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Nikon FF Mirrorless

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7 minutes ago, kye said:

I know that some people don't think the C200 or C100 are large, but when you look at the A7 series, or their XC10, they're enormous.

I am sort of embarrassed to be seen with my Sony A7s on my Tripod and Manfrotto 502 fluid head combo. It looks like a peanut on it. Kind of overkill.

I guess I will have to take @mercer advice and buy a C100 to sit on it!

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2 hours ago, kye said:

 

 

The A7III doesn't have proper weather sealing?

The website says:

"Major buttons and dials are sealed. Sealing is provided throughout the body to minimise entry of dust and moisture" and "Not guaranteed to be 100% dust and moisture proof."

I'm new to weather sealing, so what does this really mean?  Don't shoot in the rain?  Don't shoot in heavy rain?  Be careful of sprinklers?

 

I would not call any of the E mount cameras to date "weather sealed".      All the A7 series have had SOME sealing of sorts but very little beyond maybe a gasket here or there.

That said, unless you are shooting in adverse conditions, it isn't something I would worry about too much.

I have used my A7s (and previous A7) in light rain and  and with the A7, used it for most of an Australian football match in slightly harder rain and was using unsealed adapted lenses with a plastic bag over the lens and it did stop towards the end but was fine after drying it out.      Most cameras I have had from Pentax, Canon and Nikon would have been no different really and even though I have had dozens of lenses in my lifetime from many makers, I don't think ANY have been weather sealed and that includes several thousand dollars worth of Canon L lenses.

As for this new camera, it LOOKS promising and I hope it is fantastic but unless I can adapt my Sony FE 85 1.8 and Sony Zeiss FE 55 1.8 AND is bargain priced it isn't for me (I would bet I will not be able to adapt those lenses and it isn't bargain priced).

The mount while bigger than Sony E and Canon M seems hardly big enough for medium format (it is only about 3mm bigger than the small Sony E I think and 2mm than Canon M which is to date only APSC).

As for fast lenses, well Sony E takes Canon lenses and native lenses including f1, f0.95 and even f0.85 for that APSC Ibelux so that isn't going to be anything new with the new fast lens patents.    Maybe it might mean much less vignetting?

Again, I hope this is just the beginning and it is brilliant (and the same for Canon).

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1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I am sort of embarrassed to be seen with my Sony A7s on my Tripod and Manfrotto 502 fluid head combo. It looks like a peanut on it.

I know you come from a history of larger cameras and are comfortable with them.

By contrast, I'm embarrassed to be seen with any camera that attracts attention from non-camera-people.  I recently went on a sunset cruise in the tropics and was sitting with my family on the top desk enjoying a cheese platter and the sunset, and grabbing the odd shot with my XC10, Rode VMP+ and Gorillapod.  It was lovely and relaxing, but when the table next to us had a 25 minute conversation about my camera I was a lot less relaxed and it took me away from enjoying the experience.  

In this way it was the classic problem of "don't let the photography get in the way of enjoying your holidays and time with your family" but it wasn't me doing the photography that was the distraction but the size of the equipment and other peoples reactions to it...  If the RX100 or my smartphone could do 4K for 30 minute takes with a 10x zoom lens and log profile with decent IS and directional audio then I'd ditch big camera rigs in a millisecond and never look back.

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46 minutes ago, kye said:

well, ignoring the Red Weapon competitor you slipped in there, these are really Pocket 2 competitors not A7 or CaNikon competitors.

Which of the Kinefinity Terra 4K / Z Cam E2 / Cinemartin Fran 8K is the Red Weapon competitor? I feel only the first two of those is in broadly the same class. 
Clearly as soon as I mentioned Cinemartin Fran 8K it is clear I'm joking! 😉
Except as we've learned recently on EOSHD it is very very very hard to tell when someone is joking around online. 

 

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10 minutes ago, kye said:

I know you come from a history of larger cameras and are comfortable with them.

By contrast, I'm embarrassed to be seen with any camera that attracts attention from non-camera-people.  I recently went on a sunset cruise in the tropics and was sitting with my family on the top desk enjoying a cheese platter and the sunset, and grabbing the odd shot with my XC10, Rode VMP+ and Gorillapod.  It was lovely and relaxing, but when the table next to us had a 25 minute conversation about my camera I was a lot less relaxed and it took me away from enjoying the experience.  

In this way it was the classic problem of "don't let the photography get in the way of enjoying your holidays and time with your family" but it wasn't me doing the photography that was the distraction but the size of the equipment and other peoples reactions to it...  If the RX100 or my smartphone could do 4K for 30 minute takes with a 10x zoom lens and log profile with decent IS and directional audio then I'd ditch big camera rigs in a millisecond and never look back.

Hmm, what about a Sony RX10 series camera? The RX10 mk II and up.

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14 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Which of the Kinefinity Terra 4K / Z Cam E2 / Cinemartin Fran 8K is the Red Weapon competitor? I feel only the first two of those is in broadly the same class. 
Clearly as soon as I mentioned Cinemartin Fran 8K it is clear I'm joking! 😉
Except as we've learned recently on EOSHD it is very very very hard to tell when someone is joking around online. 

I figured the 8K was an 8K camera competitor..  but cinema cameras are a long way from where I play.  The XC10 used to be a cinema camera on Canons website when it launched, but it's been moved since then!!

I figured you were joking with the Kinefinity and Z Cam, but I looked up the prices and they were in the same ballpark as the A7's!

14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Hmm, what about a Sony RX10 series camera? The RX10 mk II and up.

They're basically the same size as XC10 or A7III.  By the time you put a microphone on the top for directional audio (so my footage of my kid in a go-kart doesn't include the parents sitting behind me gossiping - true story) and a handle / rig of some kind (so the video at 10x zoom, which is 240mm, is minimised while being hand-held in places like tour busses where you can't fit a tripod or monopod - also true story) then the rig is the same size.

I started with a pocket camera and have gradually navigated to my current setup one change at a time to address a real issue or limitation I hit while actually shooting.  

Anyway, let's hope that Nikon make a camera as small as they can while still including the features and ergonomics they designed in, rather than something that makes retired ENG shooters feel like they're back on the job!!

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3 minutes ago, kye said:

Anyway, let's hope that Nikon make a camera as small as they can while still including the features and ergonomics they designed in, rather than something that makes retired ENG shooters feel like they're back on the job!!

You know they were not as bad as you would think to have on your shoulder for long periods of time. They were really balanced well. It is Really rare to ever see shaky footage from one, and a hell of a lot of it was walking backwards!

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53 minutes ago, Mako Sports said:

Last time I checked Canon said they would sue ML if they tried to release more builds hence why there's been nothing for the 80D, 5Dmk4, and 1DXMK2. Canon still wants you to spend $7K (C200) for good video features.

Hang on.....  I thought Canon was only threatening ML to not touch the Canon 1D C?

Are they bullying ML to not even mess with the lowly 80D?!?! Wow. That is low Canon, very low. 

5 minutes ago, kye said:

I figured the 8K was an 8K camera competitor..  but cinema cameras are a long way from where I play.  The XC10 used to be a cinema camera on Canons website when it launched, but it's been moved since then!!

I figured you were joking with the Kinefinity and Z Cam, but I looked up the prices and they were in the same ballpark as the A7's!

Is funny how life is!

Cinemartin Fran 8K = you thought I was serious, I was joking. 
Z Cam / Kinefinety = you thought I was joking, but I was serious!

 

1 hour ago, kye said:

Well, Moores law states that computer power doubles every 18 months or so.  If we assume this is true then it means that it will take 3 years to go from 4K to 8K processing.  Even if thermal solutions and marketing and investment don't keep pace, it will still be within 5-10.  Think about how long it took to go from SD to HD to FullHD and to 4K.  SD to HD was 2.25x pixels, HD to FullHD was 2.25x pixels, FullHD to 4K was 4x pixels.

Full HD to 4K is "only" four times the pixels (thus should "only" take 3yrs for us to catch up with Moores Law), yet the transition from FHD to 4K has taken much much much longer than 3yrs! (heck, we're not even there yet! The transition to 4K is still on going. I mean, in some places they still haven't caught up to FHD!)

And I expect the change over from 4K to 8K will take even longer than it is taking for FHD to 4K because of diminishing returns. (the benefits of SD to HD was fairly obvious, from 4K to 8K? Less so)

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12 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Cinemartin Fran 8K = you thought I was serious, I was joking. 
Z Cam / Kinefinety = you thought I was joking, but I was serious!

 

Full HD to 4K is "only" four times the pixels (thus should "only" take 3yrs for us to catch up with Moores Law), yet the transition from FHD to 4K has taken much much much longer than 3yrs! (heck, we're not even there yet! The transition to 4K is still on going. I mean, in some places they still haven't caught up to FHD!)

And I expect the change over from 4K to 8K will take even longer than it is taking for FHD to 4K because of diminishing returns. (the benefits of SD to HD was fairly obvious, from 4K to 8K? Less so)

I thought you were joking about all three, but the first two are actually competitors.  Or maybe I'm confusing myself.  When I said that you said that I said...... 😆

I think FullHD to 4K took 10 years.  I bought one of the first half-reasonably priced FullHD computer monitors 11 years ago, and one of the first half-reasonably priced 4K computer monitors 1 year ago after the first one died.  I agree about diminishing returns for 8K but we're not talking about 8K display, we're talking 8K capture and we already have 6K which is half-way there, so in theory Sony should release an 8K downsizing camera in about 2 years or so!  I agree it won't be 2 years, but it'll be closer to 10 than it will be to 20 :)

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6 hours ago, kye said:


On the A7III the 24-105 F4 is double stabilised and when combined with the crop mode and clear image zoom there would need to be a  m43 lens that was 12-120mm F2 zoom to keep the zoom range and DoF.  I think the Canon and Nikon aren't likely to be able to match the zoom range either, although I'd be happily proven wrong!

Nikon have had their 24-120mm f4 stabilised zoom on the market for the best part of a decade and their FX cameras also have a switchable DX mode in so if they add a clear zoom function (which I would expect them to as it is a standard function now) then you will be covered and a bit more.

I would struggle to even guesstimate how many Canon 24-105mm f4L IS lenses are out there in the wild after the success of the 5D Mkii so I think they'll have you covered too when their time comes.

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23 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Nikon have had their 24-120mm f4 stabilised zoom on the market for the best part of a decade and their FX cameras also have a switchable DX mode in so if they add a clear zoom function (which I would expect them to as it is a standard function now) then you will be covered and a bit more.

I would struggle to even guesstimate how many Canon 24-105mm f4L IS lenses are out there in the wild after the success of the 5D Mkii so I think they'll have you covered too when their time comes.

Ah, I didn't know about the DX mode, and your optimism about both providing a crop mode and digital zooms is encouraging.  24-105 with the option to go 2.25x more is really a great coverage and F4 on FF is enough DoF separation, for me at least.  Great stuff!

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Seriously if Nikon just makes their DX Mirrorless being a Samsung NX1 at a Nikon D7500 price point with a perfectly flawless Nikon F mount adapter included, then I will be a very happy boy instead!

And if Nikon can add a little gravy on top like a 10bit output and waveform monitoring, then I'll just be doing cartwheels of joy. 

But I fear that Nikon will not even be releasing *any* type of Nikon DX during 2018.

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2 hours ago, kye said:

Ah, I didn't know about the DX mode, and your optimism about both providing a crop mode and digital zooms is encouraging.  24-105 with the option to go 2.25x more is really a great coverage and F4 on FF is enough DoF separation, for me at least.  Great stuff!

I'm never knowingly optimistic so I should probably have a lie down !

If they reworked that 24-120mm for this new mount as a premium kit lens option it wouldn't surprise me.

 

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Still have Nikon Trinity (Tamron though, but they have sweet vc, never found the Nikon's to be worth it and I owned all of them) and use d750 for photos. Really hoping it competes with the Sony stuff and manages 4k60! Nikon flat was very good :)

 

Not going to preorder based on the qc of last several generations of Nikon stuff (d750 is the only camera I've ever owned that has needed service, and one of mine has a sticky shuttern AFTER getting on replaced, which they refuse to fix unless I pomy up more $$$)

 

Will definitely pick one up if it matches Sony and does 4k60!

The larger mount is a very good news for Ibis, Sony is garbage compared to Panasonic in that area. Really wish they had made the emount larger for better ibis.

 

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53 minutes ago, scotchtape said:

 

The larger mount is a very good news for Ibis, Sony is garbage compared to Panasonic in that area. Really wish they had made the emount larger for better ibis.

 

Yeah, consider bigger mass should be more stable than smaller mass you would think ibis should be piece of cake for Sony but noooo.  (Gimbal on ronin is much more stable than osmo, but opposite on stabilising on camera sensor? That doesn’t make sense)

 

I think the small diameter of the e-mount actually hurt Sony in the long run.

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4 hours ago, scotchtape said:

Still have Nikon Trinity (Tamron though, but they have sweet vc, never found the Nikon's to be worth it and I owned all of them) and use d750 for photos. Really hoping it competes with the Sony stuff and manages 4k60! Nikon flat was very good :)

 

Not going to preorder based on the qc of last several generations of Nikon stuff (d750 is the only camera I've ever owned that has needed service, and one of mine has a sticky shuttern AFTER getting on replaced, which they refuse to fix unless I pomy up more $$$)

 

Will definitely pick one up if it matches Sony and does 4k60!

The larger mount is a very good news for Ibis, Sony is garbage compared to Panasonic in that area. Really wish they had made the emount larger for better ibis.

 

You might have a winner with the bigger mount for ibis, that could be why they choose a bigger mount so that the sensor can move a bit more.

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It's official then

https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/mirrorless-is-coming.page

From the press release..


Nikon will continue to lead imaging innovation with the launch of the new mirrorless camera and the continued development of Nikon Digital-SLR cameras as well as the impressive NIKKOR lens lineup. Soon, Nikon users will have two industry-leading camera systems to choose from, giving consumers the choice to enjoy the unique values that each system offers.

  

Looks like they'll be developing both systems in parallel for the foreseeable future then.

Interesting to know how much people are going to be reading into the use of the word 'consumers' in that last sentence as well. 

Not to mention the release describing the mount adapter being 'in development', which is fine as the cameras still are too of course, but if that's a hint that its coming after launch then that wouldn't be ideal.

And by not ideal I actually mean pretty rough.

If the launch ends up being two not inexpensive consumer cameras and a small handful of lenses in the new mount with no support for their existing back catalogue then they'll have a real problem I think.

On the basis that they must also know that then maybe it suggests the actual availability of these cameras is further away than people expect. 

We'll know at Fotokina I suppose whether they've made this announcement as a prelude to an imminent release of the products or primarily to lay down a marker against what Canon will be showing there.

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14 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Looks like they'll be developing both systems in parallel for the foreseeable future then.

Just like Sony is doing with E and A mount.... 

Oh wait. 

Yup, I expect the same will happen to F mount. It will keep going "strong" for another couple of years then gradually the speed and range of updates to the Nikon F mount ecosystem will contract until you're left with just one DX DSLR and one FX DSLR in their line up. Then they won't get updated for years, and then they'll disappear completely as A mount is about to one day do. 

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I suppose how I'm looking at it from a purely selfish (and slightly niche needs) perspective is that this all strikes me as being transitional rather than plug in replacement/alternative and that it could still be a couple of years before its reached that point.

If I'm going to switch then, as a bare minimum, the whole system has to do what my current one does, even before we get to it being an improvement.  

For me, that, means they'd either need an adapter from day one that gave native AF performance of my existing glass or have 14-24mm f2.8, 24-70mm f2.8, 70-200mm f2.8, 300mm f2.8, 400mm f2.8 in the new mount from day one.

I can't see either of those things happening and, quite frankly, I'd shit myself if they called my bluff and did the latter as no way is re-buying all that glass financially viable for me ;)

So, after years of waiting for Nikon to do a full frame mirrorless, I'm probably not going to end up buying it (for work at least) !

It will no doubt be a great camera though. 

 

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