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Andrew Reid

The video that shows Blackmagic Pocket 4K RAW image quality is same as GH5S 400Mbit

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I guessed correctly after a couple of seconds skipping through the AB comparison. Skin quality and skin tones on the P4K are better. The sharpening in the tree foliage is also obvious on the GH5s ... Quite a big difference IMO.

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I feel like this is also so dependent on how you want to use your camera. Anything released in 2019 and on has great quality, but there's more to a camera. I've never used a GH5, but do use an XT3 and while the codecs are of course very different, editing with the files from the P4K is quicker than with h264, and of course h265 is even harder. Having an edit ready format SOOC is very valuable for me. BRAW even edits easier than h264, but is much easier to adjust the image - if you even want to. Braw can now embed custom LUTs, so your SOOC files can look however you want them to. That's another big bonus that only BMD offer.

Then there's audio inputs. If you want to record internal audio from an XLR mic, you need the adapter box for the GH5/s - isn't that the same as mounting an NPF battery onto the P4K? Essentially, the same solution for different 'problems'.

They're both great cameras, neither are better than the other, it just depends what you want your camera to do.

(also both these videos are a year old or more... how come they're here now?)

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7 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

As long as you white balance in linear gamma, I've found no benefit to shooting raw in terms of ability to white balance in post.

This.

I've found an ACES workflow to be a revelation in terms of fixing WB and exposure issues with relative impunity for GH5 10bit.

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1 hour ago, hyalinejim said:

This.

I've found an ACES workflow to be a revelation in terms of fixing WB and exposure issues with relative impunity for GH5 10bit.

I'm curious, how are you using ACES with the GH5? Afaik there is no IDT for it?

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36 minutes ago, seku said:

I'm curious, how are you using ACES with the GH5? Afaik there is no IDT for it?

That's a fact, Panasonic did not release an IDT, they say the GH5 is not compatible with ACES. Bullshit.

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16 minutes ago, Attila Bakos said:

That's a fact, Panasonic did not release an IDT, they say the GH5 is not compatible with ACES. Bullshit.

Are you using the Panasonic IDT and finding that it does a really good job?

If so, I wouldn't be surprised.  Anyone who has spent any time grading (or colour matching) different gamma/colour spaces will know how similar they really are to each other.  Both Log and Linear are mathematical terms used to describe certain functions.  Sensors 'see' in Linear, and then encode to Log (assuming that's how you're recording) and although they do differ in subtle ways, both in deviating from a mathematical Log curve as well as doing 'nice' things to the colours, I'd recommend people to get some Log footage and then convert it to 709 using different input profiles and see what differences there are.  Many of the settings are so similar that when you click on the new one there is so little change that you wonder if you hit the right buttons...

For the GH5 I've been playing with both the HLG.2020 and HLG.2100 profiles and getting a decent look from both in various circumstances.

 

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1 minute ago, kye said:

Are you using the Panasonic IDT and finding that it does a really good job?

It's likely that I see this differently than most people. I don't have a Panasonic camera but I build IDT's, among other stuff, so small differences matter to me a lot.

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I own the GH5, GH5s and Pocket 4K.  Despite the limitations of the Pocket 4K, I shoot with it as my primary camera for various reasons

Colour Science is better... the image looks superior in the majority of shots.  Blackmagic colour science is better.  Sure there are some shots where it is hard to tell the difference, but equally I find many where the BM is the clear winner.

BRAW... for me less about pushing the image and more about speed of editing and the flexibility to change ISO and White balance in post.  Sure, I get it right most of the time, but the are moments, where I do not for various reasons and this is such a bonus.  I hate editing H264 files now after editing BRAW.

Better menus.  

Punch in focus during recording

Larger screen.  Even fixed, it's so much easier to shoot with.

Being able to shoot 75 fps in 2.40 aspect ratio or 60fps in 16.9 without loss of quality. On the GH5s you are stuck with 8 bit 60fps.  

Being able to record to an SSD.  That has helped a lot when editing at venues I am filming at for a rough cut.  Also on CFast cards, which feel solid to hold.  SD cards are so flimsy and I have had to retire a few for falling apart 

Application of LUTs is much better.  You can embed and have more to choose from.  

Mini XLR input.  

I should point out, I've been using Panasonic for 8 years and have been a huge supporter of their cameras.  The GH5 and GH5s still get used on nearly every jobs I am doing.  Usually as B cameras, though the GH5 steps in if filming in wet weather or where IBIS is needed.  They are great cameras, but I love the Pocket 4K more despite the limitations.  

 

 

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I have a GH5S. It’s a great camera. I do wish Panasonic would have payed more attention to it to make it more competitive, feature wise. The sensor is clearly capable of a bit more since it shares the same sensor in the P4K, Terra4K, Zcam E2...

I think however, it being built on top of the GH5 platform and not given more leg room put it at a disadvantage.

I still bought mine after seeing the P4K release because I value the weather sealing and build quality.

I would say despite the FF hysteria the little MFT sensor in these cameras proved to be very popular and met the needs and wants of those that bought the cameras.

With the success of the P4K I think it has shown that their is a demand for a MFT camera that has IBIS, a dual gain sensor, and a bit more power features for those that need them: ProRes, RAW, 4K60p+.

im hopefully Panasonic will make the GH6 that camera.

I don’t think their will be another MFT BM camera.

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50 minutes ago, SteveV4D said:

I own the GH5, GH5s and Pocket 4K.  Despite the limitations of the Pocket 4K, I shoot with it as my primary camera for various reasons

Colour Science is better... the image looks superior in the majority of shots.  Blackmagic colour science is better.  Sure there are some shots where it is hard to tell the difference, but equally I find many where the BM is the clear winner.

BRAW... for me less about pushing the image and more about speed of editing and the flexibility to change ISO and White balance in post.  Sure, I get it right most of the time, but the are moments, where I do not for various reasons and this is such a bonus.  I hate editing H264 files now after editing BRAW.

Better menus.  

Punch in focus during recording

Larger screen.  Even fixed, it's so much easier to shoot with.

Being able to shoot 75 fps in 2.40 aspect ratio or 60fps in 16.9 without loss of quality. On the GH5s you are stuck with 8 bit 60fps.  

Being able to record to an SSD.  That has helped a lot when editing at venues I am filming at for a rough cut.  Also on CFast cards, which feel solid to hold.  SD cards are so flimsy and I have had to retire a few for falling apart 

Application of LUTs is much better.  You can embed and have more to choose from.  

Mini XLR input.  

I should point out, I've been using Panasonic for 8 years and have been a huge supporter of their cameras.  The GH5 and GH5s still get used on nearly every jobs I am doing.  Usually as B cameras, though the GH5 steps in if filming in wet weather or where IBIS is needed.  They are great cameras, but I love the Pocket 4K more despite the limitations.  

 

 

Some good points here and all valid.

Colour science with RAW is easy to get right straight off the bat, with V-LOG or any LOG for that matter, it's easy to mishandle it. Put wrong LUT on and it's going to look terrible compared to RAW on default settings in Resolve.

I don't agree colour science is lacking in V-LOG or BT.2100 though. Very wide gamut, and the Vari-Cam it's based on won tons of plaudits for colour.

I also much prefer the Rec.709 colour styles on the GH5 and GH5S to Sony's, much nicer skintones and more natural.

Equally there are valid reasons to choose Pocket 4K, there are valid reasons to choose GH5 or GH5S instead. So it depends on needs of the shooter.

  • The H.264 or H.265 files can be edited in any NLE, you are not pushed into Resolve like with BRAW
  • Really well specced Anamorphic mode
  • Articulated screen
  • Built in EVF
  • IBIS on the GH5
  • Battery life
  • Reliability
  • Media is cheaper if you select the lower bitrate codecs or 8bit
  • The stills side / hybrid use
  • Better physical controls (I do agree menus are better on Blackmagic, a little over-complicated on the Panasonic but you do get used to it)
  • Much more fully featured

I do not like to rig my small cameras up very much so adding EVF to Pocket 4K is not for me, really.

I would say with the Blackmagic you are getting a good image, a good codec, and a big screen with excellent menus (apart from the fact it's barely visible in day light), but everything else about the camera is as cheap and uninspired as you can get, especially how power hungry it is. A sensor in a box really, as far as ergonomics go.

Blackmagic need to up their game with the small cameras.

25 minutes ago, Video Hummus said:

With the success of the P4K I think it has shown that their is a demand for a MFT camera that has IBIS, a dual gain sensor, and a bit more power features for those that need them: ProRes, RAW, 4K60p+.

im hopefully Panasonic will make the GH6 that camera.

All Panasonic need to do is develop a good compressed RAW codec with sensible file sizes and 12bit image quality, and license ProRes for internal recording, absorb the costs into the increased price of the GH6 and it'll be a total winner that blows Blackmagic away.

ProRes and RAW are the main reasons people shoot Blackmagic.

Take those a way and why do it?

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9 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

All Panasonic need to do is develop a good compressed RAW codec with sensible file sizes and 12bit image quality, and license ProRes for internal recording, absorb the costs into the increased price of the GH6 and it'll be a total winner that blows Blackmagic away.

ProRes and RAW are the main reasons people shoot Blackmagic.

Take those a way and why do it?

I agree.

Perhaps REDs licensing terms are extreme and don’t make business sense for anybody. Otherwise would would have seen internal RAW by now, even if it was like $200 per unit sold or 20% per unit sold.

What did Canon get out of The RED RF deal? Clearly no compressed RAW in the 1DXM3. Perhaps they just don’t get sued. 

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Have you seen how much free open source software is in a Japanese camera?

Maybe it is a mindset... Software not important. Hardware important.

Won't pay for software, got to do it on the cheap.

Panasonic should talk to Apple and RED, and simply pass costs onto customer. I'd happily pay a bit more for ProRes and REDcode in GH6.

H.264 was always seen as a consumer or streaming codec. It is terrible marketing.

A ProRes badge on box immediately talks to creatives and pros... And besides more importantly it's a great codec, easy to edit, smooth, brilliant image quality.

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1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

ProRes and RAW are the main reasons people shoot Blackmagic.

Take those a way and why do it?

For the majority of people who buy Blackmagic's pocket 4k, I speculate in addition to the above, it's also cost.  It's priced perfectly.  It's priced cheaply enough film students can buy it undercutting a lot of other cameras.  Also professionals with money can add it to their bag w/o much pain.  Adding IBIS, tilt screen, better battery, better build, etc. would just increase the price which would reduce its market attractiveness.  After all, just look at the gh5s and the pocket 4k.  The market has spoken.  The market as a whole would rather buy the pocket 4k even with it's "flaws" vs the more expensive gh5s which has the better build, etc.

The people at blackmagic knows what they are doing (with "their ears on the ground", they even participate on this forum).  They are geniuses at giving what the market ultimately want... and as a small company, they have to since they are competing against very, very big companies (canon, nikon, sony, etc.)  One small mistake, and it's bankruptcy.

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Should we expect the GH6 in 2020?

I don't think many GH5 owners are jumping to the S1 / S1H line up like Panasonic thought they would.  I think GH5 owners are waiting on the Gh6 or have switch to the BMP4K m4/3 set up.

 

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4 hours ago, seku said:

I'm curious, how are you using ACES with the GH5? Afaik there is no IDT for it?

I use 2 instances of OpenColorIO in AE, then pop it back to VLog and use a custom lut I designed for Gh5 VLog based on Portra 400. 

It means I can make WB and exposure adjustments in ACES where AE's legacy brightness control +15 = 1 stop and CC Color Offset does global WB. Then it's back to VLog, then my lut. It's a bit cumbersome so I only do it when I'm feeling fancy. I haven't yet found a way of doing accurate corrections to VLog in Rec709 space.

So it's not a fully ACES compliant workflow, but the ability to make accurate corrections when in ACES space...

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2 minutes ago, seku said:

Usually only transform v-log to linear and back in resolve for printer lights WB

I gotta try this when I get back into Resolve. For convenience 90% of what I do is Lumetri with a lut loaded. Curves are ok before the lut for exposure adjustments, although not very accurate. But its WB controls are hopeless for correcting log footage equally across the range from light to dark.

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It's funny that when I see these video side-by-sides, I can always immediate pick up which one is the BM just based on the highlight rolloff, DR and colors.  You can do the same even against the S1H.

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1 hour ago, eleison said:

After all, just look at the gh5s and the pocket 4k.  The market has spoken.  The market as a whole would rather buy the pocket 4k even with it's "flaws" vs the more expensive gh5s which has the better build, etc.

Would they though if the GH5S offered internal ProRes and a CFExpress card from the outset? I would have definitely (still) bought GH5S if it had that. I think that is where they messed up. People are willing to pay extra for it. They aren’t willing to pay extra for less, unless something is really important to them. They should have added things like false colors and a better vector scope. Punch in while recording...but they couldn’t because they were limited with the GH5 processing engine. Why didn’t they include 4K60p 10-bit?

GH5S was a death by a thousand cuts. Market wise. It’s a great camera at its current price.

Hopefully they fix these problems in the GH6.

Andrew is right. They should just pay the license fee and offer the internal ProRes or some compressed RAW. It’s time. Does ProRes HQ offer superior quality over Panasonic’s 400Mbit ALL-I? Probably not much. Definitely not for the storage increase, but it sure does speed up workflow, which is the most cost effective thing you can improve. That extra $250 license fee Panasonic made you pay will be paid off real quick.

1 hour ago, Super8 said:

Should we expect the GH6 in 2020?

I speculate definitely an announcement in 2020 and release early 2021.

We still have industry shows coming up soon. Panasonic should be in forums like these to figure out what they should put in the GH6. 

8 minutes ago, MeanRevert said:

It's funny that when I see these video side-by-sides, I can always immediate pick up which one is the BM just based on the highlight rolloff, DR and colors.  You can do the same even against the S1H.

Yes, BM has an advantage. Mostly due to color science and how they process the image compared to the S. The GH5S still leans too much into consumer camera. 

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