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GH5 Prototype


sanveer
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9 hours ago, Cary Knoop said:

Modern monitors should have no problems using refresh rates for 24p or 23.976p.

This is true, but the monitor refresh rate doesn't change just because you're playing a video on it.

The refresh rate stays high (60-120hz, variable depending on settings, card, etc...) and the video is displayed at the closest frame interval that matches. You have to be using custom hardware out (like a BlackMagic mini monitor or other dedicated video apparatus, or set your video card's output explicitly) to drive a monitor at a dedicated refresh rate that matches the frame rate of your project.

So, yes, if you're doing that and you set the output of that device to a matching frame rate, the monitor will adjust, absolutely. But if you're viewing it in, say, the preview or fullscreen window of Premiere on your standard desktop monitor, it doesn't change the refresh rate of your monitor to match, it applies pulldown and/or frame blending rate conversion to match the current monitor refresh rate of that display. This keeps your UI working smoothly while video of differing frame rates plays back. Play a 24p and a 30p video side by side on your display and watch, it's quite obvious. 

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Idk, I will probably get slammed for saying this, but I totally get the phrase "cinematic motion cadence" and "filmic." The problem is that those terms are rarely quantifiable, so some people hate the phrases. But when you look at footage from BM cameras or Mark iii with ML, etc... there is a certain rhythm to the movement or weight to the image that feels more cinematic and less video.

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I always had a problem with that in the GH4, myself.  It was subtle but I could always spot it.  

Without doing any tests or really even paying attention to it, I will say, that I didn't notice it in the latest iteration.  That's about the best gauge I have, looked good to my eyes and at first glance.

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@mercer I think we're all in agreement that it exists, if in perception only. It may mean different things to different people. Personally, in the (admittedly unscientific) studies I've done on the subject, it's got to do with things like precise frame timing, proper frame exposure (there was a bug in the original C300 - not sure if it's still there, I haven't shot on that camera in a while - where footage shot as 24p would always have a 1/60 shutter speed, reducing motion blur from the expected 1/48 by enough that was noticeable - it made all the footage feel slightly less "smooth", for instance), and of course ensuring that playback was at a matching frame rate. For others, it's got more to do with colour, for others, bokeh or lack thereof, film grain or noise "feel", and the anamorphic effects, etc. etc. and of course any/all of these in combination. This subject has been beaten to death and we could still talk about it, but I think it really comes down to how you, personally, define it, and whether or not you can, in post, create that effect or if it's purely the result of the in-camera hardware and encoding. 

That said, I'd argue you could make stuff that very nearly everyone except a small percentage of other filmmakers finds entirely "cinematic" or "filmic" with nearly any decent video-capable camera these days, and that it's not as much of a hardware thing as people think. Can you do it on all cameras, straight off the card, in available light? Not easily, and certainly not with as much success. 

My personal perspective on the whole thing is that we've failed to carry forward actual cinema production technique and style and values. The importance of lighting and light modifiers. The use of colour for symbolism and message. The practice of motion. The importance of DOF (not low-DOF) and when/how to use it. Traditional framing versus unconventional. The language of editing. The incredible contributions of the art dept. (even if it's just one person) and wardrobe/makeup. Having a good colourist. To me, these contribute FAR FAR more to the feeling of "cinematic" or "filmic" than any of the gear you shoot with or what LUTs you slap on the footage, and my own eyes, in blind viewings, have held that up so far.

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1 hour ago, studiodc said:

This is true, but the monitor refresh rate doesn't change just because you're playing a video on it.

Not if you setup your system properly. 

There are several ways to change it based on the footage.  I use madVR but there are alternatives as well.

And obviously for professional editing and coloring you should use at least two monitors. One for the UI using the GPU and another one using a dedicated video card like the Decklink for the actual Video output. 

 

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Speaking of motion cadence and shutter speed/angle, I have a quick question... I recently picked up the FZ2500 and I have been testing the VFR options. When you use the VFR with the GH4, if you are using a shutter angle of 180 degrees for 24p, what do you use if you have the VFR set to 72fps, 96fps, 120fps? It seems like it's encoded in a 24p wrapper, so do you stick with 180 degree shutter?

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2 hours ago, mercer said:

Speaking of motion cadence and shutter speed/angle, I have a quick question... I recently picked up the FZ2500 and I have been testing the VFR options. When you use the VFR with the GH4, if you are using a shutter angle of 180 degrees for 24p, what do you use if you have the VFR set to 72fps, 96fps, 120fps? It seems like it's encoded in a 24p wrapper, so do you stick with 180 degree shutter?

 
 

yes, a 180° shutter angle will maintain it relative to framerate. if you were dealing with shutter speed, on the otherhand, then you'd want to manually adjust it to match your framerate: 24fps and 1/48, 120fps and 1/240, and so on. of course you can divert from this for creative reasons.

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4 minutes ago, Zak Forsman said:

yes, a 180° shutter angle will maintain it relative to framerate. if you were dealing with shutter speed, on the otherhand, then you'd want to manually adjust it to match your framerate: 24fps and 1/48, 120fps and 1/240, and so on. of course you can divert from this for creative reasons.

Ok, thanks. Derr... makes sense... brain fart moment. Lol.

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4 hours ago, Neumann Films said:

I always had a problem with that in the GH4, myself.  It was subtle but I could always spot it.  

Without doing any tests or really even paying attention to it, I will say, that I didn't notice it in the latest iteration.  That's about the best gauge I have, looked good to my eyes and at first glance.

Hi Luke,

I've really enjoyed your music and color grading tutorials.  Can you offer an opinion about the GH5 color science yet?

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GH5 will ship March 4th according to one source at 43Rumors. Since I already purchased the G85 and XT2 my enthusiasm is somewhat dampened. The 4K 60p is interesting because, like everyone else, I like slo mo; 10 bit 4:2:2 less so because I never do any heavy grading, just some color correction and a little LUT, usually no more than 15%. I'm not expecting any great shakes re: continuous autofocus or low light performance. And Panasonic colors have been consistently meh. Is anyone else seriously expecting Panasonic to rock your world? 

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@Vesku are you prepared to spend upwards of $2000.000 USD to upgrade from the GH4?  And what if the dynamic range, continuous autofocus and low light performance were no better than the G85? Excessive noise reduction, oversharpening to the point of destroying detail? Come on, you've been going on about this forever, I'm on your side now. ???

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Just now, jonpais said:

@Vesku are you prepared to spend upwards of $2000.000 USD to upgrade from the GH4?  And what if the dynamic range, continuous focus and low light performance were no better than the G85? Excessive noise reduction, oversharpening to the point of destroying detail? Come on, you've been going on about this forever, I'm on your side now. ???

GH5 will have full sensor down sampled 4k video. It will be cleaner than previous models, something like Sony A6500. GH4 JPGs from RAW are so good that with enough processing power even the GH4 sensor is good enough for brilliant video. Continuous AF in video should also be much better with more processing power. At 4k 60P the AF is faster because the camera gets 60 samples/second to compare contrast. I hope they give an updated (sharper) EVF and some fixes for usability.

I think it will be $2500 in Finland. It really must be much better than GH4.

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6 hours ago, jonpais said:

10 bit 4:2:2 less so because I never do any heavy grading, just some color correction and a little LUT, usually no more than 15%.

If, and that is a big if, the GH5 is true 10 bit, it should have a significantly higher image quality. I say true 8 bit because if it is the same sensor as the latest GX and G cameras I believe the S/N ratio will be too low to have true 10 bit.  You might as well take an 8 bit camera and dither it to 10 bit with Gaussian noise.

Nevertheless I will soon be on the pre-order bandwagon!

By the way I think the end of 8 bit video is on the horizon.  In a year from now I predict that all new pro and prosumer cameras will be 10 bit cameras supporting HDR.

 

 

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Well if it is like the EM1 mkII low light and DR will not be much better. And that is where it fell on it's ass before. Those are really 2 things I want the most to BE better. :grimace: I like the idea of the 6k photo, and better AF and IBIS nice also. But Low light and DR is what makes a Video camera work for you including a better Codec, which it looks like we may get an improved Codec. That is good.

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