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wolf33d

Canon FF mirrorless is coming

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16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

I saw this at B&Hphoto today and it pretty much sums up why Canon will dominate in mirrorless....

I think people have a very skewed idea of what 'dominating' means. 

16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Never mind that the 28-75 2.8 is supposed to be plasticky, the 50 1.8 is supposed to be horrible and the 85 1.8 isnt supposed to have great bokeh.

28-75mm is amazing (but imperfect). It is light and not intended to be 'rugged', but is built to a very good standard. 50mm f/1.8 is way better than the Canon 50mm STM and somewhat better than the Nikon 50mm AF-S. 85mm f/1.8 is the best of it's ilk by anyone as far as I can tell. I'm not sure how the bokeh really plays into your argument. 

16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

At the end of the day consumers 'buy value/cheap'. The same applies to APSC where Fuji offers the 'quality/expensive product' but where its market share is so low nobody actually knows what it is. While Canon with minimal efforts is making great inroads. Fuji is releasing an 'amazing' US$6,000 200mm F2' while Canon doesnt sell an EOS-M lens over US$500. Look there is always a market for high end, ground breaking, mtf chart lenses which are inevitably very expensive - but it just isnt a very big one.

Canon don't make lenses in that range because by the time you are bolting on a massive 200mm f/2 IS lens, you might as well use the one they already make, with adapter. This is something Canon actively promote as a benefit of the EF-M system. So in effect they are already making those lenses (and many more expensive ones too). 

16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

All the mirrorless manufacturers are going relentlessly upmarket leaving a large gaping hole for Canon to walk through.

That's because that is where the money is. Nobody but fanboys cares one iota about volume when there is no profit in it. Lower tiers are being relentlessly dumped because those markets are moving to smartphones. Canon also had a bewildering array of Powershots when that market was disappearing. Doesn't mean they are doing well out of it. 

16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

You see the great achievement of Nikon and Sony in FF mirrorless is to create fabulous high tech FF mirrorless at 'relatively affordable' price of under US$2,000. But it is a complete waste of time if even the most basic of your lenses are over US$500 a pop.

Incorrect. People who are buying these cameras are much more likely to buy lenses and yes at those prices and (much) higher. This is called attachment rate and this is what manufacturers are aiming for. People who buy a base model DSLR and kit lens don't ever buy lenses. When they buy a new one, they buy again with kit lens (so could buy any brand). High end mirrorless is where all the attachment rate happens. Nobody is (completely) ignoring the lower end (except Nikon), Sony release new RX100's every year (really popular with the DSLR + kit lens crowd) and they have plenty of APS-C models to choose from and the kinds of lenses entry level users buy (if any). They don't need to release a new camera every week to have something comparable in this segment. Heck the A6000 is still getting compared to the M50. What Sony don't bother with is an array of expensive APS-C specific lenses, but for entry level there are plentiful options. 

Fujifilm are the same. So are Panasonic. So are Olympus. 

Canon have only played in that area to date, because yes there is volume and because they weren't wanting to cannibalise sales of 6Ds and 5Ds etc. 

16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Sure Sony has now 'eventually' got a few affordable lenses but there simply arent many (especially compared to Canon and Nikon DSLRs.) Both Sony and Nikon are absorbed with huge amounts of hubris - Nikon bringing out a US$6,000 58 0.95 with manual focus  (before a basic long zoom) and Sony is promoting its lightweight, 3kg, US$12,000 400 2.8.....

Sony had 'affordable' lenses from day dot for the market they were aiming. 

Those lenses might be getting headlines, because they are new. They won't be volume movers, but are halo products that help move lower tier products, including the ones you think make up the majority of the market. People buy Canons because the person they know who is a 'camera person' said they can't go wrong with one. Or the spotty store clerk sold them one because that's the one they heard of. But in the top end of town things are very different. Thus Sony selling more FF cameras than anyone in the 1st 6 months this year. Canon are selling lots of 1500Ds (in volume), but in the markets we are interested in thats not the case. 

16 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

So in all likelihood Canon will enter the FF mirrorless market with a totally underwhelming camera, with lenses that are uninspiring (but you wont have to have to make the excuse they look good value against Leica.) And much to everyone's irritation but no surprise they will walk away with the market

Considering they have these uninspiring models in the FF sector at the moment (one of which I own over the 'inspiring' models) and can't beat Sony in FF sales, what makes you think they are suddenly going to with a FF mirrorless? They haven't been able to do that with mirrorless APS-C and I don't see that changing if they keep being 'uninspiring'. 

5 hours ago, wolf33d said:

BS. Nothing to do with Canon dominating mirrorless. They will probably have a new mount like Nikon and start from 0. Sony lenses are great. Canon dominates DSLR world because of the EF lineup and because of their name. Japanese people like the name. They are far behind Sony in the US for mirrorless. 

And now FF. Canon ran away from the US mirrorless market with their tails between their legs with the joke that was the EOS M1 (I owned like 6 over the years). People overestimate Canon's abilities and market power by a factor of about 10 I reckon. 

5 hours ago, wolf33d said:

Amazing sharpness and a 28-75 range with 2.8 for this weight at this price is unheard of in the photo world. It's absolutely amazing to have a standard zoom this light yet with amazing corner to corner sharpness.

Yep. That lens is phenomenal! Too bad it isn't coming to the Nikon Z any time soon, that lens alone would sell me on a Z6. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs
4 hours ago, buggz said:

Yawn...  wake me when all of this has been hashed out...

Too much to keep up with.

BMPC4K, Nikon FFmirrorless, Canon FF mirorrless, I guess Olympus is next, then Panny, Fuji...

I feel the same way.  I'm in the market for a new camera, but only plan to buy around xmas or afterwards.

I'll be waiting until we have comparison videos based on real footage and full reviews and then we'll know what hidden warts each of them have and who each is really aimed at.

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15 minutes ago, MdB said:

I think people have a very skewed idea of what 'dominating' means. 

28-75mm is amazing (but imperfect). It is light and not intended to be 'rugged', but is built to a very good standard. 50mm f/1.8 is way better than the Canon 50mm STM and somewhat better than the Nikon 50mm AF-S. 85mm f/1.8 is the best of it's ilk by anyone as far as I can tell. I'm not sure how the bokeh really plays into your argument. 

Canon don't make lenses in that range because by the time you are bolting on a massive 200mm f/2 IS lens, you might as well use the one they already make, with adapter. This is something Canon actively promote as a benefit of the EF-M system. So in effect they are already making those lenses (and many more expensive ones too). 

That's because that is where the money is. Nobody but fanboys cares one iota about volume when there is no profit in it. Lower tiers are being relentlessly dumped because those markets are moving to smartphones. Canon also had a bewildering array of Powershots when that market was disappearing. Doesn't mean they are doing well out of it. 

Incorrect. People who are buying these cameras are much more likely to buy lenses and yes at those prices and (much) higher. This is called attachment rate and this is what manufacturers are aiming for. People who buy a base model DSLR and kit lens don't ever buy lenses. When they buy a new one, they buy again with kit lens (so could buy any brand). High end mirrorless is where all the attachment rate happens. Nobody is (completely) ignoring the lower end (except Nikon), Sony release new RX100's every year (really popular with the DSLR + kit lens crowd) and they have plenty of APS-C models to choose from and the kinds of lenses entry level users buy (if any). They don't need to release a new camera every week to have something comparable in this segment. Heck the A6000 is still getting compared to the M50. What Sony don't bother with is an array of expensive APS-C specific lenses, but for entry level there are plentiful options. 

Fujifilm are the same. So are Panasonic. So are Olympus. 

Canon have only played in that area to date, because yes there is volume and because they weren't wanting to cannibalise sales of 6Ds and 5Ds etc. 

Sony had 'affordable' lenses from day dot for the market they were aiming. 

Those lenses might be getting headlines, because they are new. They won't be volume movers, but are halo products that help move lower tier products, including the ones you think make up the majority of the market. People buy Canons because the person they know who is a 'camera person' said they can't go wrong with one. Or the spotty store clerk sold them one because that's the one they heard of. But in the top end of town things are very different. Thus Sony selling more FF cameras than anyone in the 1st 6 months this year. Canon are selling lots of 1500Ds (in volume), but in the markets we are interested in thats not the case. 

Considering they have these uninspiring models in the FF sector at the moment (one of which I own over the 'inspiring' models) and can't beat Sony in FF sales, what makes you think they are suddenly going to with a FF mirrorless? They haven't been able to do that with mirrorless APS-C and I don't see that changing if they keep being 'uninspiring'. 

And now FF. Canon ran away from the US mirrorless market with their tails between their legs with the joke that was the EOS M1 (I owned like 6 over the years). People overestimate Canon's abilities and market power by a factor of about 10 I reckon. 

Yep. That lens is phenomenal! Too bad it isn't coming to the Nikon Z any time soon, that lens alone would sell me on a Z6. 

I dont disagree with the notion that the 'big margins' are in the 'high end' products. I just fundamentally disagree with you about how the camera market actually works.

You see you (and another poster) have expressed a view that people are inherently drawn to buy into a brand by their 'halo' products. I just dont think that is the case. I think the camera market a bif like 'drugs'. They buy into the the market through 'gateway drugs' - drugs that are sold at little or no profit but get you 'addicted' to the drug dealer/brand. So most people buy into cameras at the lower end/ lower margin point - say a Nikon D3500, a couple of zooms and a 50 1.8 prime (the D3000 series accounts for 50% of Nikon's sales.) The reason they buy in at the lower end is that they dont really know how seriously they are going to take it - indeed many/most buyers dont take it much further.

But a proportion through a combination of encouragement and enthusiasm gradually move up the company's value chain. The 50 1.4 replaces the 50 1.8, the D7500 replaces the D3500 etc.. So the point of the gateway drug approach is that it gets you addicted to the brand and the brand can then take you up the value chain. So you need to capture the bottom end of the market in order to sell at the high end (unless you are Leica).

Olympus is proof of this. They have moved relentlessly upmarket and all they have achieved is less and less ILC sales and mounting losses with a US$58m loss forecast this year. Canon on the other hand with its gateway drug approach makes more money than everyone else put together. They may not make much money out of their entrance products but it is those purchases that get in the customers to sell them the high end/high margin products.

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5 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

But a proportion through a combination of encouragement and enthusiasm gradually move up the company's value chain. The 50 1.4 replaces the 50 1.8, the D7500 replaces the D3500 etc.. So the point of the gateway drug approach is that it gets you addicted to the brand and the brand can then take you up the value chain. So you need to capture the bottom end of the market in order to sell at the high end (unless you are Leica).

Olympus is proof of this. They have moved relentlessly upmarket and all they have achieved is less and less ILC sales and mounting losses with a US$58m loss forecast this year. Canon on the other hand with its gateway drug approach makes more money than everyone else put together. They may not make much money out of their entrance products but it is those purchases that get in the customers to sell them the high end/high margin products.

Agreed 110%

Where is the cheap Olympus MFT camera to get newbies to fall in love with Olympus? 

I really do hope we don't see Panasonic committing the same folly, as we're seeing early signs they might be. 

 

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10 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

You see you (and another poster) have expressed a view that people are inherently drawn to buy into a brand by their 'halo' products. I just dont think that is the case. I think the camera market a bif like 'drugs'. They buy into the the market through 'gateway drugs'

Well actually it's both. Punters need the 'gateway' models to get started and the 'halo' products are what get those people advising the punters all hot under the collar. Average Joe buying their first ILC likely has no idea what a Noct lens is. That isn't the point. BUT 'we' don't spend hours discussing 1500Ds either. 

10 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

say a Nikon D3500, a couple of zooms and a 50 1.8 prime (the D3000 series accounts for 50% of Nikon's sales.) The reason they buy in at the lower end is that they dont really know how seriously they are going to take it - indeed many/most buyers dont take it much further.

So which is it, are Nikon only going upmarket or are these models attractive to newcomers? You seem to be a bit all over the shop in your references.

10 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Olympus is proof of this. They have moved relentlessly upmarket and all they have achieved is less and less ILC sales and mounting losses with a US$58m loss forecast this year.

That's not even remotely true. I feel you are switching between what's really out there and what you perceive. Olympus didn't stop making budget friendly products. They have released some more high end products but that doesn't delete the myriad of affordable ones from their product line. The most recent camera releases have been E-M10 III and E-PL9, both part of their budget friendly line. They still also sell the previous models for less for those who don't need 4K video. 

As for making losses, well that isn't new. From what I last read their strategy has been mostly working for them in that they are haemorrhaging less, because they are going upmarket. Plus they are doing less fire sales on outgoing low tier models (which doesn't make them any money nor give them a loyal installed base). The E-M10 series seems to compete quite well with the M5 and M50, while the E-PL series with the M6 and M100. 

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Agreed 110%

Where is the cheap Olympus MFT camera to get newbies to fall in love with Olympus? 

Seriously? 

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I really do hope we don't see Panasonic committing the same folly, as we're seeing early signs they might be. 

Panasonic product strategy is all over the shop, that does not bode well for loyal customer base. They keep making the same mistakes by 'reinventing' popular lines. The GF1 got butchered into the GF series *sigh* and the GX series from GX1 to GX7, then the GX8 and down to the GX9. It's an absolute mess. GM1 and GM5 and then the shape was borrowed for more cheapo, awful GF series. Now they are supposedly dumping the G series... 

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They can't. Sony is taking more and more of the new photographer/videographer market, and once those people are invested in the Sony ecosystem, most will be there for life. Canon sitting back and doing nothing has the effect of permanently ceding market to Sony (for the most part, but also some of the others).

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9 hours ago, MdB said:

Panasonic product strategy is all over the shop, that does not bode well for loyal customer base. They keep making the same mistakes by 'reinventing' popular lines. The GF1 got butchered into the GF series *sigh* and the GX series from GX1 to GX7, then the GX8 and down to the GX9. It's an absolute mess. GM1 and GM5 and then the shape was borrowed for more cheapo, awful GF series. Now they are supposedly dumping the G series... 

Don't forget the G7 to G9, which are two products with totally different markets. 

 

Wish Panasonic had stayed more consistent in what their lines represented. 

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45 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Don't forget the G7 to G9, which are two products with totally different markets. 

Yep! I mean it sort of makes sense, somewhat, at the time. But then their range is all over the place. The G85 takes over the G7, G9 above as a higher end in that series... ugh. 

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So, if the rumors are true, it looks like Canon followed in Nikon’s footsteps and are introducing a new mount called RF for their rumored upcoming FF mirrorless. The rumor states the camera will called the EOS-R. 

Hopefully, the rumor is only partially true and they have instead figured out how to go FF mirrorless and maintain the EF mount. Otherwise this would make 3 different lens mounts for Canon cameras... EF, M and RF.

Perhaps Canon has figured out a way to mount both EF lenses and these new RF lenses onto a single mount. I do remember reading something a few months back where a Canon executive said they have created a very creative solution for lens mounts... perhaps this is it...

Maybe they can make the M mount work as well and the RF mount will be Canon’s Swiss Army mount... somehow I doubt it.

The good news is that if this rumor is true, there is another rumor that states, they will also be releasing a 24-70mm f/2 RF lens. Now that would be great news, if they can keep the kit at $3000 or less.

Secretly, I’m hoping the R stands for Raw and they are going to employ RawLite video into their new mirrorless line... haha... a reluctant Canon fanboy can dream can’t he...

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FF mirrorless with an EF mount is somewhat interesting. But then they could just make a pop-up EVF like the X-Pro2 and call it a day.

Besides an EVF the only reason to have a mirrorless imo is smaller lenses (if slower, with equal lenses there is no real size advantage to mirrorless).

In other words, ad a hybrid viewfinder and mirrorless is kinda obsolete.

Provocative thought, I know. But its not far fetched any more. Instant focus in live view, ibis, peaking, all of it is available in similar sized DSLRs already. Only thing missing is the EVF.

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18 minutes ago, mercer said:

Perhaps Canon has figured out a way to mount both EF lenses and these new RF lenses onto a single mount. I do remember reading something a few months back where a Canon executive said they have created a very creative solution for lens mounts... perhaps this is it...

Maybe they can make the M mount work as well and the RF mount will be Canon’s Swiss Army mount... somehow I doubt it.

They have a patent for a mount that takes both EF and M mount lenses.

Whether this is it remains to be seen as they and others obviously have tons of patents that don't end up in actual products such as Sigma's patent for foveon video and my slightly less far fetched one for an autopilot system for unicorns.

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10 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

FF mirrorless with an EF mount is somewhat interesting. But then they could just make a pop-up EVF like the X-Pro2 and call it a day.

Besides an EVF the only reason to have a mirrorless imo is smaller lenses (if slower, with equal lenses there is no real size advantage to mirrorless).

In other words, ad a hybrid viewfinder and mirrorless is kinda obsolete.

Provocative thought, I know. But its not far fetched any more. Instant focus in live view, ibis, peaking, all of it is available in similar sized DSLRs already. Only thing missing is the EVF.

Good point, although I think it will be an unpopular thought around here.

I just don’t like using adapters anymore... especially on mirrorless. So, for me, a new mount would basically make my EF lenses obsolete on the RF... so not really a selling point. At that point I may as well go Nikon or Sony because there’s nothing keeping me faithful to Canon. But a 24-70mm f/2 lens with IBIS could do it if they include cLog. I’ll even happily take mjpeg, that’s how easy I am to stay with Canon.

11 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

They have a patent for a mount that takes both EF and M mount lenses.

Whether this is it remains to be seen as they and others obviously have tons of patents that don't end up in actual products such as Sigma's patent for foveon video and my slightly less far fetched one for an autopilot system for unicorns.

Well that must be what I remember and that does sound pretty interesting... at that point I suppose RF stands for RetroFit... hell that may as well make FD lenses fit too... now that would be something... lol. 

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

Good point, although I think it will be an unpopular thought around here.

I just don’t like using adapters anymore... especially on mirrorless. So, for me, a new mount would basically make my EF lenses obsolete on the RF... so not really a selling point. At that point I may as well go Nikon or Sony because there’s nothing keeping me faithful to Canon. But a 24-70mm f/2 lens with IBIS could do it if they include cLog. I’ll even happily take mjpeg, that’s how easy I am to stay with Canon.

Im with you. It will be unpopular, adapters are annoying and c-log is boss.

I imported some old xc10 footage into final cut yesterday, just to see how it is since it got supported. Ten minutes later I was browsing 5Dmkiv adds :)

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2 hours ago, mercer said:

So, if the rumors are true, it looks like Canon followed in Nikon’s footsteps and are introducing a new mount called RF for their rumored upcoming FF mirrorless. The rumor states the camera will called the EOS-R. 

Hopefully, the rumor is only partially true and they have instead figured out how to go FF mirrorless and maintain the EF mount. Otherwise this would make 3 different lens mounts for Canon cameras... EF, M and RF.

 

 

 

Can already have three points EF, EF-S & M

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Nokoshita leaks lens lineups:

EOS R body
EOS R 24105 kit
RF 35 mm F 1.8 M IS
RF 50 mm F 1.2 L USM
RF 28 – 70 mm F 2 L USM
RF 24 – 105 mm F4 L USM
M adapter R

 

wow

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On 8/28/2018 at 7:13 AM, JurijTurnsek said:

If 4K has DPAF and no crop, this thing will destroy Sony/Nikon sales, no doubt. And because it is Canon, 3rd party lens producers will all speed up development of lenses for it.

We all know Canon can do it (though the mount is still a mystery), but hasn't done it so far, because they are very careful at cannibalizing their existing models.

4K will be a 1:1 crop of the sensor, approx. 1.6x

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24 minutes ago, Yurolov said:

Nokoshita leaks lens lineups:

EOS R body
EOS R 24105 kit
RF 35 mm F 1.8 M IS
RF 50 mm F 1.2 L USM
RF 28 – 70 mm F 2 L USM
RF 24 – 105 mm F4 L USM
M adapter R

 

wow

oh shit! hot lens line-up ?

now let's hear more about the body.. still no IBIS from Canon?

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21 minutes ago, Django said:

oh shit! hot lens line-up ?

now let's hear more about the body.. still no IBIS from Canon?

The fact that there is an RF adapter for the M mount points to the fact that the flange distance is going to be pretty long - most probably they are sticking with the 44mm of the EF mount so there is no need of an adapter for EF lenses. Nice lens specs.

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