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currensheldon

Where Is The MFT Cinema Camera? (Or Fuji X)

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5 hours ago, Thpriest said:

GH5s in a C100/XC10 form (or even Sony VG30 form) would be great. A real lightweight all rounder.

Yea exactly. Seems so simple. 

I don't think this would cut into their EVA-1 sales because people who are buying that camera want super35mm, 5.7k raw, etc. But a 10-bit 422 GH5s-sensor with full V-Log in a XC-15 or C100/FS5 style would be amazing. Throw a speedbooster on there and you've got a wider FOV than super35mm or stick with MFT and use lightweight lenses. $4-5k. 

It also is weird that nobody is making MFT or APS-C video cameras in the style of the Sony NEX-VG30 or Sony NEX-VG900 - everything under $5k is fixed lens camcorders. I guess if you made a video camera for $3-5k, they'd lost A7s and GH5 sales? If there was an MFT video camera, I'd much more likely hang on to my GH5 and also buy the GH6 as a b-cam, especially with that 10-25mm f1.7 coming out.

But I'm getting tired of having different lenses and lens mount for my A-Cam (EVA-1, EF Mount) and my other smaller b-cams and photography cams (GH5, S1) - so something has got to give soon... 

 

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I am in agreement in that cinema camera means different things for everyone. I do though think there's generally an understanding as to what a cinema camera is, and what makes a camera a "cinema camera." 

I also though think that almost any camera can be turned into a cinema camera. Rig up a GH5 or GH5s with everything you need and it's a more than capable "cinema camera." Even a hacked EOS M can be made into a cinema camera. 

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1 hour ago, currensheldon said:

It also is weird that nobody is making MFT or APS-C video cameras in the style of the Sony NEX-VG30 or Sony NEX-VG900 - everything under $5k is fixed lens camcorders. I guess if you made a video camera for $3-5k, they'd lost A7s and GH5 sales? If there was an MFT video camera, I'd much more likely hang on to my GH5 and also buy the GH6 as a b-cam, especially with that 10-25mm f1.7 coming out.

 

 

Yeah I loved the NEX-VG10, 20, and 30, had all of them. Even the special zoom lenses for them. Never had the Sony NEX-VG900, I got burned out with them by the time it came out. The Z Cam E2 is getting pretty close to a GH5s in a Cine form right now. And for less money! It is damn tempting. If you aren't into Anamorphic, it might be a great alternative.

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Seems like anything with a sensor smaller than full frame is fighting an up hill battle in the industry. It’s full frame hysteria going on right now in the industry. And everybody will migrate to full frame with big cameras with IBIS and monster telephoto lenses. Then software will catch up and make DOF an afterthought. A post processing, creative option with a checkbox and a slider.

I really like the trade off MFT makes with regards to size and image quality, if you consider DOF as image quality and not a creative choice. I think shallow DOF is almost a fad now. Like you can’t have cinematic footage that doesn’t have it. Which is totally rubbish. Framing and composition is where it’s at. Shallow depth of field on every shot to make it feel “cinematic” has is a YouTube fad and just a type of laziness.

I am afraid resources will be taken away from developing new and improved MFT sensors that offer improved dynamic range and color rendition. MFT gets shat on all the time now. Except it pioneered the mirrorless revolution we are seeing today. Everybody wants to be smaller and faster with amazing digital EVFs.

But I’m just one of those illogical MFT shooters. So take with a grain of salt.

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Yeah when you start buying new Native FF lenses you wish you Had stayed with m4/3. Only advantage is there are a ton of old FF lenses around, especially MF ones. I kind of agree with you. I think FF is more of a fad now that is not going to hold up down the road. One thing is the field is too crowded to have all of them make it.

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8 hours ago, currensheldon said:

It also is weird that nobody is making MFT or APS-C video cameras in the style of the Sony NEX-VG30 or Sony NEX-VG900 - everything under $5k is fixed lens camcorders. I guess if you made a video camera for $3-5k, they'd lost A7s and GH5 sales? If there was an MFT video camera, I'd much more likely hang on to my GH5 and also buy the GH6 as a b-cam, especially with that 10-25mm f1.7 coming out.

Obviously not an ILC but the AG-DVX200 has a four thirds sensor. It's pretty popular as an ENG camera. Two of the local network affiliates use them. 

Like you though I'm surprised more video cameras haven't been released with those large sensors, both ILC and fixed lens options. Guessing people have decided the market for these aren't interested / don't care? 

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On 4/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Ok, I should clarify, I was taking past tense as my comment would suggest. Yes, while the cinema cameras (not all the cameras you mention would be classed as 'Cinema Cameras'  but anyway.....) you mention do have internal ND's or the option to add single ND filters behind the lens, this is only starting to happen now so not sure you can expect all new cameras at the price points we are discussing here to have the same tech.


Huh? Which ones of those wouldn't you call "cinema" cameras!

And some of those cameras have been out for years and years now. 

On 4/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Alexa Mini, OK has internal Nd's but do you think the OP want's to use a 5 pin lemo breakout  cable for audio. Sure buy a Wooden camera XLR module but the Alexa doesn't come with good audio in mind out of the box to suit the self shooter. Even with the Wooden Camera XLR module, I wouldn't want to be a solo shooter using an Alexa Mini and expecting to plug mic's straight into the camera and get great, usable audio other than for a scratch track.


Yes, ARRI dropped the ball with audio with the Mini. Because they were not expecting it to be such a popular A Cam. 
However not such a big deal in a cinema camera, I do lots of shoots with an Arri Mini which don't even have audio in it. 

 

On 4/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Alexa LF: You can place a single ND filter behind the lens but it is not as quick and easy to change like the filter wheel on a more broadcast oriented camera.   

 


Thought we're discussing "cinema cameras" here not "broadcast cameras"? 😉 😛
 

On 4/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Arri Amira: Arri designed this for a single operator. Not sure Arri market it as a Cinema camera but....


It is better to operate the AMIRA with an assistant. And it has the same sensor in it as all the others, definitely gets used in "cinematic shoots". 

For instance I did a feature film which was shot entirely on the AMIRA last year which is now in the theatres next month. 

On 4/26/2019 at 3:09 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Sony F5, more aimed at the Broadcast market. It's a broadcast workhorse. 

 


Yes, it has found more success elsewhere. But tv shows like "The Crown" and lots of Netflix shows (which want 4K) have been shot on the Sony F5/F55

I'd still rate the F5/F55 as excellent "cinema cameras" (the hint is in their name from Sony: CineAlta)

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7 hours ago, Mako Sports said:

Yeah as a Sony shooter I wish there was a VG40 or VG900 successor (FS3) Handy cam form factor with built in NDs + XAVC L. They'd probably omit SDI and xlrs to seperate it from the higher End XDCAM bodies. 


Is kinda strange they also didn't upgrade the Sony FS100 with a "Sony FS1".  Something even more low budget than the FS5

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Maybe look at the Z-Cam E2-S6. It's a 6K cinema camera with a Super35 sensor and a MFT/EF/or PL mount for $4,000. These follow the "sensor in a box" definition of a cinema camera. It's like the next evolution of the Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera. Due this October along with an F6 (Full Frame 6K) and F8 (Full Frame 8K), but those will be EF and PL only. I've got my eye on the F6. Sample clips look promising.

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20 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'd still rate the F5/F55 as excellent "cinema cameras" (the hint is in their name from Sony: CineAlta)

The EX3 also says 'CineAlta' on it but it definitely wasn't designed as a Cinema Camera. The Sony PDW-F1600 XDCAM deck also says 'CineAlta' in it but would anyone really use it for Cinema Use?

20 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Yes, ARRI dropped the ball with audio with the Mini. Because they were not expecting it to be such a popular A Cam. 
However not such a big deal in a cinema camera, I do lots of shoots with an Arri Mini which don't even have audio in it. 

Exactly my point, the OP was wanting one camera with ALL the features mentioned in a 'Cinema Camera'. I was merely pointing out that packing all those features in, is not the highest of priority when a company is designing an affordable 'Cinema Camera'

Yep, some high end Cinema Cameras are now coming close to providing it all, but then not in an affordable/ small package that most people here want.

The Alexa Mini was designed primarily to fly on drones, Russian Arms etc. Remote control, motorised ND's come in very handy for those shoots! 

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18 hours ago, Zak Forsman said:

Maybe look at the Z-Cam E2-S6. It's a 6K cinema camera with a Super35 sensor and a MFT/EF/or PL mount for $4,000. These follow the "sensor in a box" definition of a cinema camera. It's like the next evolution of the Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera. Due this October along with an F6 (Full Frame 6K) and F8 (Full Frame 8K), but those will be EF and PL only. I've got my eye on the F6. Sample clips look promising.

Definitely interested in seeing what these can do, but the problem (for me) with the Z-Cam and Pocket 4K is that still lack the main things I'm looking for in a video/cinema camera, namely internal NDs, great audio, and sensible ergonomics (buttons!). Not a fan of the box with a sensor in it system either, really. 

But I love that Z-Cam is doing the Super35mm sensor with an MFT mount - Can use MFT lenses (and crop in a bit on the sensor) for a truly lightweight rig or get the 0.64x speedbooster and have a wider FOV and a bit more light gathering ability than full-frame! So cool. Just hoping it could come from Panasonic. 

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6 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

Definitely interested in seeing what these can do, but the problem (for me) with the Z-Cam and Pocket 4K is that still lack the main things I'm looking for in a video/cinema camera, namely internal NDs, great audio, and sensible ergonomics (buttons!). Not a fan of the box with a sensor in it system either, really. 

But I love that Z-Cam is doing the Super35mm sensor with an MFT mount - Can use MFT lenses (and crop in a bit on the sensor) for a truly lightweight rig or get the 0.64x speedbooster and have a wider FOV and a bit more light gathering ability than full-frame! So cool. Just hoping it could come from Panasonic. 

They confirmed they are working on ND's but not for the Z cam E2

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4 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

The EX3 also says 'CineAlta' on it but it definitely wasn't designed as a Cinema Camera.

Did it, I don't recall it saying "CineAlta" anywhere on the camera body itself? Maybe it got mentioned a little bit in the marketing for having 24p

And for sure, for its time the Sony EX3 was very capable of and used a lot for low budget cinema shoots. 

It is easy though to dismiss it from a 2019 perspective, and forget the context of the time. 

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47 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Did it, I don't recall it saying "CineAlta" anywhere on the camera body itself? Maybe it got mentioned a little bit in the marketing for having 24p

And for sure, for its time the Sony EX3 was very capable of and used a lot for low budget cinema shoots. 

It is easy though to dismiss it from a 2019 perspective, and forget the context of the time. 

They Still bring as much or more money than a Sony PMW F3 at times. There was, and still a ton of people that use or used them. Never had one, but wished I had. A workhorse.

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15 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

They Still bring as much or more money than a Sony PMW F3 at times. There was, and still a ton of people that use or used them. Never had one, but wished I had. A workhorse.

Yeah I worked with an EX1 a lot ages ago, and a little with an EX3. 

Now and then I do check out the prices of an EX3 on eBay, and kinda to my surprise they're still fetching a half decent ish price (waaaaay less than new though!). Certainly nowhere near close enough to a "what the hell, spure of the moment indulgence" purchase. 

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Yeah they are getting pretty long in the tooth now, but you can't argue about the form factor if you need that it for that kind of shooting it is great at..

Interesting one here using a Canon B4 lens and an Anton Bauer Battery. The standard Fujinon lens is pretty hard to beat. Great ENG, Run n Gun, Doc camera.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-PMW-EX3-16-GB-High-Definition-Camcorder/254211280554?epid=100005313&hash=item3b302c4eaa:g:7l8AAOSwRaFcn-MO&frcectupt=true

Sony went their own way with them on CS, I prefer the C100 probably better, but a heck of a lot of people bought a EX3 over them. I think the Fuji Lens and the allure of 3 CCDs helped the Sony. It was more of a pick it up and go package. Sort of like the original Canon XL1, XL2. Those were the cats ass back in the day.

 

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