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Andrew Reid

Canon EOS RP and Fuji X-T30 announced - a Grand Canyon sized gap in 4K technology

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Somehow, I think this thread is missing the point. 

Personally, I think that any camera company that brings out a FF mirrorless (or DSLR) for US$1399 has a whole lot of room for excuses that its functionality is crippled relative to higher end products. (and, lets face it, the EOS-RP isnt even aimed at the typical demographic of a forum like this (or even say DPReview.))

The REAL question is whether Canon can actually come out with a 'high end camera' with specs that are competitive with its competitors - or whether there is a REAL 'Grand Canyon sized gulf' in technologies here between Canon and the others.

Personally, I simply dont believe that Canon can come out with a competitive high end product because its technology is so far behind (and falling further and further back.) The reason I say this is because Canon hasnt brought out a single competitive high end ILC in the last 5 years...

Take a look at their flagships

EOS-M5

7D mkii

5D mkiv (5DSR)

EOS-R

And while some 'might' consider these cameras competitive from a 'video' perspective (due to color science and DPAF) they certainly dont come close to being competitive from a stills perspective.

I suspect Canon's strategy is simply to dominate the low end of ILCs through low prices, economies of scale, fully depreciated and low R&D - then leave its major competitors to fight over the high end.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
1 hour ago, Django said:

You can shoot with your EF-S lenses on EOS RP in 4K 24p. The crop is 1.6x which equates to Canon's APS-C standard meaning full coverage of your lenses.

DPAF/CLog aside, EOS RP is actually a better 4K camera than EOS R / 5D4 thanks to the reduced crop (and I imagine RS).

There are plenty of irritating things about EOS RP, but crop factor isn't really one of them imo (especially if you compare to M50's whopping 2.56x 4K crop).

EOS RP is basically a decent FF stills, nice Super35 4K video hybrid with a YT/Vlog FHD mode. Kinda an odd mix, but not really that bad for $1300.

M50 with speedbooster fix the crop in 4K, for less than half the price of EOS-RP and 1080P 24P if needed as 4K 24P is not for every thing (especially file size and battery drain) and no PDAF is not good on gimbal, with M50 I get 1080P 24P to sync up with C200/C100 24K in much more manageable file size, and a few hundred dollar saving to my bank.

For general photography/casual it is not bad, I already told my friend to upgrade his 6D to this as he is mostly still and very light video user.

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53 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Personally, I simply dont believe that Canon can come out with a competitive high end product because its technology is so far behind (and falling further and further back.) The reason I say this is because Canon hasnt brought out a single competitive high end ILC in the last 5 years...

Take a look at their flagships

EOS-M5

7D mkii

5D mkiv (5DSR)

EOS-R

4

...1DX2? 

 RIO 2016:

1I1A0698-800x533.jpg

Pyeongchang 2018:

Edit_Canon_CPS_BTS_0015.JPG

Superbowl 2019:

Globephotosuperbowl1.jpg?uuid=007G7CekEe

 

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12 hours ago, Mokara said:

Digic DV5 is basically the same processor as the Digic 7 and Digic DV6 is basically the same processor as the Digic 8, with parts of the chip enabled/disabled depending on the sort of camera it is being used in. You would not have both in the same camera (excluding support processors of course, which typically are older versions of  the Digic family and are used for managing focusing in higher end systems)

They are not doing it on purpose, there is a reason for it. Just because you don't understand the reason (even when it is explained) does not make it any less of a reason. If Canon could put out products at that price point that would blow the competition away, they would. They don't because they can't. At least, not if they want to make a profit.

I say this as someone who is not enamored with Canon, but fair is fair and you need to be objective about it.

The people who will buy this camera are unlikely to want to shoot at 24p. That is a very small and specialized niche demand which is irrelevant to most users, particularly in the target market for this camera. The only people who shoot at 24p are wannabe feature film producers, no one else.

99.9% of video shot with this camera in FHD is going to be 60p.

So... They could do it, but they decided to cripple it intentionally? All of their cameras do 24P. There really isn't a proper justification from Canon's side not to provide 24P in FHD. I understood why they did with the 5Dmkii back in 2008, because it was innovative. This is 2019 and it's the minimum that they could do for people.

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19 minutes ago, Django said:

...1DX2? 

 

Yes well - I deliberately left it out because I dont know much about it. And clearly it dominates sports photography (although that has a lot to do with the lenses (and support)) and is likely to continue to do so.

However, if you take a look at the underlying sensor of the camera it is a long way from say an A7rii (similar vintage) in terms of underlying specs.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon--EOS-1D-X-Mark-II-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Nikon-D810___1071_1035_963

And I rather guess that other Canon technology deficiencies are masked by a massive 1.5kg body and over US$6k of tech. 

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59 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

I suspect Canon's strategy is simply to dominate the low end of ILCs through low prices, economies of scale, fully depreciated and low R&D - then leave its major competitors to fight over the high end.

I think it’s more about hedging their bets and their brand in the market and selling their old camera tech in new bodies for as long as they can get away with it. No other camera company, other than Leica, can get away with it.

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9 minutes ago, TheRealOG said:

So... They could do it, but they decided to cripple it intentionally? All of their cameras do 24P. There really isn't a proper justification from Canon's side not to provide 24P in FHD. I understood why they did with the 5Dmkii back in 2008, because it was innovative. This is 2019 and it's the minimum that they could do for people.

I think they the only justification is they don’t want video shooters to buy this camera instead of the EOS R.

And I agree, it‘s an arrogant and greedy decision, even for Canon standards. 

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I like Canon. They have held a warm place in my heart. I owned a XH-A1 camcorder years ago and worked with the 5Dmkii at the beginning of the DSLR revolution.  I owned a C100 MKI briefly and really dug it. The lightweight codec was awesome, but I needed the 60P. I picked up the 80D on a whim and it is absolutely great for my personal stuff. The touchscreen and ergonomics are superb. I was excited and ready to make a commitment to Canon for mirrorless, but it's been lackluster. Everyone else offers better gear for the price. I would of easily ordered the EOS RP for FHD, but damn I'm not that much of a sucker to get fleeced by them.

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36 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Yes well - I deliberately left it out because I dont know much about it. And clearly it dominates sports photography (although that has a lot to do with the lenses (and support)) and is likely to continue to do so.

However, if you take a look at the underlying sensor of the camera it is a long way from say an A7rii (similar vintage) in terms of underlying specs.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon--EOS-1D-X-Mark-II-versus-Sony-A7R-II-versus-Nikon-D810___1071_1035_963

And I rather guess that other Canon technology deficiencies are masked by a massive 1.5kg body and over US$6k of tech. 

I can guarantee you the pros that invest in a 1DX2 DGAF about DXO sensor ranking. A7R2 is a high MP landscape camera. Apple & oranges.

Canon's strength imo is in their top glass, ecosystem, ergonomics, color science, reliability etc.

They develop everything in-house which means a slower camera refresh rate than the competition (who all buy their sensors from sony and outsource various parts).

But 1DX2 is still the only FF camera that shoots DCI 4K60p (albeit at APS-H) and was the first hybrid to do no crop FF FHD 120fps (beating Sony to the punch).

Even if the Pro R model were to recycle 1DX2 sensor/specs it would still be a pretty solid release even for 2019 standards.

Canon however have heavily hinted towards a new sensor (as well as confirmed IBIS) so I expect the pro model to well surpass 1DX2..

EOS R / RP were clearly rushed and had to recycle 5D4/6D2 sensor tech. I expect Pro R model out by 2020 alongside 1DX3 just in time for Tokyo Olympics. 

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1 hour ago, Django said:

Even if the Pro R model were to recycle 1DX2 sensor/specs it would still be a pretty solid release even for 2019 standards.

Canon however have heavily hinted towards a new sensor (as well as confirmed IBIS) so I expect the pro model to well surpass 1DX2.

This would make the EOS R a VERY compelling option given the announced lenses and the EF adapters. I would likely move on from the a73 if such a camera surfaced. Right now the R’s aren’t that appealing as a hybrid shooter. IMO.

Chris

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9 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

This would make the EOS R a VERY compelling option given the announced lenses and the EF adapters. I would likely move on from the a73 if such a camera surfaced. Right now the R’s aren’t that appealing as a hybrid shooter. IMO.

Chris

Even at a $6000 price?

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5 hours ago, ntblowz said:

M50 with speedbooster blah blah blah

That comes with its own drawbacks, because it is 3rd party SB, it drains the battery even harder, the 4k crop is 1.81x vs 1.6x (same difference for the full sensor mode) , the 4k and ISO doesn't seem to look as good, and you cannot use the same crop lenses for photography without changing the adapter(with SB FF lenses for stills, the quality is really not that great either), so two adapters, more accessories to buy for a depreciating system(the RP includes the adapter so it's not exactly double the cost), a speedbooster can still come to the other as well. And I also mentioned the body differences, the RP looks better in that regard. I am not saying it is that much better, but it is certainly an alternative.

Of course there will be the M model with 4k DPAF enabled, but it will be very close in terms of cost or weight (new batteries again, etc...) maybe they will might give that something else to keep the system appealing.

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4 hours ago, Django said:

Superbowl 2019:

Globephotosuperbowl1.jpg?uuid=007G7CekEe

 

Funny thing about that photo is that NFL events are filmed with Sony Cameras, excluding the the sky-cams and pylon cameras for NFL.. 

The NFL Films guys who imo are probably the best Camera Operators in the world seem to usually run the Arri Amira

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In sport photography there are really 2 brands only. Canon and Nikon, we discussed the subject to the death recently, and is a silly argument to bring every time that Canon under-delivers; this doesn't mean a lot for other professional segments and to amateur customers.

McLaren makes amazing F1 cars, don't see many around me.

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2 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

Funny thing about that photo is that NFL events are filmed with Sony Cameras, excluding the the sky-cams and pylon cameras for NFL.. 

The NFL Films guys who imo are probably the best Camera Operators in the world seem to usually run the Arri Amira

..yeah and the most popular NFL beverage is.... MILLER LIGHT!

2tw5xx.jpg

..wait i was responding to Robert Collins's claim that "[Canon] certainly dont come close to being competitive from a stills perspective."

nobody ever mentioned broadcast TV cameras or NFL Films (who traditionally shot on 16mm film) cameras.

 

6 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

In sport photography there are really 2 brands only. Canon and Nikon, we discussed the subject to the death recently, and is a silly argument to bring every time that Canon under-delivers; this doesn't mean a lot for other professional segments and to amateur customers.

McLaren makes amazing F1 cars, don't see many around me.

It is just as silly to claim Canon isn't being competitive on the high-end every time Canon under-delivers on the low-end. Especially from a stills perspective.

Furthermore, the 1DX2 is used (and dominates)  a lot more pro segments than just sports photography. It's also a beast for video, unlike the D5 or even A9 (which can't do 4K60p).

I believe I already made all those points above, so thanks for not taking out of context or singling out responses to specific attacks..

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3 hours ago, Django said:

..yeah and the most popular NFL beverage is.... MILLER LIGHT!

2tw5xx.jpg

..wait i was responding to Robert Collins's claim that "[Canon] certainly dont come close to being competitive from a stills perspective."

nobody ever mentioned broadcast TV cameras or NFL Films (who traditionally shot on 16mm film) cameras.

 

It is just as silly to claim Canon isn't being competitive on the high-end every time Canon under-delivers on the low-end. Especially from a stills perspective.

Furthermore, the 1DX2 is used (and dominates)  a lot more pro segments than just sports photography. It's also a beast for video, unlike the D5 or even A9 (which can't do 4K60p).

I believe I already made all those points above, so thanks for not taking out of context or singling out responses to specific attacks..

A few years ago most of the people here owned a Canon dSLR, I shot 2 hours long documentaries with a 60D back then, now, how many from the hundreds participating in this forum own a modern Canon?

If you can not see that Canon is loosing, slowly but steady, a market that owned at an absolute percentage a few years ago, then what I can say. 

1DX2 doesn't "dominates" a lot other segments. I wish we had real numbers here, but again in my working environment, people are using A7sII and GH5 cameras as productive video tools, while I haven't even seen even one 1D camera, ever. The most popular Canon for video these days (between photo/hybrids) is easily the 80D, and that says a lot about where Canon is today.

Imagine how far a competitive Canon could take our whole segment forward.

Sony, with all the mistakes they did and all the R&D they did in the backs of paying customers - with all these sub par cameras that offered until recently, did a great job for bringing cheap full frame camera to the masses.

Before the RP, you could buy a A7 or A7ii for less than middling m43 cameras. Panasonic brought great video performamce to the masses and created dependable pro video cameras (GH5/s), Samsung did their thing for a few years, Fuji is offering top APS-C performance for less $€£, Nikon is finally playing all their cards when it seemed most likely that they were destined to fold. They all trying to add something up.

I respect your opinion and the way you express yourself in this forum, by the way!

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25 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

how many from the hundreds participating in this forum own a modern Canon?

I'm one of those :) 

Quote

If you can not see that Canon is loosing, slowly but steady, a market that owned at an absolute percentage a few years ago, then what I can say. [...]  I wish we had real numbers here, but again in my working environment, people are using A7sII and GH5 cameras as productive video tools, while I haven't even seen even one 1D camera, ever. 

I too make this observation. It's not often that I spot a video shooter that earns his or her living with a Canon DSLR or MILC.

But on the other side there are numbers that contradict this subjective observations. With the M50 ans EOS R Canon has apparently taken the market lead for mirrorless cameras in Japan (Canon Rumors reported that some weeks ago). I don't know if that market is completely different from that in Europe and America but I take it as a sign that potential customers with need for good video specs still represent only a small minority of the whole market.

Canon is a successful business, been so for many years. To say they don't know what they are doing (as many here apparently think) is simply naive.

Specs aren't everything, reliability and support are just as important if you want to use these tools on a daily basis to earn a living. And Canon does have reliable products and very good support. Nonetheless that's no excuse for what Canon did with the Video-mode in the EOS RP.  

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I think Canon will sell loads of these but not to people who care at all about video quality - it is definitely aimed at photographers and frustratingly for us with Canon fit lenses, almost all of their dslr and mirrorless cameras are too. There still isn't a decent spec (on the video side) cheapish Canon hybrid. We are probably a small niche market they don't really care about which is annoying but best to just accept it and move on to a company that does cater for what we want. There are plenty of other companies that have reliable and relevant products with good support. (and have decent AF and colour etc)

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1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

A few years ago most of the people here owned a Canon dSLR, I shot 2 hours long documentaries with a 60D back then, now, how many from the hundreds participating in this forum own a modern Canon?

If you can not see that Canon is loosing, slowly but steady, a market that owned at an absolute percentage a few years ago, then what I can say. 

1DX2 doesn't "dominates" a lot other segments. I wish we had real numbers here, but again in my working environment, people are using A7sII and GH5 cameras as productive video tools, while I haven't even seen even one 1D camera, ever. The most popular Canon for video these days (between photo/hybrids) is easily the 80D, and that says a lot about where Canon is today.

Imagine how far a competitive Canon could take our whole segment forward.

Sony, with all the mistakes they did and all the R&D they did in the backs of paying customers - with all these sub par cameras that offered until recently, did a great job for bringing cheap full frame camera to the masses.

Before the RP, you could buy a A7 or A7ii for less than middling m43 cameras. Panasonic brought great video performamce to the masses and created dependable pro video cameras (GH5/s), Samsung did their thing for a few years, Fuji is offering top APS-C performance for less $€£, Nikon is finally playing all their cards when it seemed most likely that they were destined to fold. They all trying to add something up.

I respect your opinion and the way you express yourself in this forum, by the way!

Oh yeah don't get me wrong I never claimed Canon was the popular choice for video these days.. it is clear from this forum alone that people have shifted their interests towards Panasonic, Sony, Samsung.. and more recently Fuji & Nikon.

If anything Canon seems to always disappoint the video community. I understand why, however as an actual user (one of the few perhaps around here) I try and give out my perspective as to why I've chosen to stick with them.    

In a nutshell, I guess it could be summed up to the overall ecosystem, the reliability, the ergonomics & the mojo from certain exotic lenses combined with their color science.

A fair comparison I think could be Apple (vs Android/PC). A lot of the criticism is similar as well: overpriced, old tech,  limited closed system etc..

But in actual use, sum feels greater than parts and that's all i'm really trying to say at those obsessing over charts & specs.

One thing is for sure, the competition in the FF mirrorless market is pretty fierce now and it's only going to be beneficial to the consumer.

It's no coincidence Sony announced their Dual Pixel-like AF improvements for A73/A9 or that Nikon just unveiled the details of their 12-bit RAW output (I'm hoping they take it a step further and add it internally, now that would really put the pressure on Sony/Pany/Canon).

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1 hour ago, Michi said:

Specs aren't everything, reliability and support are just as important if you want to use these tools on a daily basis to earn a living. And Canon does have reliable products and very good support. Nonetheless that's no excuse for what Canon did with the Video-mode in the EOS RP.  

Obviously Japan is a unique and a lot different market than Europe! 

We are talking about a country that pushes 8K TV broadcasting already and the most well sold mirrorless is the M50!

I only can comment of what is going on around me. Still C100mkII is my favorite video camera.

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