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Andrew Reid

Sony A7R IV / A7S III / A9 II to feature 8K video, as new 60MP and 36MP full frame sensor specs leak

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5 minutes ago, currensheldon said:

Nope - I meant the S1 is vastly superior compared to the other cameras it goes up against. Granted, it’s a bit more expensive so maybe it really is in a field by itself. 

Ok. I like the S1 for what it offers. It's bit more then the Z6 but I'm watching it to see how the S1's video is compared to the Z6 RAW.

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38 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Nice trolling on your part. 

You don't know the price of the S1H right now. The Z7 was never built as a cine level camera. 

The S1H is roughly $4,000 and could be higher. The S1R is $3,700 so do the math.

The full frame readout Z6 with 12 bit RAW video at $1,700 or the S1H at $4,000. Again do the math and compare the two in cine money.  

I'm not building my camera rig based on the S1H and 4K 60fps ( most likely having a crop).

 

What trolling? There's ZERO of that there.

Z6 has no comparison with S1H to begin with. Not even the Z7. Where's the 4K 60p 8-bit? Let alone 10-bit... ; ) 6K 24p... LOL

I get the S1R for $3500 (without taxes) in Europe BTW. The S1H price is the target announced. I doubt it will be higher, lower for sure in the ratio MSRP vs street price as happens since there are cameras for sale : D

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2 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

What trolling? There's ZERO of that there.

Z6 has no comparison with S1H to begin with. Not even the Z7. Where's the 4K 60p 8-bit? Let alone 10-bit... ; ) 6K 24p... LOL

I get the S1R for $3500 (without taxes) in Europe BTW. The price is the target announced. I doubt it will be higher, lower for sure in the ratio MSRP vs street price as happens since there are cameras for sale : D

No if they are saying $4,000 for the S1H that's the price they are trying to hit but if they don't hit that price it's not coming down in price. 

The Z6 does compare to the S1 in every way. If I'm wrong then show how it doesn't.

- Z6 has 10 bit 4:22 external, most pros have an external monitor

- The Z6 will have 12 bit RAW Pro Res, so it get's even better

- The Z6 has EYE AF and video AF tracking that works and doesn't pulse 

I don't care about 4K 60p for the Z6 right now so why do you keep bringing that up? You have many more things about a camera that need to be right before you jump on the 4k 60p train. Give me great color and image quality for my video any day of the week over 4K 60p.

 

 

 

 

 

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Sure not, S1 is better featured ; )

And where S1's CS owes anything to Nikons?!

AF is the only disadvantage I see but following your perspective, if "most pros have an external monitor" as you write, go figure if they will invariably need any AF going along such setup... LOL : ) Without mention, worse AF doesn't mean unusable AF either : P

You say S1H street price won't be lower, let's wait and see ; -)

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32 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Sure not, S1 is better featured ; )

And where S1 CS owes anything to Nikons?!

AF is the only disadvantage I see but following your perspective, if "most pros have an external monitor" as you write, go figure if they will invariably need any AF going along such setup... LOL : )

You say S1H street price won't be lower, let's wait and see ; -)

I've never said anything but good things about the S's color science. 

Panasonic chases the $$ like they did with the GH5s so the S1H will not be lower then $4,000.  How is this even your argument ? Is this all you have that in your mind you can tell other that price isn't an issues because the S1H will be lower then the announced price? 

AF tracking is useful and I used it today on a shoot with the Z6. These are small cameras and not built from the cine world so AF tracking is a real feature that people use. The whole purpose of the smaller cameras with AF is to put some of the work on the camera and get the shots you need. So you're going to hire someone to pull focus on the S1H ALL BECAUSE PANASONIC CAN"T GET AF RIGHT? This is the same as Sony not getting color science right. Why even have AF if you can't rely on it.

You seem bent on taking digs at the Z6 for some reason. Have you used the Z6? I didn't think so. 

I have said since day 1 that the S1 and S1H seem like great cameras and are good for the market. You can say same about the Z6. Also the features you talk about now become part of the Z6 when it's paired with the Atomos Ninja. 

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1 hour ago, currensheldon said:

Nope - I meant the S1 is vastly superior compared to the other cameras it goes up against. Granted, it’s a bit more expensive so maybe it really is in a field by itself. 

The EOS-r is the most expensive here in the UK - the S1 is £150 cheaper than the EOS-r, seems much better value to me. Z6 you can get for £720 less than the Eos-r - also great value

The S1 to me is the benchmark right now for image quality, colour, DR, IBIS, lowlight and with great 10 bit internal 

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42 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I've never said anything but good things about the S's color science. 

Panasonic chases the $$ like they did with the GH5s so the S1H will not be lower then $4,000.  How is this even your argument ? Is this all you have that in your mind you can tell other that price isn't an issues because the S1H will be lower then the announced price? 

AF tracking is useful and I used it today on a shoot with the Z6. These are small cameras and not built from the cine world so AF tracking is a real feature that people use. The whole purpose of the smaller cameras with AF is to put some of the work on the camera and get the shots you need. So you're going to hire someone to pull focus on the S1H ALL BECAUSE PANASONIC CAN"T GET AF RIGHT? This is the same as Sony not getting color science right. Why even have AF if you can't rely on it.

You seem bent on taking digs at the Z6 for some reason. Have you used the Z6? I didn't think so. 

I have said since day 1 that the S1 and S1H seem like great cameras and are good for the market. You can say same about the Z6. Also the features you talk about now become part of the Z6 when it's paired with the Atomos Ninja. 

No, I've never used the Z6, correct. Didn't feel actually any need to be sincere. Cameras don't harm anyone, so how could I have anything against this one? LOL : ) I think it might interest me to afford one unit, again, comprehending 4K 60p. I wouldn't mind to couple to a Atomos recorder if so, but you can't reach such frame rate even going that route. Street price always tends to be lower than MSRP still announced or mere target price under TBC, hence my remark : -)

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3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Hopefully it won't be another $3500 camera without even 10bit in 2019.

I dont see how Sony could make another A7S 8bit camera. Sony is pushing HLG as the future but BBC and NHK specifically call for all HLG to be 10bit in their spec. Sony is the only HLG out there still stuck in 8bit. Panny actually FORCES you to shoot HLG in 10bit.

If Sony stays stubburn on 8bit only, Panasonic will throw a company wide celebration in all Panny offices!

Sony Alpha "might" make XDCAM managers happy and only allow 10bit over HDMI and not internal. (This could also help Sony fight A7S-III heat too if they insist again on using the A7 small body design.)

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3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Hopefully it won't be another $3500 camera without even 10bit in 2019.

Sony’s market share in FF cameras is growing, until that slows what’s the incentive to push specs too far? Zero. I mean the R4 is essentially the R3 with a new sensor, better EVF and some small control refinements that allow them to milk customers for yet another grip. 

Panasonic is trying to launch a new system with AF that’s not particularly competitive compared to the market leaders - Canon and Sony. So they have to stuff the spec sheet elsewhere. I’m just not going to get psyched for S1 specs in an E-mount body. I’ll believe it when I see it.

chris

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If the A7S3 has 4K 60p and A6400 auto focus I think it will sell well. If they give it a Venice color option and do away with overheating that's even better. 

10 bit is great but I am not sure its a deal breaker for hybrids yet. It is for me but I am not everyone. 

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21 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I dont see how Sony could make another A7S 8bit camera. Sony is pushing HLG as the future but BBC and NHK specifically call for all HLG to be 10bit in their spec. Sony is the only HLG out there still stuck in 8bit. Panny actually FORCES you to shoot HLG in 10bit.

If Sony stays stubburn on 8bit only, Panasonic will throw a company wide celebration in all Panny offices!

Sony Alpha "might" make XDCAM managers happy and only allow 10bit over HDMI and not internal. (This could also help Sony fight A7S-III heat too if they insist again on using the A7 small body design.)

IMO with a “new” body on the R4, the S3 is going to get the same “update,” they aren’t going to do anything dramatically different like the S1H for a smaller volume body. Even the a9 differences were really just the top plate and hardware pieces that are interchangeable like the EVF and sensor (I know it’s a  oversimplification, but...)

 

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25 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

IMO with a “new” body on the R4, the S3 is going to get the same “update,” they aren’t going to do anything dramatically different like the S1H for a smaller volume body. Even the a9 differences were really just the top plate and hardware pieces that are interchangeable like the EVF and sensor (I know it’s a  oversimplification, but...)

 

wishful thinking:

where the A7r4 has a PC socket for flash sync, perhaps A9ii will have an ethernet port instead? while A7siii will have ______ ?

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Face it - nobody has a clue what Sony is going to do.

I dont think you get much of a clue from reading the tea leaves of the A7r4. This is a top of the line stills camera with pretty much insane specs. Video is an after thought - it hardly even makes sense shooting 4k from a 61mp sensor.

It certainly doesnt make any sense for Sony to bring out an A7s3 that doesnt shoot 10 bit. And I think we all pretty much know that for Sony to be competitive 'long term' in the video centric market it needs a bigger body to help with the heat issues. I imagine the smart business decision for Sony is to can the A7s line and leave the video side to the likes of Panasonic - it is a very small market...

But I think Sony likes its 'halo'/'vanity' projects (A9!!). So I wouldnt be at all surprised to see an 'A7s3' in a redesigned body - it makes more sense to me than trying to shoehorn a video centric camera into a 'stills' body.

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1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

Sony’s market share in FF cameras is growing, until that slows what’s the incentive to push specs too far? Zero. I mean the R4 is essentially the R3 with a new sensor, better EVF and some small control refinements that allow them to milk customers for yet another grip. 

Panasonic is trying to launch a new system with AF that’s not particularly competitive compared to the market leaders - Canon and Sony. So they have to stuff the spec sheet elsewhere. I’m just not going to get psyched for S1 specs in an E-mount body. I’ll believe it when I see it.

chris

Tony and Chelsea's latest review has a lot of issues with the A7R 4 and very minor detail gain.

No Sony's market share has not grown but lost market share because of Canon, Nikon and Panasonic. You can't have 3 major brands enter your market and not lose market share. 

I'm not sure how long you've worked for Sony but in 2019 -20 customers will not settle for out of date new cameras. 

Sony won't match the S1 for all the wrong reason but the biggest one is they don't think they have to match the S1. 

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20 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

Tony and Chelsea's latest review has a lot of issues with the A7R 4 and very minor detail gain.

No Sony's market share has not grown but lost market share because of Canon, Nikon and Panasonic. You can't have 3 major brands enter your market and not lose market share. 

I'm not sure how long you've worked for Sony but in 2019 -20 customers will not settle for out of date new cameras. 

Sony won't match the S1 for all the wrong reason but the biggest one is they don't think they have to match the S1. 

The vast majority of people I know who like high megapixel FF cameras - like them not because you can 'print big' but for the ability to 'crop'. So an apsc sized crop on the A7r4 (1.5x) gives you 26mp (as much as any existing apsc camera) and 15mp if you crop to M43 (2.0x) which is pretty good. That for instance means I can shoot my 100-400 lens at 800mm and still have 15mp.

As far as matching the S1. Panasonic has effectively been the market leader in mirrorless video specs for the past 10 years and it has seen its market share of the mirrorless market fall from well over 50% to under 10% during that period. And that is why Sony doesnt have to compete in that market.

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1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

The vast majority of people I know who like high megapixel FF cameras - like them not because you can 'print big' but for the ability to 'crop'. So an apsc sized crop on the A7r4 (1.5x) gives you 26mp (as much as any existing apsc camera) and 15mp if you crop to M43 (2.0x) which is pretty good. That for instance means I can shoot my 100-400 lens at 800mm and still have 15mp.

As far as matching the S1. Panasonic has effectively been the market leader in mirrorless video specs for the past 10 years and it has seen its market share of the mirrorless market fall from well over 50% to under 10% during that period. And that is why Sony doesnt have to compete in that market.

I don't know where you get you data from or can back it up. 

The P4K and S1 and Z6 pushed Sony to better it's A7 series video specs.  Why Nikon? Because Nikon was the first full frame 10 bit 4K mirrorless camera in the market. Sony still trails Nikon in market share for camera sales. 

Sony is playing catchup to Nikon, Canon and Panasonic and people have posted comments asking where the A7SIII is.  Yeah Sony has to compete in this market. To many options in this market for Sony not to compete.

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If Sony killed off the A7s line it would also hurt the XDCAM line and eventually the Cinealta line.  By having these segments it keeps people committed to the system. (i.e a person can take a path from an old a6000 to an a7 body, to an FS body) For me its step up to FS7 or sell all my e mount glass to get into L Mount/EVA 1.

At the moment I think Panasonic is trying to do the same thing Canon and Sony already have in place, with tiers of cameras sharing the same lens mount and similar specs. 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Skip77 said:

I don't know where you get you data from or can back it up. 

The P4K and S1 and Z6 pushed Sony to better it's A7 series video specs.  Why Nikon? Because Nikon was the first full frame 10 bit 4K mirrorless camera in the market. Sony still trails Nikon in market share for camera sales. 

Sony is playing catchup to Nikon, Canon and Panasonic and people have posted comments asking where the A7SIII is.  Yeah Sony has to compete in this market. To many options in this market for Sony not to compete.

Look first off camera specs dont have that much influence on market share. Canon has been consistently the market leader overall in ILCs for the last 20 years and their camera specs are years behind their competitors.

Sony is doing fine in FF mirrorless. Look at this data from BCN for April this year...

Japanese-full-frame-mirrorless-market-share-2.jpg.8e68f1f74b7439bbc0a8992ed260d0bd.jpg

The a73 is massively outselling say the Z6 in April this year despite being launched at least a year earlier. Sony is at 50% market share of FF mirrorless despite not introducing a new model for 18 months. I dont dispute Sony A7 series is now behind Nikon and Panasonic for 'video' (not convinced they are playing catch up to Canon) but I dont think that video specs have much influence on overall ILC sales. If they did, sure Panasonic would do better....

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4 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Look first off camera specs dont have that much influence on market share. Canon has been consistently the market leader overall in ILCs for the last 20 years and their camera specs are years behind their competitors.

Sony is doing fine in FF mirrorless. Look at this data from BCN for April this year...

Japanese-full-frame-mirrorless-market-share-2.jpg.8e68f1f74b7439bbc0a8992ed260d0bd.jpg

The a73 is massively outselling say the Z6 in April this year despite being launched at least a year earlier. Sony is at 50% market share of FF mirrorless despite not introducing a new model for 18 months. I dont dispute Sony A7 series is now behind Nikon and Panasonic for 'video' (not convinced they are playing catch up to Canon) but I dont think that video specs have much influence on overall ILC sales. If they did, sure Panasonic would do better....

Didn't Sony have 100% of full frame mirrorless market before July 2018?

 

8 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Look first off camera specs dont have that much influence on market share. Canon has been consistently the market leader overall in ILCs for the last 20 years and their camera specs are years behind their competitors.

Sony is doing fine in FF mirrorless. Look at this data from BCN for April this year...

Japanese-full-frame-mirrorless-market-share-2.jpg.8e68f1f74b7439bbc0a8992ed260d0bd.jpg

The a73 is massively outselling say the Z6 in April this year despite being launched at least a year earlier. Sony is at 50% market share of FF mirrorless despite not introducing a new model for 18 months. I dont dispute Sony A7 series is now behind Nikon and Panasonic for 'video' (not convinced they are playing catch up to Canon) but I dont think that video specs have much influence on overall ILC sales. If they did, sure Panasonic would do better....

That chart shows the Z6 outselling the A7RIII and A9.

I think Sony's mistake was not developing the A9 series to be it's base model to build off of. The A9 is awesome and for the price you have room to expand features and spec quality. 

Camera market price don't change much from the last 10-15 years once a price is set. Look at the JVC cine camcorder from 2004 and it was $8K for 720p to tape and the deck to play it back on was $5k.  

Sony will now always have a $1K, $2k, $3.5K and $4k comer model on the market. The A9SII could have been the answer to the S1H but Sony has missed that marketing / model chance.

Think about it: Does Sony release the A7SIII or the A7S IV ?  I would have developed the A8S or A9S model and crushed every other brand. 

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