

Blackmagic to announce new camera related news at 12 noon PDT (8pm London)

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43 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I'm not arguing with you. I'm going by the low light performance being better from m43 to APS-C to Full frame sensor over the last two years.  

So you're saying the GH5 just has bad low light performance for no reason? That it was just an oversight by Panasonic and that they just some how improved it with the Gh5S?  Please post proof because I'm not taking your word for it. The trend in related cameras with the sensors above say other wise. 

Okay the P4K should have better lowlight than the P6K despite being a smaller sensor. like you said the GH5&GH5S have almost the same sensor size but one is much better. Where are you getting this information anyway?

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6 hours ago, Skip77 said:

The m43 sensor is the bottle reck with the Gh5 and P4K and owners of these cameras know it.  You can argue all day that it's not but APS-C is the sweet spot for sensors. You's go from APS-C to Full frame and not backwards.

I'm not here to defend my purchase.....I'm here to hopefully make people who have the P4K feel better about their purchase after being told by you that their camera now 'sucks' or that it 'sucks' to be them.

 I've had the P4K for over 6 months now and it has paid for itself many times over. I'll never loose money on it because it is still being requested on shoots by DP's who know the deal and know how great and flexible the camera is. Those same DP's and producers are not going to suddenly stop requesting it now that the 6K is out because it still delivers exactly what is necessary for production.  My P4K has been used as an A Cam and as a B Cam along side Ursa Mini Pro, Alexa Mini, Sony F5, Sony FS7, Canon C300II..... as an aside, there are many DP's earning good money who shoot Sony and use optical adaptors on the FS7, F5, FS5 etc. Optical adaptors are widely accepted professionally.

Not once has the MFT sensor been a bottleneck, quite the contrary, it has meant that the camera has been more versatile.

I always use it with a speedbooster because it means I have great flexibility in the lenses I can use. Shooting PL on the Alexa Mini? Sure, I can use the same lenses on the Pocket4k. Shooting EF, No problem, i can use EF....or pretty much any other lens under the sun. 

I have received many compliments on the pictures I have shot with the P4K, the release of the P6K does not mean those same images are any less good or negate the compliments I received from clients and producers. Those same producers have never requested anything greater than 4K files so the P6K would have no advantages and I have used the P4k on everything from Netflix Docs to Sports documentary for National TV. FOR ME......I just don't see ANY advantages to the P6K.

If you are a one man band and shoot/edit your own films and use EF glass exclusively while editing in Resolve and need the extra 2k resolution, sure get the P6K if you want to spend the extra money. It's going to be a great camera.

If you have the P4K and all of a sudden feel like you have been short changed....don't. It's a cheaper camera by a substantial amount (even if you do buy a speed booster, that can be had for $200), still shoots great images and is far more versatile. The 6K does not replace it. Hell, the Alexa Mini LF 'Only' shoots 4K so does the P6K suddenly mean the MiniLF is outdated?

If you want to future proof your investment then maybe 6K will be better in a year or two's time when BRAW is widely accepted, but by then, BMD will have released another camera (or two even, at the rate they are going!) with hopefully a more future proof mount.

The only people making the P4K obsolete are those that spend all their time on forums agonising over specs. In the real world, the P4K will still earn you money in a year's time....by then, there will be a new BMD camera more worthy of upgrading to.

6 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Does the speed booster happen to come FREE when you buy the P4K?  If not then why the $1,000 cheaper comments from P4K owners?  This is not correct information to be spreading. 

A Viltrox adaptor will cost you $150 at works a treat. 

Also, you will need a beefier setup to edit those 6K files over the 4K ones so factor that in as well.

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7 hours ago, Skip77 said:

The P6K will do better in low light. This happens when you move up to a bigger sensor. The P6K also has better processor and gives you upgrades across the board in what it can produce.  Yes the P6K and P4K can work perfect together and that's great. 

Frequently, a larger sensor is better in low light, but much of the gain is a result of the larger sensor usually having larger photosites (e.g. A7SII, GH5s). Better lowlight performance is one of the reasons why many of the smart phones are going to larger and larger sensors, but the megapixel count isn't drastically increasing anymore.

In the case of the P4K vs. the P6K, the sensor on the P6K is a little larger (23.1mm x 12.99mm VS. 18.96mm x 10mm), but they also increased pixel count on the P6K. In this case, the photosites on the P6K end up being smaller (~19%) than on the P4K. Based on just this aspect, I would expect the P4K to perform slightly better than the P6K. I know from the charts released by BM that the P6K has slightly more dynamic range below ISO 1250 (P6K: 13.3 vs. P4K: 13.1), but above ISO 1250, the P4K has slightly better dynamic range (P6K: 12.1 vs. P4K: 12.3).

I imagine that in a blind comparison, you couldn't tell them apart.

I am a little surprised that the P6K drops from 13.3 stops of dynamic range down to 12.1 @ ISO 1250. I suppose that I will have to be a little bit more careful to keep the ISO in the 100-1000 range on the P6K.

2 hours ago, JordanWright said:

Okay the P4K should have better lowlight than the P6K despite being a smaller sensor. like you said the GH5&GH5S have almost the same sensor size but one is much better. Where are you getting this information anyway?

@JordanWright Having both the GH5 & the GH5s, the GH5s is at least a couple of stops better than the GH5. With the GH5, I try to max out at 1600 on video. The GH5s looks about the same around 10,000. The GH5 is 20.3 Megapixels (17.3mm x 13mm) vs. the GH5s is 10.28 Megapixels (17.3mm x 13mm) so the GH5s has much larger photosites. I think that the sensor in the GH5s is also a newer model from Sony with some technical improvements.

I am sure that you already know this, but for everyone else's benefit, we call the pixel size the: Pixel Pitch  

Pixel pitch is the distance from the center of one pixel to the center of the next measured in micrometers (µm). It can be calculated with the following formula:

 

Pixel pitch =  sensor width in mm / sensor resolution width in pixels × 1000

The GH5s has a pixel pitch of 4.68 micrometers.

The P4K is ~4.6 micrometers & the P6K is ~3.76 micrometers.

 

The larger the pixel pitch, generally the better the low light performance.

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6 hours ago, Skip77 said:

Good luck unloading that P4K for close to what you paid. No one talks about the price being so low that resale value will be next to nothing.

I've seen a few on eBay still go for near new prices even since the P6K was released. If prices of the P4K do drop to 'next to nothing' pick one up! Makes the price difference to the P6K even greater and even more of a no brainer!

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1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

I've seen a few on eBay still go for near new prices even since the P6K was released. If prices of the P4K do drop to 'next to nothing' pick one up! Makes the price difference to the P6K even greater and even more of a no brainer!

B & H has the P4K in stock.  So that demand fever has dropped to nothing now that you can get one in two days. Do you buy a new one for $1,295 or a used one for $1,100? 

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14 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

B & H has the P4K in stock.  So that demand fever has dropped to nothing now that you can get one in two days. Do you buy a new one for $1,295 or a used one for $1,100? 

You may say that but people in Facebook Buy and Sell groups are still buying them for $1000.

Neither, I'm waiting for them to cost 'next to nothing' as you say so I can buy a few more 😉

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1 hour ago, A_Urquhart said:

I'm not here to defend my purchase.....I'm here to hopefully make people who have the P4K feel better about their purchase after being told by you that their camera now 'sucks' or that it 'sucks' to be them.

--

Not once has the MFT sensor been a bottleneck, quite the contrary, it has meant that the camera has been more versatile.

--

Those same producers have never requested anything greater than 4K files so the P6K would have no advantages and I have used the P4k on everything from Netflix Docs to Sports documentary for National TV. FOR ME......I just don't see ANY advantages to the P6K. 

--

Also, you will need a beefier setup to edit those 6K files over the 4K ones so factor that in as well.

Maybe you can show me when I said the P4K sucked? 

I said it sucks that they didn't know the P6K was going to be available.  

Using an adaptors is a pain to use if you don't have too.  You bring up the extra cost like it's an issue that's not worth the cost. As said before if you're worried about the cost of the P6K then you need to get a Fuji or Sony A7III.

Do you edit your own footage? Do you have a computer that can handle 4K RAW footage? If you don't or don't have one you don't have a clue what computer you need. 

I've always support the P4K and think it's a great camera at a great price.  It was never in stock at the time I was upgrading or I would have picked one up. 

Again, no need to add you're own flavor to what you think I said or what you want people to think I said.  M43 is not the system people referee to work in but what choice did they have?  You say the P4K is being requested by procurers for what? It hasn't been out long and the Ursa Mini Pro would be requested over the P4K or the Arrii would be requested over the P4K unless that producer was wanting to save money and was on a limited budget.  You seem to be telling a tale fish tale that the P4K is being requested over the Ursa Mini and Arrii. 

Please send links of the sample footage and tv shows that you shot with the P4K.  I'm doing a feature next month with one also. Lol

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2 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Using an adaptors is a pain to use if you don't have too.  You bring up the extra cost like it's an issue that's not worth the cost. As said before if you're worried about the cost of the P6K then you need to get a Fuji or Sony A7III.

Where is the issue with using a speed booster. I personally haven't come across any issues and speed boosters live on my Pocket4K.

3 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Do you edit your own footage? Do you have a computer that can handle 4K RAW footage? If you don't or don't have one you don't have a clue what computer you need. 

Yep, when I'm not working on larger productions I do shoot and edit my own small projects. My Razer Blade laptop, that I also use on set for transcoding proxies, cuts the 4K BRAW files in Resolve wonderfully. 

 

6 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

You say the P4K is being requested by procurers for what? It hasn't been out long and the Ursa Mini Pro would be requested over the P4K or the Arrii would be requested over the P4K unless that producer was wanting to save money and was on a limited budget.

Its being requested and accepted as a B Camera to the Alexa Mini and Ursa Mini Pro as a cheaper alternative that works well on a Gimbal or in other situations where a smaller camera is required.

Like you say, the Pocket4K hasn't been out that long and most of what has been shot is still in post production. If you really want some proof that I'm using the Pocket4k alongside the Alexa Mini and UMP, let me know and I can PM you some stills.

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

Where is the issue with using a speed booster. I personally haven't come across any issues and speed boosters live on my Pocket4K.

Yep, when I'm not working on larger productions I do shoot and edit my own small projects. My Razer Blade laptop, that I also use on set for transcoding proxies, cuts the 4K BRAW files in Resolve wonderfully. 

 

Its being requested and accepted as a B Camera to the Alexa Mini and Ursa Mini Pro as a cheaper alternative that works well on a Gimbal or in other situations where a smaller camera is required.

Like you say, the Pocket4K hasn't been out that long and most of what has been shot is still in post production. If you really want some proof that I'm using the Pocket4k alongside the Alexa Mini and UMP, let me know and I can PM you some stills.

 

 

 

DM sent over your way.

41 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

You may say that but people in Facebook Buy and Sell groups are still buying them for $1000.

Neither, I'm waiting for them to cost 'next to nothing' as you say so I can buy a few more 😉

Looks like the cost are stable for now.   How much do you think used P4K will go for? 

4 hours ago, sanveer said:

And Ignorance is beautiful. Or it isn't. 

Screen-Shot-2019-08-09-at-10.12.10-AM.png

Screen-Shot-2019-08-09-at-10.12.02-AM.png

What does DR have to do with low light performance?  And you really think BM will relate the P6K if it's worse in low light?  

4 hours ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

I didn’t realize this was supposed to be the blind circle-jerk thread.

 

Are you ok? Do you need time alone?

BM has never lead with the spec sheet for any recent camera release.  

P4K owners are acting like this is a Sony release. And defending using speed boosters the gain this or that as being the way to go.  Well its not and it's an added step. All the cine cameras that use speed boosters are also not m43 and they never will be. You have a reason the EVA1 and other cine relates are not m43.

Here's the output that you get from the p6k.  And let's remember all the comments about "who needs RAW anyway" 

You're not stuck at shooting at 6k with the P6K.

68808685_10219916575045036_5559597197713997824_n.jpg.0362c79234a4df278a0829d3ec249ae6.jpg

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8 hours ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

Also, I didn’t think they could possibly update the Pocket and make it MORE of an ugly duckling. 

 

Somehow, they managed to do exactly that.

True. By blackmagic this clearly is seen as a tool. No effort was done in esthetic design.

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Hey, look at those lower resolutions! That’s awesome! 

Oh wait, what does that word “crop” mean?

Also, it’s 2019. I thought all the speedbooster debates by people who don’t understand how they work were put to bed two years ago. I’m not rehashing how those work and their benefits again. 

Also, no way am I treating it like a Sony. AGAIN, I’m pointing out how the P6K is actually extremely similar to the the P4K, WHICH I OWN AND LIKE A LOT. Sony’s cameras are just gross. 

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12 minutes ago, Caleb Genheimer said:

Also, no way am I treating it like a Sony. AGAIN, I’m pointing out how the P6K is actually extremely similar to the the P4K, WHICH I OWN AND LIKE A LOT. Sony’s cameras are just gross. 

But you get those cool green skin tones with some of the Sony cameras. Isn't *that* cool?? :grin: Now that Sony is moving more toward their Venice colors, they are going to be tough to beat...

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