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Andrew Reid

Nikon Z6 features 4K N-LOG, 10bit HDMI output and 120fps 1080p

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8 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

When it comes to storing video as 10bit or 8bit? Not really. 

 

We're talking about 4k 60p, were we not? A larger sensor will always require more processing power because there is more data to process. More processing creates more heat. 

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7 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Ohhh now deflecting, it was 60p 4k not 10bit or 8 bit. Even that might require not the sensor but expeed more data transfer, but not as much as 30p - 60p.

Read the below.

6 hours ago, Tone1k said:

DJI can see the importance of 10bit internal recoding in a mid range drone. Why the hell are Sony and Nikon still doing 8bit internal? Massive fail... Especially on Nikon's parts. Move on!

Not sure where I mentioned 4K60p?

Either way, are you saying that Nikon and Sony's high end Mirrorless cameras have less image processing power than a consumer drone? 

Data rates are not the issue here. There are plenty of 10bit codecs that are easy to record to SD card. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Read the below.

Not sure where I mentioned 4K60p?

Either way, are you saying that Nikon and Sony's high end Mirrorless cameras have less image processing power than a consumer drone? 

Data rates are not the issue here. There are plenty of 10bit codecs that are easy to record to SD card. 

 

 

Capture+_2018-08-24-15-38-59~2.png

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22 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

 

Capture+_2018-08-24-15-38-59~2.png

Read the thread properly. I stated 10bit vs 8bit and Danyyyel came back with the reply above stating 4k60p as a reply to my bit depth comment....which is not what I was referring to as you should be able to read. 

Again, read my comment. I still can't see where I mentioned 4K60p. 

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27 minutes ago, Mokara said:

No it doesn't. Pixels are pixels, the processor doesn't care how big they are.

Pixel are Pixel but bigger the sensor bigger the heat, more processing it does the heat goes up. It is mitigated by better (generally smaller lithography packing more chip in smaller space ), That's what has driven the price performance of semi conductor in the last 50 years. Unfortunately sensor size are setm, so manufactueing process, material etc can be use but not as big a change as a node reduction. 2 bit more is 25% more data to move around and copy, perhaps they can and are just doing the planned obsolescence, or they just can't. 

31 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Read the thread properly. I stated 10bit vs 8bit and Danyyyel came back with the reply above stating 4k60p as a reply to my bit depth comment....which is not what I was referring to as you should be able to read. 

Again, read my comment. I still can't see where I mentioned 4K60p. 

OK, my bad, but just 1 year ago everyone was complaining about overheating Sony cameras. 2 bit more is 25% more data that has to be moved and recorded by the camera. So Sony just resolved the problem with the A73, so I am not sure that this tech is feasible just now. Have you seen the size of the other FF cameras that have 10 bit, I can tell you they don't fit in your hand. The last bit about DJI that you did not understand from my analogy. It has 1 much more smaller chip, second it has 4 propellers that not only cool it down but can even make it fly for 30 minutes. I am sure Nikon or Sony can cool there camera enough it they even had one of those propellers, but would you carry it and what about the sound.

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11 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Pixel are Pixel but bigger the sensor bigger the heat, more processing it does the heat goes up. It is mitigated by better (generally smaller lithography packing more chip in smaller space ), That's what has driven the price performance of semi conductor in the last 50 years. Unfortunately sensor size are setm, so manufactueing process, material etc can be use but not as big a change as a node reduction. 2 bit more is 25% more data to move around and copy, perhaps they can and are just doing the planned obsolescence, or they just can't. 

But the sensor is outputting high bit depth RAW data so it's heat production is a constant no matter if the final codec is 8bit 10bit.

Next comes the processor. It needs to process the RAW data. 

What takes more processing power, RAW to 10bit ProResLT or RAW to 8bit h264? 

Lastly, that data has to be pushed to the storage media of choice. 

We all know that QXD and even SD for that matter can easily handle 10bit ProRes without the interface getting all that hot. 

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12 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

While this article is written by a Sony rumor site owner, there are interesting new facts. 

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-z7-z6-quirks-has-blackout-z7-does-5-5fps-no-lens-mount-sharing-to-third-parties/

It adds up quite a bit. 

What does it add, that Nikon wants to protect its lens mount, that's not a surprise. It will be to the Sigma of this world to reverse engineer there lens, they won't just give it up. Jared Polin tested its Sigma art on the Z7 with the Fmount adapter and it worked, at least that it.

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Ultimately what I was trying to get at by indirectly comparing Nikon's camera to a drone  is that DJI (a drone company) can see the value of 10bit codecs in consumer drones but camera manufacturers who's primary goal is image quality, apparently can't. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

What does it add, that Nikon wants to protect its lens mount, that's not a surprise. It will be to the Sigma of this world to reverse engineer there lens, they won't just give it up. Jared Polin tested its Sigma art on the Z7 with the Fmount adapter and it worked, at least that it.

It should be kind of a surprise given how short sighted it is to "protect" the mount. It's not like people are going to stop buying Nikon glass. And given that the lens mount was seemingly designed for compatibility/adaptability, it's kinda contradictory. Reverse engineering is possible, obviously, but it could hurt lens performance from 3rd parties. 

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4 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

But the sensor is outputting high bit depth RAW data so it's heat production is a constant no matter if the final codec is 8bit 10bit.

Next comes the processor. It needs to process the RAW data. 

What takes more processing power, RAW to 10bit ProResLT or RAW to 8bit h264? 

Lastly, that data has to be pushed to the storage media of choice. 

We all know that QXD and even SD for that matter can easily handle 10bit ProRes without the interface getting all that hot. 

As I said, this is just theory, but Sony has just been able to put a FF camera that does not have overheating issues. I don't think they intentionally made there camera overheat just to show us that they were at there technological limit in terms of power/processing size. So I guess they and Nikon must be still very close to that limit. look at the M43 BMPCC 4k which needs active cooling to do prores 4k.

Just now, newfoundmass said:

It should be kind of a surprise given how short sighted it is to "protect" the mount. It's not like people are going to stop buying Nikon glass. And given that the lens mount was seemingly designed for compatibility/adaptability, it's kinda contradictory. 

Nikon in its history has always been keen in using/protecting its own lens because it depends a lot on its lens. It might be said that they are foremost an optic company before being and electronic one. Contrary to Sony who have partened left and right because it considers itself as a camera manufacturer. Another difference is that Sony desperately wanted to have lens for its system, while Nikon does not.

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8 hours ago, Django said:

"One thing I did not mention is battery life. The battery read 44% at the end of our shooting which included 500 or so photos, setting up the menus as well as filming for close to 20 minutes in full frame 4k. Not sure if that is good or bad just yet but a grip is something I will def be using with two batteries."

That is a massive improvement over the US Nikon site ratings info. Looks like the Japanese site rating (85 minutes of video) is more accurate. That is quite excellent news as battery life was a massive blow in the announced specs..

 

I think it is very similar to the first and second gen Sony's.

They get a LOT more shots/video if used at once than the CIPA ratings indicate.        If you stop and start and shoot sporadically and don't recharge as many would do with a DSLR, then I would think the battery life WOULD be low.

I know that until it died, I was getting far more shots per charge with my A7s and that was using four year old batteries used daily.         I would use them and then charge when finished regardless of what was left and have a couple of spares handy if not always needed.          In order just to have something to shoot with, I now have my Dads 4/3 DSLR and the battery is used differently and not charged daily (no video though and I don't use it anywhere near as much).

 

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23 minutes ago, noone said:

I think it is very similar to the first and second gen Sony's.

They get a LOT more shots/video if used at once than the CIPA ratings indicate.        If you stop and start and shoot sporadically and don't recharge as many would do with a DSLR, then I would think the battery life WOULD be low.

I know that until it died, I was getting far more shots per charge with my A7s and that was using four year old batteries used daily.         I would use them and then charge when finished regardless of what was left and have a couple of spares handy if not always needed.          In order just to have something to shoot with, I now have my Dads 4/3 DSLR and the battery is used differently and not charged daily (no video though and I don't use it anywhere near as much).

 

That's very interesting, I have same problem in video with my Nikon. If I shoot one long shot , the battery stay for hours, but if as normal shooting, I start stop 10-30 sec shots very rapidly the battery drains. So you meant that if you charge your battery often (which was not my case still lately when I really started to do a lot of video) it will work better?

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@noone most likely a typo, Nikon japan site rates the battery life for video at 85mn: http://www.nikon-image.com/products/mirrorless/lineup/z_6/spec.html

there is also a battery saving feature and of course it all depends how you use the camera, but jareds report should indicate real world field use is much superior to the CIPA rating..

55 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Ultimately what I was trying to get at by indirectly comparing Nikon's camera to a drone  is that DJI (a drone company) can see the value of 10bit codecs in consumer drones but camera manufacturers who's primary goal is image quality, apparently can't. 

 

DJI isn't just a drone company anymore, they purchased hasselblad and mavic 2 embarks a hasselblad branded camera, hence the more pro specs (on paper, really i suspect it's more marketing). it has a 1" sensor though, making 10-bit relatively easy to achieve processing wise. this is how panasonic and now fuji are achieving 10-bit internally without heat issues. it's another story for full frame mirrorless. regardless, nikon are the first to push 10-bit external on a sensor and body this size..

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9 hours ago, Geoff CB said:

Waiting to see the one thing that hasn't been addressed, how good is the rolling shutter on the camera?

Thats what DP review had to say

On our pre-production Z 7, rolling shutter performance in the Super 35/DX crop region looks identical to what we saw on the D850 in both its full-frame and crop modes, which is impressive considering the Z 7 is oversampling. We generally find this level of rolling shutter isn't too bothersome, mainly posing problems in fast pans and the like. Once you switch the Z 7 into full-frame 4K mode, the rolling shutter effect is unfortunately magnified, and is more noticeable in casual shooting.

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27 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

That's very interesting, I have same problem in video with my Nikon. If I shoot one long shot , the battery stay for hours, but if as normal shooting, I start stop 10-30 sec shots very rapidly the battery drains. So you meant that if you charge your battery often (which was not my case still lately when I really started to do a lot of video) it will work better?

It is just the routine I got into with mirrorless.       I have the charger plugged into a wall socket and at the end of a day, I charge the batteries I have used and replace it with the last one charged.      I know I get (got) hundreds of shots and some video (often a song or two at a gig) and it would be far more than the CIPA ratings.

All three of my A7s batteries are nearing the end of their lives I think though the camera being dead (at least for now) makes that point moot.

I would shoot a concert or multi band gig and get several hundred more shots than CIPA figures indicate (and the three batteries would be more than I need for pretty much anything) but if I took say 30 shots today and 40 tomorrow and didn't charge, THEN likely by the following day I would have little left while DSLRs usually can go days without charging.

It does seem the figures are a bit more than first stated for the Zed's I think but I would still think this same situation would apply and I would treat it the same as I would my A7s rather than a DSLR.

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2 hours ago, Django said:

@noone most likely a typo, Nikon japan site rates the battery life for video at 85mn: http://www.nikon-image.com/products/mirrorless/lineup/z_6/spec.html

there is also a battery saving feature and of course it all depends how you use the camera, but jareds report should indicate real world field use is much superior to the CIPA rating..

DJI isn't just a drone company anymore, they purchased hasselblad and mavic 2 embarks a hasselblad branded camera, hence the more pro specs (on paper, really i suspect it's more marketing). it has a 1" sensor though, making 10-bit relatively easy to achieve processing wise. this is how panasonic and now fuji are achieving 10-bit internally without heat issues. it's another story for full frame mirrorless. regardless, nikon are the first to push 10-bit external on a sensor and body this size..

DJI is impressing me a lot with cutting edge features and true innovation continuously. Sony and canikon don’t impress me. Especially Canikon who serves you the same conservative specs and features years after years. Let’s be honest, those « reinvented mirrorless » have nothing reinvented. 

I wished so much à Chinese and or US company would make consumer FF cameras, everything would be far different. 

When DJI releases an APSC cam it comes with RAW and Prores Raw. Not Sony 8bit XAVC or bullshit canon 800mbps aging codecs... 

well there is an American company called black magic and guess what? They give us 4K60p raw for less money. They are just too video Focused. I wished they made mirorless FF hybrids.

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14 hours ago, Simon Young said:

This infamous dude at least shot portions of this video with the Z7 and the colors look good. The footage not shot on the Nikon is shot with the a7iii and has the trademarked Sony zombie colors, it becomes very apparent.

 

He also says in the commentaries that the battery life at least seems better than the CIPA rating. Which is a slight relief.

 

https://youtu.be/X2kcBclF40M

When I first saw this video, I immediately noticed an improvement in the portion of the video with the colored background.  I was wondering what he did to improve his video quality so much.  It looked so much more professional.  The colors popped.  Then he said he was using the Z7 for that portion of the video.  There's no doubt in my mind your can get truly pro quality video out of the Z7.

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