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Fuji X-H1. IBIS, Phase Detect 4K beast?

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On 2018. 03. 14. at 1:59 PM, Attila Bakos said:

@frontfocus Can you please check if 1080p60 has more moiré/aliasing on the X-H1 than on the X-T2? I'd like to know if you can confirm this.

 

On 2018. 03. 14. at 2:02 PM, frontfocus said:

@Attila Bakos I will do. Don‘t know if I find enough spare time today or tomorrow, since I first have to get my X-T2, but weekend at the lastest I will do

@frontfocus Hi, did you have time to check this?

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
44 minutes ago, brianwahl said:

 

 

Thanks for the detailed post :)

I watched the first 2 videos that are very similar. I think the Fuji one looked quite a lot better.

I am still waiting on my Xh1 as im away in Egypt for the next few weeks and cant get one here. 

Ill admit the new sony caught my eye with its great low light and i do like full frame, however when it comes to looking at footage the Fuji pulls me back everytime regardless of spec. 

Im currently using a gh5 for both video and stills and will switch over to Fuji when im back in the uk. I think although i will lose some nice spec... 10 bit :( the image just looks so good to me for both video and stills that im going for it.

I like the idea of using a wide dynamic rage setting ie eterna with 400% to have nice colours out the box at the same time as extended dynamic range. Its actually a very unique feature for this camera

Ill add i can see why people would pick sony over the Xh1 and i see lots of talk about auto focus etc. However i move the same canon fd lenses from camera to camera (sometimes with a new speedbooster) and only use manuel focus for all my stills and video. I forget at times that people use auto as im so used to manuel. 

Upside with using manuel for stills too and using the same lenses for years (GH1 onwards) is that im a focus ninja with them :)

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39 minutes ago, Robin Billingham said:

Ill add i can see why people would pick sony over the Xh1 and i see lots of talk about auto focus etc. However i move the same canon fd lenses from camera to camera (sometimes with a new speedbooster) and only use manuel focus for all my stills and video. I forget at times that people use auto as im so used to manuel. 

Upside with using manuel for stills too and using the same lenses for years (GH1 onwards) is that im a focus ninja with them :)

If you're using manual focus, I think you'll prefer the Fuji over the Sony. The Fuji lets you change the focus system on their lenses to 'linear', which I've found makes a big difference when focussing manually. Plus the peaking on the Fuji is better and more reliable in my experience.

The Sony G-Master lenses are actually really nice to use for manual focus - at least the 24-70 and the 70-200 that I have, but again, you pay big-time for them.

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Nice review and footage. Great to hear from someone who has used both systems.

Earlier, webrunner commented that Fuji is "too pretty" and that its stupid to pick a camera just based on image. But I will say its much easier to make a pretty image look grungy than it is to make a grungy image look pretty. That's why the SOOC fuji image is such a draw. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

Nice review and footage. Great to hear from someone who has used both systems.

Earlier, webrunner commented that Fuji is "too pretty" and that its stupid to pick a camera just based on image. But I will say its much easier to make a pretty image look grungy than it is to make a grungy image look pretty. That's why the SOOC fuji image is such a draw. 

 

Thanks!

I must have missed that comment, but for most people, I'd think 'image' (whatever that means - it's different to different people) is the main factor in choosing a camera. Personally I've used workflows where I shot log almost all the time (Blackmagic at first, and then Sony), but I grew to hate that workflow, and in the work I did, I rarely saw it make a difference. I'd prefer an image straight from the camera that looks close to what my final delivery will be. I will say this, though - Blackmagic's log (they call it 'film') is so much easier to work with than S-log, but in my case that comes down to me not knowing how to work with S-log very well.

But different people have different needs/wants from a camera system, so they should pick the system that suits their needs the best.

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5 hours ago, brianwahl said:

Sorry for the massively long post. I know there are lots of people reading here probably trying to decide between the X-H1 and the a7iii. I'm one of them, so hopefully my experience can help you make that decision.

Awesome post with some great samples. Color is subjective, but I've always liked the color out of Fuji much better than Sony. Red always seems to be super hot or more orange on the a7r2 and a7s2 I shoot with. Plus there's the issue with blue highlights that pops up from time to time. I don't want to spend a lot of time trying to fix colors, I like to get them as close to the end product SOOC. The post calling Fuji pretty but not cinematic is just silly as its just an opinion. Eterna is a shining example of cinematic color. Classic Chrome and Pro Neg have been my go-to looks and Eterna looks much better. Looking forward to adding a XH1 to my kit.

Cheers

Chris

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5 hours ago, brianwahl said:

Here's a very similar project using the Sony a9 and the a6500 together: It's a bit different look, and I like it. But it took a lot to get there.

I am a canon guy and if you look above you will see that I have bashed both the fuji and the sony for various reasons. So I have no brand loyalty between these two manufacturers. But I have to say that the fuji footage looks 2x better IMO. I can see two things at play here:

1. Color science is much better in the fuji. The skin tones are a dead give away. Look at the very first scene with the sony and see how blotchy and unappealing his skin looks. Then compare that with the fuji. I feel like I can see every pore on his skin with the Sony. There are oil blotches everywhere. Funnily enough, this is related to color.   

Despite your grading, the color still looks off with the sony. Particularly look at his skin at 0:19 secs in to the sony material. That is very hard to fix.

Another thing people often fail to mention is color separation. If the skin tone is pronounced the subject is isolated from the background.

Go to 1:32 on the fuji and 2:24 on the sony material, pause it and look how much more he pops on the fuji material. The sony material looks flat as pancakes. 

2. I can see the codec is more robust. The image looks a lot smoother and sturdy. There is less of that digital sharpness that you get with the sony, which makes it look very videoy.  

Having said that, if someone is working purely as a videographer I would recommend a second hand c100 (mk I or II) any day of the week haha.

For hybrid,  the fuji wins for image alone. 

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On 26.3.2018 at 11:11 PM, webrunner5 said:

Ever heard of ETTR? I think your thought process is ass backwards. Underexposure is about the worse thing you can ever do. You can't get back what you never had.

I have heard of it and I do know, that ISO has absolutely nothing to do with exposure. It's just gain. If you increase ISO for ETTR you are not exposing to the right, you are increasing gain to get brightness. Different things. And it's the other way round, what you loose in the highlight you can't get back, in the shadows you can get back a lot. That's just the way digital sensors work. Film was different and that's why many still talk about highlight roll off of film

On 27.3.2018 at 12:44 PM, Attila Bakos said:

@frontfocus Hi, did you have time to check this?

Actually I did. It took me a while to find a subject which shows moire, but when I found it I did compare the X-T2 and X-H1. I didn't use a tripod, which brought me to the conclusion, that moire is more noticeable with the X-H1, because handheld the image is moire stable and you notice it more.

If you just compare sensor output, I'd guess the X-H1 has the exact same 3000px to 1920px downscale and with that the same amount of moire. 

just some quick cropped screencaps, but moire shows on both cameras and I'd say it's the same amount if you would do the exact same shot. 

X-T2:

X-T2-mo.jpg

X-H1:

X-H1-mo.jpg

 

edit: in this comparison the X-H1 seems to have less moire, but when looking through the footage, I have seen the exact same amount as the X-T2 produces.

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@frontfocus Thanks for the test! I'm happy for the results but it's also confusing, that video earlier showed a massive difference in 1080p60 mode. I just checked it again, the movement is about the same, but the X-T2 looks noticably cleaner. There must be a difference in settings, or maybe his unit is flawed, I don't know. I don't really care about 120p, but as I'm switching from the X-T2, I want to be sure that I get at least the same 60p quality. Too bad I can't rent this camera where I live.

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I can do some more testing. I'd have to probably get a better subject and use a tripod to really compare it, but looking at the video you linked, to me it looks like he messed up his settings or files and only looked at slow mo from the X-H1, which seems to be pixel binned and not downscaled

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@brianwahl Great post, it should be tagged and stick in the top for everyone to see!

In the end, everyone buys what fits him/her.

If I compare my NX system to the Fuji, 18 out of 20 I prefer NX, but if you compare Fuji to Sony, then hands down Fuji is a more appealing proposition. The color science is not even close, and older Sony cameras had a lot of different issues. I also do not care for full frame, and Fuji ISO performance seems adequate for most things (and that stop extra performance, is the 1 out of the 2  things Fuji is better than my NX1s!).

Congratulations for your business too.

@Yurolov C100mkII all the way baby! The best, worst codec ever existed on this planet!

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41 minutes ago, frontfocus said:

I can do some more testing. I'd have to probably get a better subject and use a tripod to really compare it, but looking at the video you linked, to me it looks like he messed up his settings or files and only looked at slow mo from the X-H1, which seems to be pixel binned and not downscaled

Thanks, that would be much appreciated!

@frontfocus I had the same feeling so asked the guy specificly about the high speed setting, and he said it was switched off at the first shot.

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Speaking of second hand C100's i ended up doing just that and picked up a minty C100+DPAF+Ninja Star last week. Whole kit cost me far less than a XH1/A73/GH5 and I'm still more impressed by the 1080p IQ of this old 2012 sensor than any of these recent MILCs. Not to mention NDs, pro audio & handling..

That being said i'm still looking for a hybrid replacement of the XT2 i got stolen last month and of course XH1 is high on the list..

We do have the A73 + Batis lenses at work. It's undeniably a powerfull & compact system that can produce some excellent IQ (hot pixels & bugs aside).

But i feel zero emotional connection to the camera or the footage. it's just a tool. No excitement. Unlike shooting with the Fuji.

I fully agree with most the pros/cons listed by @brianwahl especially that Fuji produces excellent usable SOOC results both in stills/video.

However not sure i can agree when it comes to lenses & manual focus for video. Focus by wire sucks for video imo: it's steppy, innacurate and the fast f1.4 fuji primes do make a racket.

I haven't tried the new linear mode but nothing beats mechanical with a nice throw imo. Sony also has the advantage of having so many adapters available & vast vintage full frame lenses to choose from. If i were to go back to Fuji i'd probably cop some Samyang cine glass to pair with it.

The FF + S35 4K is imo the strongest advantage of the A73 vs the odd 1.7x crop of the XT2/XH1. And for stills FF > APS-C.

But the analog ergonomics, colors & film simulations are still a strong selling factor and is what keeps me coming back to these quirky Fuji cams.

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47 minutes ago, Django said:

However not sure i can agree when it comes to lenses & manual focus for video. Focus by wire sucks for video imo: it's steppy, innacurate and the fast f1.4 fuji primes do make a racket.

I haven't tried the new linear mode but nothing beats mechanical with a nice throw imo.

no, nothing beats a mechanical manual focus lens, those are designed for it. But the new linear focus mode is really working great. Big plus for the Fuji, if you are also a photographer using autofocusing lenses. I will be using the Fujinon AF lenses a lot more now. Most of the fast once I own, are still loud though. 

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I think this Fringer EF>FX with AF adapter (when its ever available in stock again!) and the upcoming Kipon version with the focal reducer will make a big difference.

 

I have to say though that the IBIS on the X-H1 bothers me more every time I look at demos on YouTube and is making me sit it out for a while yet to see how it progresses. It concerns me more than the AF issues actually. With those you can always workaround it (by using your own eyes ;) ) but some of the coarse corrections I've seen on people's demos are terrible and, of course, permanent.

Of course, I'm basing this purely on watching other people's footage rather than personal experience so thats a big disclaimer right there and I'm hoping someone who actually owns one can contradict it.

There is a lot of curiosity about whether Fuji will do a firmware update for the X-T2 for internal F-Log and/or Eterna and I have to say if I was them I would steer clear of that for a good while as, for me at least and I'm sure a few others, if it has those then I can't see enough in the current IBIS performance to make me upgrade to the X-H1.

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Not hating here or anything, but it would also sting a little having to buy a second battery grip if you already own the X-T2. Several reviewers have also regretted the missed opportunity to go with a greater capacity battery in the significantly larger body of the X-H1.

Concerning SOOC color, when the X-T2 was released, practically everyone was saying how the film emulations were great if you didn’t want to do a lot of post processing. Then Fuji releases the X-H1 with Eterna because of feedback from filmmakers who wanted a flatter profile. Eterna was developed in order to allow more flexibility in post, not to be distributed SOOC. I’m not knocking Eterna, or those who must absolutely have the quickest turnaround, but SOOC video will seldom be better than mediocre - the best results are almost always obtained by post processing. 

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@jonpais i think you are confusing Eterna with F-Log. Eterna, like all the other sims can be delivered SOOC and is actually meant to reduce work in post:

The FUJIFILM X-H1 features the "ETERNA" mode, a new Film Simulation mode suitable for video recording, simulating the output of cinematographic films. Characterized by subdued color presentations and rich shadow tones, this mode can be used at 400% Dynamic Range (equivalent to approximately 12 stops) to attain video recording with a high degree of perfection while substantially reducing color-grading workload in post processing.

my experience with it is that it indeed requires very little tweaking but since it's pretty flat does allow flexibility -should one need it- other sims tend to crush the blacks too much.

@BTM_Pix My short experience with the X-H1 IBIS was that it was really solid when holding still or doing pans, walking is when you might notice some micro-adjustments but imo all IBIS systems somewhat fail when you start walking. it's what gimbals are made for. XH1 IBIS is still miles ahead of Sony FF imo..

I'm more concerned with the rolling shutter on XH1. it seemed to me worst than XT2 (borderling A6xxx). But maybe i'm wrong. Perhaps @frontfocus or someone could compare/measure it and report back to us on that.

 

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Sorry, @Django, but while Eterna may certainly reduce the work involved in post (which BTW, I already said), Eterna was meant for greater creative flexibility when grading. It does not eliminate the need for grading. And unless you absolutely must have quick turnaround, a graded image will almost always be superior to an ungraded one. 

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