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Sony Will Announce the A6500

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1 hour ago, tugela said:

Your favorite camera, the XC10...

 

.. so bad that the panels appeared as solid surfaces...

 

..There are also compression artifacts that people call moire as well.

The first part is a lie. Stopp making stuff upp that is obvious you wouldn't know. Its not the first time either. You have no clue to what is my favorite camera. Its like when you based an argument on your interpretation of a guys body language...

 

The second part is you picking cherrys. In the videothe bmpc, lx100, red one, ax100 and many more show the panels just fine without the moire of the nx1.

 

The third part is correct. Many of us have tried to convince people like you for a couple of yers now that compression artifacts isnt the same as moire. Its finally getting through. But sadly, the NX1 has actual dancing and rainbow colored Moire. Not compression artifacts, Moire.

Still a great camera though, but that doesn't mean we must blindly defend every aspect of it like brainwashed fanboys. All cameras have deal breaking flaws and talking about them doesnt make the camera any worse. 

 

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On 07/10/2016 at 4:05 AM, thefactory said:

I use my a6300 mostly for photos these days or b-cam. Main camera is a7sii which i love shooting on. More dials, less fiddling around. I wont be rushing out to buy the 6500 but i'm very much looking forward to these features in a A7riii a7siii or maybe even the rumoured a9 emount. 

 

A peculiar pair...

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr29_0=sony_a7sii&attr29_1=sony_a6300&attr72_0=4k&attr72_1=4k&normalization=full&widget=369&x=0.6309463228602367&y=0.1607126303325922

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Two comments:

Moire: moire is a result of detail that has higher frequencies than the sensor array. It is exacerbated by the bayer array, which means you are sub sampling in odd ways. The only way to get rid of the possibility of moire is to filter out all those frequencies. But the stronger the filter that does this is, the more detail you lose. Sorry, math. Until someone invents a filter that breaks the rules of physics and cuts off frequencies instantly, there will be a detail/moire trade off. That is why what we should really be arguing for is Sony to use the switchable OLPF from the rx1 in more cameras. 

 

Camera release schedules: we have a choice. We can have cameras on a consumer electronics schedule, which means dropping prices and more features for your money, but with rapidly decreasing residual values and something close to built-in obsolescence. Or we can have a model on which things cost more, innovate less, but retain value.  There are benefits to both, and I think we have all felt the pain of spending significant money on something that is no longer the new shiny sooner than we wish. I'd rather just have things as soon as they are ready, instead of waiting four years in the hope of them coming. Why are we complaining when a company delivers the features we've asked for?

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5 minutes ago, AndrewM said:

Two comments:

Moire: moire is a result of detail that has higher frequencies than the sensor array. It is exacerbated by the bayer array, which means you are sub sampling in odd ways. The only way to get rid of the possibility of moire is to filter out all those frequencies. But the stronger the filter that does this is, the more detail you lose. Sorry, math. Until someone invents a filter that breaks the rules of physics and cuts off frequencies instantly, there will be a detail/moire trade off. That is why what we should really be arguing for is Sony to use the switchable OLPF from the rx1 in more cameras. 

 

Camera release schedules: we have a choice. We can have cameras on a consumer electronics schedule, which means dropping prices and more features for your money, but with rapidly decreasing residual values and something close to built-in obsolescence. Or we can have a model on which things cost more, innovate less, but retain value.  There are benefits to both, and I think we have all felt the pain of spending significant money on something that is no longer the new shiny sooner than we wish. I'd rather just have things as soon as they are ready, instead of waiting four years in the hope of them coming. Why are we complaining when a company delivers the features we've asked for?

On a sidenote: Don't know if it was mentioned already but Fuji's X-Trans sensor was developed to help with moiré, it's not magic but still something.

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http://www.gsmarena.com/oppo_r9s_to_be_unveiled_on_october_19_new_sony_imx_398_camera_sensor_to_debut_on_it-news-20969.php

Quote

Apparently, the smartphone's camera will be based on a new Sony-made IMX398 sensor ... the source states that the sensor is a 16MP dual-pixel affair (similar to the 12MP Samsung Galaxy S7 camera).

Maybe we can expect a new dual pixel sensor and the A6700 in about 8 months, don't buy into this A6500 mumbo jumbo (I know IMX398 is a tiny sensor, but the tech is now available to Sony).

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3 hours ago, AndrewM said:

Camera release schedules: we have a choice. We can have cameras on a consumer electronics schedule, which means dropping prices and more features for your money, but with rapidly decreasing residual values and something close to built-in obsolescence. Or we can have a model on which things cost more, innovate less, but retain value.  There are benefits to both, and I think we have all felt the pain of spending significant money on something that is no longer the new shiny sooner than we wish. I'd rather just have things as soon as they are ready, instead of waiting four years in the hope of them coming. Why are we complaining when a company delivers the features we've asked for?

There is also a third model which I think Sony has taken (it's also quite a new approach). Don't you think Sony delivers features but a lot of the time they're not 100% reliable like on Canikons? They're unreliable to the point that some people after initial OHs and WOWs switch back. The third model is based around Lean startup method in which you intentionally release lower quality products in order to improve them later on.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_startup). The idea is to get a "good enough" product on the market ASAP and improve it over time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_startup#Minimum_viable_product). This way you can release cutting edge technologies earlier and more often, cut the costs (less testing time etc) and get feedback from customers earlier. The downsides we all know, don't we ;)? We're all unpaid beta testers all the time in a way. There is also something called split testing in which "different versions of a product are offered to customers at the same time" - sounds familiar, doesn't it? 

It'll be interesting to see which model will come out first in the end, though!

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On 10/7/2016 at 3:24 AM, SR said:

Goddamn these NX1 freaks and their irresistibly fabulous cameras!

ask yourself why nx1 has so many fanboys although it has many weak points ? maybe it has to with unmatched image detail at this price point ? (we all agree that detail is not the only thing to consider but we can also all agree it is on the top 3 of the list for image quality with color and DR ) - here is a reminder of detail of a6300 vs nx1 (a6500 wont have better details than nx1 although they will have a 2year+ difference ).

) ? 

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23 minutes ago, amanieux said:
On 7/10/2016 at 0:24 PM, SR said:

Goddamn these NX1 freaks and their irresistibly fabulous cameras!

ask yourself why nx1 has so many fanboys although it has many weak points ? maybe it has to with unmatched image detail at this price point ? it was out 18 months before the a6300 and did not have heat issues even though it does a more compute intensive compression - here is a reminder of detail of a6300 vs nx1 (a6500 wont have better details than nx1 even they will have a 2year+ difference ).

) ? 

The nx1 is at least at 2+ years ahead in pure hw. The processors inside are far more advanced than any camera on the market even today, simply because Samsung had plenty of those quad core hexynos to use in anything, from whashing machines to tvs.

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5 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

http://www.gsmarena.com/oppo_r9s_to_be_unveiled_on_october_19_new_sony_imx_398_camera_sensor_to_debut_on_it-news-20969.php

Maybe we can expect a new dual pixel sensor and the A6700 in about 8 months, don't buy into this A6500 mumbo jumbo (I know IMX398 is a tiny sensor, but the tech is now available to Sony).

No. The tech is licensed to Samsung, who have contracted Sony to manufacture some of their sensors (tech licenses generally allow the licensee to do this). Sony don't have the license (and probably won't get one either), so they can't use the technology in their own products.

This might actually be the reason why Samsung got out of cameras btw. Their cameras were not a big money maker, but cell phones are. I think that part of the license deal with Canon was that they could use DPAF in their cell phones, but they had to stop competing in the camera sector to get access to the tech. It would be a win/win situation for both companies. Samsung would have been in a position to give their money maker an edge in its market and have an excuse to drop a minor product that was not contributing to their bottom line, while Canon would get royalties and eliminate competition that was siphoning market share from their flagship products.

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10 hours ago, hmcindie said:

If a camera uses the same sensor as a previous camera, odds are that the rolling shutter is 100% same. They could basically just invent words for their press releases and we would not be any wiser. Instead of BSI it's HBI or instead of copper interconnects it's gold! But I've never seen the same sensor operate with a different speed in different cameras. They could speed up the RS but only by skipping fields or cropping in.

Not necessarily. The sensor read speed may be dictated by what the processor can handle, which means that a faster processor could perform the read at higher rates. The NX1 sensor for example can be read at 240 fps, but the processor can't come anywhere close to being able to handle that amount of data and bottlenecks somewhere just north of 30 fps in 4K. As a result of that you have limitations on how much RS and frame rate can be improved in 4K with that system. Improvements in processor capabilities would increase frame rate and reduce RS. The same thing applies to Sony and Panasonic cameras. The biggest obstacle to improved performance are the processors, and as newer generations with higher performance come along we can expect to see higher specs.

 

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5 hours ago, tugela said:

Not necessarily. The sensor read speed may be dictated by what the processor can handle, which means that a faster processor could perform the read at higher rates. The NX1 sensor for example can be read at 240 fps, but the processor can't come anywhere close to being able to handle that amount of data and bottlenecks somewhere just north of 30 fps in 4K. As a result of that you have limitations on how much RS and frame rate can be improved in 4K with that system. Improvements in processor capabilities would increase frame rate and reduce RS. The same thing applies to Sony and Panasonic cameras. The biggest obstacle to improved performance are the processors, and as newer generations with higher performance come along we can expect to see higher specs.

If the NX1 has a smartphone processor, what kind of processors are inside the Red and Arri to handle crazy resolutions along with converting them into compressed raw?

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NX cameras have the only 28mgpxls BSI APS-C sensor, two years ago; plus DIS (Canon makes it really a big deal on the latest M, just saying), the right form factor for serious use, amazing battery life for a mirrorless, the best UI and OS (of course this is subjective), a right collection of lenses for some of us, the right codec(H265) for some of us (and for all, pretty soon), no heat problems, a breath of new life fror the second best mod/hack scene in the industry, 15fps, some cool AF tricks, best connectivity options in industry (used too, I do not know if there is anything better now), best touch screens (others catching up here too), and a few other things.

What's not to like? Oh, yes, they have exited the market for good..and no RAW video.

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2 hours ago, Kisaha said:

NX cameras have the only 28mgpxls BSI APS-C sensor, two years ago; plus DIS (Canon makes it really a big deal on the latest M, just saying), the right form factor for serious use, amazing battery life for a mirrorless, the best UI and OS (of course this is subjective), a right collection of lenses for some of us, the right codec(H265) for some of us (and for all, pretty soon), no heat problems, a breath of new life fror the second best mod/hack scene in the industry, 15fps, some cool AF tricks, best connectivity options in industry (used too, I do not know if there is anything better now), best touch screens (others catching up here too), and a few other things.

What's not to like? Oh, yes, they have exited the market for good..and no RAW video.

I'm sure that when finally sony or others will implement a fast enough processor for handling h.265 compression in real time, ppl will be happy.

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13 minutes ago, Marco Tecno said:

What about 4k?

Last part. Listen: people are hysterical about RS, high ISOs and so on. There, you/we/you all have access to a good lesson how to properly use that capture device, even handheld... shooter oblige ;-)

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