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Canon EOS R5 - What Panasonic, Sony and Fuji can do to fight THE 8K BEAST

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1 hour ago, Django said:

Product page is up:

https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/

No new spec info but interesting they are touting R5 as their “professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera”.

Lets hope that means little to no compromises!

Yes, but I think before anything it means Canon will place a price at level of newest C-type camera line. It looks to me as finally proper, open and fair strategy - to give everything what/how is possible from their side (at least to that flagship model) to both lines without crippling anything, but also without any compromise regarding price. Who wants movie quality plus best photography may choose photo camera-form, who needs all of movie making adds can choose camcorder body. If it so, I like and cheer such strategy very much mostly because of its openness. Who estimate photo camera body as advantage for usage, and could afford 5-6000 price and get the best possible with Canon quality and reliability  - why not? Of course, expecting number of such is very debatable.

Regarding announcing, as far as I see, there's no anything important for film making but two words - 8k and IBIS. In it I see evolution of recent trend war of announcing as in advance as possible - with logical goal regarding blocking competition. Announce that something is under development stadium, even without any notion what exact implementation is target (especially without any sign of when it could be finished) becomes today way of using perception of time as profitable material. Which is very interesting argument for Jean Baudrillard-line of thinking.

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7 hours ago, Super8 said:

The GH5 was good but that 10 bit 422 wasn't really great quality compared to what BMP4K is getting out of that sensor. No sure Sigma is close to anything. Can you provide links to great Sigma footage?

It's all about full frame right now.

Sigma has come close to offering an affordable package that gives you everything you'd need. No compressed RAW or good auto focus though or intermediate codec. 

Full frame is cool as it gives an edge in low light. At some point that will no longer matter and sensor size will become pretty irrelevant. 

Once someone comes out with the equivalent of an S1H with Canon like auto focus there won't be need for much more for most people, especially if it has compressed RAW as well. 

In terms of more professional filmaking there really isn't a huge drive for better cameras. Its really this one man band stuff that is pushing the innovation imho. There will come a point when the one man band has everything he needs and that will drive down innovation as there simply won't be a demand for more. 

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6 hours ago, Django said:

Product page is up:

https://www.canon.co.uk/cameras/eos-r5/

No new spec info but interesting they are touting R5 as their “professional full frame mirrorless flagship camera”.

Lets hope that means little to no compromises!

Hopefully this section...

Quote

Be the filmmaker

Commit your best work to stunning 8K video and relish the prospect of exciting new possibilities for creative capture. At such a high resolution, EOS R5 allows you to fully expand the genre of filmmaking and explore dynamic new ways of telling your story.

...means that the 8K video mode is actually going to be something usable, rather than something along the lines of the 1080p20 mode that Canon gave us with the EOS 500D way back when, or the 4k15 mode that appeared in the final few Nikon 1 cameras before the plug got pulled on that line.

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38 minutes ago, David Bowgett said:

Hopefully this section...

...means that the 8K video mode is actually going to be something usable, rather than something along the lines of the 1080p20 mode that Canon gave us with the EOS 500D way back when, or the 4k15 mode that appeared in the final few Nikon 1 cameras before the plug got pulled on that line.

As a "pro flagship" camera I think you can expect much much better specs than a 500D or Nikon 1 ever intended to have. 

Price point will also go accordingly. Those hoping for 8K 12:1 compressed RAW / ProRes / 10-bit 444 for $1,999 are going to be thoroughly disappointed.

When Canon introduced 4K with the 1DC in 2012 for $15,000... it was MJPEG and 1.3x crop.

That said I'm pretty confident we're looking at $3,500-4,500 tops. This camera sits in between a 5D & 1DX.

Above $5K they are pricing themselves out of the market. 8K/12K or whatever included.

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My guess is it'll be priced around $4000, this is a9 territory photo-wise with video specs that put the smackdown on every E-mount camera available today. Yes I know we don't have a lot of info, but IBIS and 40-something MP is perfect. If they're positioning it as a pro body, it'll be priced accordingly. I'd expect the 5dmk5 to be a little cheaper, with the requisite price hike over the previous model.

The a7r4 didn't get any improvement on the video side, and I seriously doubt the a74 will see significant improvements either. Judging by the recent a6x00's mild refresh it'll just get active tracking, more weather sealing (maybe, this is a base model) and a better EVF. I've already sold off my a73 and a few lenses and the rest is going up soon. I'm heading back to canon after dumping my 5d3 for the a7/a7s many moons ago. My company has a 5d4 and a few Canon lenses so its going to make a transition pretty easy. Beyond the OVF, its a great camera to shoot with, but I still can't nail exposure shooting stills like I can with a EVF. Currently looking for a cheap, used EOS R...

Chris

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My greatest impression - thanks to @Django - is that now we have option to check I wish it button at one of the official selling page. Moreover, that button being located somehow under title information about Being developed (without info when, no really what, except misty alluring descriptions)... It's so funny that, in all market uncertainty, giants started to behave at crowdfunding  manner or as political opinion polls before elections.

When at march  2018. Blackmagic made their announce for 9 month in advance, it was for me like very cheeky behavior conceived to prevent buying cameras from other manufacturers (I noted that it will open Pandora's box of announcing) - at that time it was commonly to all (not just camera, but computer etc also) industry to announce full specs and fixed date 3-4 months ago, not so rarely even publishing preproduction tests or - symbolically - showing body under the naive, pure, poetic veil as Eva1. Do you remember those not far away days?

Now such behavior, when Petty went out with preproduction model showing how BM writes to USB-C disk and full list of promises seems as fairy tale. Look at us - actually we are talking about our own assumptions build over assumed possibilities judged by Canon previous strategy... inside of topic that call for our assumption of what Panasonic Sony etc can do regarding these assumptions squared chaos. Imho little bit as specs-addicted-zombis in some Twilight zone :)

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The R5 may very likely end up with 1DXM3 specs and a 3,999 price tag. Think of it as Canon’s flagship mirrorless camera.

The 1DX is a whole other market segment. It’s primary a pro sports camera with fast shutters and an optical viewfinder for all people that just don’t care to switch to mirrorless.

The R5 is for the wedding photographers/videographers that don’t need speed so much as a reliable autofocusing hybrid. The R6 will be for more casual shooters who want something more than a Rebel but don’t want to shell out 4K + 2K for a body lens combo.

I think canon understands not many people hand a DSLR form factor anymore. 

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22 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

The R5 may very likely end up with 1DXM3 specs and a 3,999 price tag. Think of it as Canon’s flagship mirrorless camera.

But 1DXM3 has better specs than S1H that is 4000?

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1 hour ago, Video Hummus said:

The R5 may very likely end up with 1DXM3 specs and a 3,999 price tag. Think of it as Canon’s flagship mirrorless camera.

The 1DX is a whole other market segment. It’s primary a pro sports camera with fast shutters and an optical viewfinder for all people that just don’t care to switch to mirrorless.

The R5 is for the wedding photographers/videographers that don’t need speed so much as a reliable autofocusing hybrid. The R6 will be for more casual shooters who want something more than a Rebel but don’t want to shell out 4K + 2K for a body lens combo.

I think canon understands not many people hand a DSLR form factor anymore. 

Agreed. 1DX will remain its own thing.

I think the R5 is the new 5D & R6 the new 6D. 

That said R5 with its high MP & class-leading 8K resolution really places it in a "flagship" position in the market right now.

A lot of new tech from Canon is being put into this camera (IBIS, new sensor, new processor, 8K..) so price wise I'm expecting something in between a 5D & 1DX.

But who knows. I doubt we will get FF 8K no crop in RAW or 10-bit. If they do, price will be astronomical.

Personally, I'm just looking forward to nice oversampled no crop 4K in a solid codec.  8K is really just gravy on top.

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If this new "king shit" r5 has legit 8k without crazy crippling and stills performance that rivals the A7r4/low end digital medium format - $10,000 doesn't seem insane. $5000 or $6000 seems more reasonable.

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13 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Sigma has come close to offering an affordable package that gives you everything you'd need. No compressed RAW or good auto focus though or intermediate codec. 

Full frame is cool as it gives an edge in low light. At some point that will no longer matter and sensor size will become pretty irrelevant. 

Once someone comes out with the equivalent of an S1H with Canon like auto focus there won't be need for much more for most people, especially if it has compressed RAW as well. 

In terms of more professional filmaking there really isn't a huge drive for better cameras. Its really this one man band stuff that is pushing the innovation imho. There will come a point when the one man band has everything he needs and that will drive down innovation as there simply won't be a demand for more. 

Of course there is demand for better professional cinema cameras.  Why would you make that comment?  Unless you think only real cinematographers use Arri and Arri alone?

RED does not produce Arri color and neither do the other companies. This is the goal and do it at a reasonable price. 

 

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3 hours ago, Super8 said:

RED does not produce Arri color and neither do the other companies. 

 

Which is totally fine, at the end of the color is a subjective choice.

If Red wanted their footage to look just like Arri they would have done it by now. 

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4 hours ago, Super8 said:

Of course there is demand for better professional cinema cameras.  Why would you make that comment?  Unless you think only real cinematographers use Arri and Arri alone?

RED does not produce Arri color and neither do the other companies. This is the goal and do it at a reasonable price. 

 

Arri basically dominates the field completely whether it be motion picture or commercial. RED is still looked at as a compromise by most people. I wouldn't say RED is very innovative at this point anyways. At least in the narrative creative field, sports and stuff like that is different of course. DOC work is a bit different as it is often one man band or close to it in comparison with hollywood sets. You see more Canon being shot with Doc work. Hollywood is pretty slow to change as you really don't need much more than what an Arri offers when you have access to a crew to operate a camera. 

Something like the URSA mini is completely capable of most jobs that are being shot on Arris. But if its high end work an Arri is still expected. 

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Really hope that all the R5 expectations be fulfilled.

But it is interesting that all after these years of crippling, everyone is believing in a magic cam from Canon with amazing specs, and even already stating that will sell all their gear to come back to Canon...

I think that a more cautious approach would be wise, and hold the excitement until the specs are confirmed.

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10 hours ago, thebrothersthre3 said:

Arri basically dominates the field completely whether it be motion picture or commercial. RED is still looked at as a compromise by most people. I wouldn't say RED is very innovative at this point anyways. At least in the narrative creative field, sports and stuff like that is different of course. DOC work is a bit different as it is often one man band or close to it in comparison with hollywood sets. You see more Canon being shot with Doc work. Hollywood is pretty slow to change as you really don't need much more than what an Arri offers when you have access to a crew to operate a camera. 

Something like the URSA mini is completely capable of most jobs that are being shot on Arris. But if its high end work an Arri is still expected. 

The URSA can't hold a candle to Arri. What quality do you sacrifice by using the URSA vs an Arri ?

 

It also depends on the budget for the commercials being produced.  The FS7 is used a lot and so are RED's, so I don't think Arri dominates on the commercial side because of reduced budgets. 

If you're making the next bond film are you going Arri or with the URSA mini ? It's laughable that you would even bring uo the URSA mini.

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45 minutes ago, Super8 said:

The URSA can't hold a candle to Arri. What quality do you sacrifice by using the URSA vs an Arri ?

 

It also depends on the budget for the commercials being produced.  The FS7 is used a lot and so are RED's, so I don't think Arri dominates on the commercial side because of reduced budgets. 

If you're making the next bond film are you going Arri or with the URSA mini ? It's laughable that you would even bring uo the URSA mini.

Despite them having a really nice image from what I've heard Ursa's aren't nearly as reliable/durable as other picks like alexa for cinema use and Sony F5/F55 for high end doc/TV etc. 

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