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DaveAltizer

Fuji X-H1. IBIS, Phase Detect 4K beast?

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Not having a 4k, hdr display I did a basic grade in 2020 to try in a dept store tv with a couple of sony a6300 slog3 clips and there is an obvious difference in how the shadows and highlights are allocated in the hdr, 2020 clips vs the normal 4k 709 graded clips. I could see the sky AND the details in the below mid gray at the same time. And I graded the clips in catalyst browse not even resolve. So in my limited experience, 8bit shows a real difference in hdr.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

It's not only  GH5, people are forgetting there is also the GH5s option. I would rather go for that right now.

Depending of the use of course, but when you do video, for semi pro or pro work, you need a lot of recording time. The bulk of our job is to record something, be it a live performance, a sports performance, reality TV, long documentary takes etc. Even the NX1, a 4 years camera can do 78min continuous take.

If I was in the market, and split between the a6500 and this, then definitely this camera wins, I would go for that 11 out of 10, but if anyone wants a workhorse video camera, the GH5 and S are so far ahead that it isn't even close. There is also the option of the A7Sii, it seems it is coming down in price while it will go further down when the III comes. 

I do not see a lot of people buying this, mostly Fuji users that do a little bit of video, I am not sure how big of a market share that is, maybe something like 0,5% of total ILC sales. The good thing, is that it maybe pushes Sony to make a real PRO APS-C camera.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Well Sony and Fuji's engineers clearly disagree.

It works in 8bit. Clear advantage over Rec.709 colour profiles.

I've used it and seen the difference for myself. It isn't a 10bit-only colour space.

S-Gamut is also a wide colour space, and that can be compressed to 8bit as well.

Well, I don't know what to say.

The LOG format can be indeed compressed in 8 bit, but it looses a lot tonality in the process, it has more DR but not colors.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Well Sony and Fuji's engineers clearly disagree.

It works in 8bit. Clear advantage over Rec.709 colour profiles.

I've used it and seen the difference for myself. It isn't a 10bit-only colour space.

S-Gamut is also a wide colour space, and that can be compressed to 8bit as well.

From Wiki.

"Technical details

Resolution

Rec. 2020 defines two resolutions of 3840 × 2160 ("4K") and 7680 × 4320 ("8K").[1] These resolutions have an aspect ratio of 16:9 and use square pixels.[1]

Frame rate

Rec. 2020 specifies the following frame rates: 120p, 119.88p, 100p, 60p, 59.94p, 50p, 30p, 29.97p, 25p, 24p, 23.976p.[1] Only progressive scan frame rates are allowed.[1]

Digital representation

Rec. 2020 defines a bit depth of either 10-bits per sample or 12-bits per sample.[1]

10-bits per sample Rec. 2020 uses video levels where the black level is defined as code 64 and the nominal peak is defined as code 940.[1] Codes 0–3 and 1,020–1,023 are used for the timing reference.[1] Codes 4 through 63 provide video data below the black level while codes 941 through 1,019 provide video data above the nominal peak.[1]

12-bits per sample Rec. 2020 uses video levels where the black level is defined as code 256 and the nominal peak is defined as code 3760.[1] Codes 0–15 and 4,080–4,095 are used for the timing reference.[1] Codes 16 through 255 provide video data below the black level while codes 3,761 through 4,079 provide video data above the nominal peak.[1"

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The gamut can be large but the bit depth can still be low. By using 8bits, you are effectively undersampling the larger space. 

Many Sony color profiles used a larger space than rec709. Even at 8bits, these are very useful, especially under artificial lighting. The trick is to boost saturation just enough so you don't get color clipping. 

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I used the wider colour gamut of S-Gamut 3 for EOSHD Pro Color to avoid exactly that - the clipping issue (especially bright blues) in the standard rec.709 colour profiles.

Also the discolouration just before the clipping point is much worse in rec.709 than in S-Gamut or rec2020 with Hybrid Log Gamma.

Too many backseat drivers who just look at the technical standards and don't shoot anything chiming in saying blah blah you can't do it. When you can.

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You can do it, but is it worthwhile doing it? Not an expert here, but slog sgamut does some funky things to the colors in the Alpha cameras. Clog on the other hand is effective on an 8 bit camera. True you might save in clipping but what are the tradeoffs in most circumstances. 

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On 2/9/2018 at 3:49 AM, Django said:

Only thing clownish I'm seeing here is your comments I'm afraid.. Do you even have any experience with (latest gen) Fuji X system for video? or is it all based on silly JPG YT shootouts of fruits & charts?!

Here is an ungraded video from an actual real-world DOP giving you the rundown on what i'd agree are some of the IQ highlights for video work:

 

God damn that looks good ! I wouldn't even ruin the look of this with a LUT. This thing truly looks like its own film stock...which would make sense when Fuji MAKES the film people try to emulate with software 

20 hours ago, Yurolov said:

Flog will be native to the sensor so the image quality should be leagues ahead of the a6500, 10 bit or not. Then there is the better ergonomics, the lenses and the price point. I think this should directly compete with the GH5 and is much better than anything Sony has offered up.  

how does this make sense ? SLOG is designed for Sony sensors you know....the same way umm FLOG is designed for Fuji.When you start using words like "better" when comparing unreleased cameras to what people have shot and tested it makes me wonder what you are basing this evidence on. It sounds more so like your really hoping its better than Sony cameras when in reality it doesn't matter. Does it produce a good image should be the question. 

15 hours ago, Eno said:

@Andrew Reid: "A first for a Fuji camera, F-LOG with Rec.2020 colour"

Rec. 2020 defines a bit depth of either 10-bits per sample or 12-bits per sample, have I missed the 10 bit output somewhere in the specs? :confused:

If its 8 bit it wont be true rec2020 color but it will have enough colors to fit inside the rec2020 spec. So in essence you take advantage of the displays wide dynamic range and not so much the total color depth. Your eyes are more sensitive to changes in luminance than chrominance so the color difference is not that big of a deal

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1 hour ago, kidzrevil said:

If its 8 bit it wont be true rec2020 color but it will have enough colors to fit inside the rec2020 spec. So in essence you take advantage of the displays wide dynamic range and not so much the total color depth. Your eyes are more sensitive to changes in luminance than chrominance so the color difference is not that big of a deal

Sure 8 bit will fit in 10 bit and, 10 bit in 12 bit, on and on. Is 8 bit better than 10 bit, no. And the graph below shows why more bits counts. Can we afford high bit rate cameras, well hell no, not a lot of us LoL. We might rent one, operate one, but..

Rec. 509 fit into Rec. 709, and it still does on old re runs on TV shot 40 years ago. But 509 ain't 709, and 8 bit ain't Rec. 2020.

But you are right Kid it will all look better even though it is not true 2020.

 

Color-depth-RAW-files.jpg

It doesn't make great output from 8 bit cameras bad. Fuji seems to have figured it out moving colors around. It is what we have been using for years. Until the GH5 it is all most of us ever have and can afford like I said.. Who the hell even heard of HDR a year ago, or thought we could ever shoot it. Now we can see it on a Cellphone.

And sure you can have a wider color gamut, all kinds of gamuts. Hell look how many are in Photoshop, Premier, etc. but it can Only have 256 colors in  them in 8 bit. You can bend them to endless configs, but not like 10 bit or up. 10 bit is a Hell of a jump in color possibility's. And 16 bit, well shit.

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Well we can use ProRes I guess, but in the output part of it what are people going to be looking at it with. Unfortunately most will see it in Rec. 709.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202410

 

I am afraid we are in a transition period, and a lot of us if we are lucky will have TV that see Rec. 2020, have HDR specs from hell. We will have 12 bit cameras that are easy to use. Most Raw cameras are pretty much a pain to use or turn into usable stuff to output.

Way beyond my thought process to how it will all end up down the road. But I would imagine if a person had some money you will be able to buy stuff we could have only dreamed of, for not a hell of a lot in not a hell of a long time from now..

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On 2/9/2018 at 3:28 PM, salim said:

The lates recap on the Fuji: 

 

4K with 1.17x crop and 30p

4:2:0 in camera

8 bit

200 Mbps (the X-T2 has 100 Mbps)

internal F-Log

So... in other words... another junk camera that can't really be used on any client facing work or serious projects. Wonderfull. :expressionless:

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21 minutes ago, bwhitz said:

So... in other words... another junk camera that can't really be used on any client facing work or serious projects. Wonderfull. :expressionless:

Did you even look at the video kidzrevil posted above using the Fuji X-T2. Hell if this new one is 15% better looking output wise hell it will be great! I don't see how it Just being 8 bit makes it crap. Hell that is all a Canon 1DC,  a C100, Sony A7s is. I sure as hell would not call those cameras crap!

Yeah it would have been nice to be 10 bit, but I don't think Fuji is as Video crazy as Panasonic is, well hell even Sony has been Holding back, Maybe the Sony A7s mk III will be 10 bit, I think it pretty much has to to save face on the GH5. I was surprised as hell the A7r mk III wasn't 10 bit to be honest. But I sure as hell would take one. It is a Great 8 bit camera. Probably the best overall camera you can buy out there right now.

My dream is a Nikon D850 in a mirrorless body with Sony A7r mk III video specs!! Now that would be some color output 8 bit or not. Come on Nikon hit a home run soon. All we can hope for from Canon on their Mirrorless is 4k with no crop or a Damn little one with a DECENT Codec..

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@webrunner5yup ! My guess is they as well as other manufacturers have figured out how to shift the colors around so it doesn’t create too much visual artifacts. When you think about it there is little to no real world colors that can exceed most color gamuts so thats my theory.

and for the guys that think 8bit cameras are crap they are forgetting the image comes from a 14bit sensor. You gotta be crazy if you think these Fuji colors look unacceptable for client work. I need to meet these peoples clients...spielberg must be one of them 😂

40 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Did you even look at the video kidzrevil posted above using the Fuji X-T2. Hell if this new one is 15% better looking output wise hell it will be great! I don't see how it Just being 8 bit makes it crap. Hell that is all a Canon 1DC,  a C100, Sony A7s is. I sure as hell would not call those cameras crap !

 

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Some manufacturers may be reluctant to enable 10-bit in their consumer cams because they’ve got their higher-end products to protect. Higher bit depth slso entails higher bit rates, greater processing power, better heat management, faster storage with greater capacity, as well as more power. Sony and Fuji are already strugglng with heat dissipation and battery life, so 10-bit is probably not even possible internally. But who knows - @Inazuma may be right - the new body may less appealing than the X-Pro2 - but the larger size and 25% thicker magnesium alloy shell should have helped solve the heat issues. Also, while colorists have always preferred to work with greater bit depths, I’m guessing HDR is even more demanding than SDR in that respect. One last unabashed plug for HDR - while some say they’re waiting for consumers to take to the format, the situation is actually the reverse - it’s content creators who are trailing behind consumer demand! 

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