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Andrew Reid

Samsung open to new camera system, joins forces with Fujifilm

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5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

A larger sensor? Ah well, guess that means my Samsung lenses will remain worthless :-/ 

Couldn't our fastest SD cards today do 6K H.265?

Even with a Full Frame sensor, they will certainly have the crop aps-c option.
But I'm pretty sure they will keep the X-mount system.

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

Interesting they showed it in Germany.      What possible camera company could they have been trying to interest?

As for sensor sizes, and is it or isn't it medium format, well while it is certainly not medium format FILM size, it is about all we have for medium format DIGITAL so I am fine with it being CALLED medium format, it is just a name.

Surely they will make any sensor they can for anyone if there is interest so maybe they wont make a new camera but I would guess Fujifilm would be the likely candidate for new sensors so they don't rely on Sony (Nikon seems to be going with Tower Jazz in FUTURE maybe - NOT the D850).

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7 minutes ago, noone said:

Interesting they showed it in Germany.      What possible camera company could they have been trying to interest?

Most likely VW, Mercedes and BMW - combined vehicle sales over 15,000,000 in 2017. Most of their vehicles have at least 1 camera, and higher end models have many more. That's volume the digital camera market will never come close to seeing again - and with increased camera use for auto safety and autonomous driving, its a massive growth industry.

As soon as I saw this on Fujirumors, I knew this would start more fake news NX2 chatter. Just like the Exymos presser that started the fake NX2 chatter a few months ago.

Perhaps down the line this could benefit Fuji and bring an end to the Sony monopoly in the ILC world, but for now its about mobile and industrial. Also, maybe - just maybe, Fuji will partner with Samsung for better in-cam processors since Samsung is capable of raising the bar beyond everyone else.

Chris

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15 minutes ago, Gordon Zernich said:

Perhaps a silly idea, but why couldn't Samsung put it in a bridge camera with a great, fast telescopic lens and blow up the market? That keeps expenses on the Samsung side way down.

Really good bridge camera are like the high end Point N Shoot stuff, Way to damn expensive to sell many for making a profit in the long run. I think Sony just keeps updating them to show off their 1" sensor improved tech that seems to be used by everyone. I would not doubt they loose money on them.

You can buy a damn good camera for 1300 to 1500 bucks new or used. Sure you are not getting the fast lens but most people in that price range have some lenses anyways.

Plus I think Samsung would be crazy to get back in the camera market. It is a sinking ship down the road. No room for small market camera company's in the future other than Leica, Digital MF stuff. But I guess it is a good way to show off your Sensor Tech!

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12 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

Most likely VW, Mercedes and BMW - combined vehicle sales over 15,000,000 in 2017. Most of their vehicles have at least 1 camera, and higher end models have many more. That's volume the digital camera market will never come close to seeing again - and with increased camera use for auto safety and autonomous driving, its a massive growth industry.

As soon as I saw this on Fujirumors, I knew this would start more fake news NX2 chatter. Just like the Exymos presser that started the fake NX2 chatter a few months ago.

Perhaps down the line this could benefit Fuji and bring an end to the Sony monopoly in the ILC world, but for now its about mobile and industrial. Also, maybe - just maybe, Fuji will partner with Samsung for better in-cam processors since Samsung is capable of raising the bar beyond everyone else.

Chris

I think you are right about the car makers.         I do wonder if they would have at least offered it to Leica though unlikely.

I do think it is just about them making sensors for anyone and everyone they can flog them too and staying well clear of making cameras themselves now.

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A return by Samsung to the camera manufacturing business would be very difficult, the one thing they need which they lost so spectacularly is trust. But making sensors for other manufacturers makes a lot of sense, the sensor in their NX1 was ground-breaking. Are there any other 28Mp APS-C sensors even out there yet.....?

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55 minutes ago, Tim Shoebridge said:

A return by Samsung to the camera manufacturing business would be very difficult, the one thing they need which they lost so spectacularly is trust. But making sensors for other manufacturers makes a lot of sense, the sensor in their NX1 was ground-breaking. Are there any other 28Mp APS-C sensors even out there yet.....?

Just a rumor but could be a real life camera this September. I don't think there is any other than Samsung that have used 28mp.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60732517

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Collaborations and sharing between companies can significantly impact the success of a product line...  Imagine how different it would have gone if Panasonic and Olympus had competed with each other instead of making their m43 lenses compatible.

In many industries there is only room for a set number of 'systems' so if two manufacturers who aren't currently occupying one of those slots team up they've got a much better chance of throwing someone off a throne and taking that slot.

Of course, even if this ends up being a camera, we'd have to wait a long time and even then all it takes would be for it to have poor AF or no IBIS or one of any number of other 'sins' and it won't do well in the marketplace.

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Having to compete against Sony head to head is no small feat. As we all know, Sony Corporate has stated they plain to be the #1 camera company by what was it, like 2022 or something. Well that is not my idea of a friendly market to get back into unless Samsung figures many someone like Nikon goes under, and there is some room in the market. Who knows. But I can see them doing the Senor sales thing with Fuji working out, if not just for Fuji alone.

I think they have been wanting to dump the X Trans Sensor for awhile. It really is worse than their Bayer sensor as of late. I think Fuji always wanting to have some odd duck sensor in their cameras has become too big of a drag on the company in this day and age. They need a change.

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3 hours ago, Tim Shoebridge said:

A return by Samsung to the camera manufacturing business would be very difficult, the one thing they need which they lost so spectacularly is trust. But making sensors for other manufacturers makes a lot of sense, the sensor in their NX1 was ground-breaking. Are there any other 28Mp APS-C sensors even out there yet.....?

Samsung returning to produce sensors for the camera manufacturers makes a lot of sense. I doubt the major brands enjoy being dependent on Sony (an increasingly aggressive competitor) and would 'prefer' to buy from an 'independent' manufacturer. In that respect Samsung returning to make cameras would actually be counterproductive because they would, like Sony, become a competitor rather than independent supplier.

Ultimately I think Sony's success in the camera business will come at a cost to their (camera) sensor business. I see a lot of the brands moving from Sony when they eventually get some decent competition either from Samsung, Tower Jazz or whoever.

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1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Samsung returning to produce sensors for the camera manufacturers makes a lot of sense. I doubt the major brands enjoy being dependent on Sony (an increasingly aggressive competitor) and would 'prefer' to buy from an 'independent' manufacturer. In that respect Samsung returning to make cameras would actually be counterproductive because they would, like Sony, become a competitor rather than independent supplier.

Ultimately I think Sony's success in the camera business will come at a cost to their (camera) sensor business. I see a lot of the brands moving from Sony when they eventually get some decent competition either from Samsung, Tower Jazz or whoever.

I don't think Sony is going to loose any sleep with Samsung or anyone else in the Sensor business. Sony is the King of video. They have been pretty much since the start. The have the best engineers in the business. And they have plowed a crazy amount of Billions of dollars into their sensor Fab plants. Plus like I said they want to be #1 by 2022. And I am not sure if they can do that, but if anyone can it's Sony. and they will undercut everyone, even themselves, just like they did with this new A7 mk III for market share. They stuck a stake in Canon and Nikon's heart with that move. No more charging 3 grand for FF stuff now unless it is their flagship. It even sent a message to Panasonic, Olympus on their 2500 dollar m4/3 stuff. And now BMD even set a new standard cost wise with the 4K BMPCC.

Sony is out to win at any cost. Now no doubt if you can come up with a new Sensor that has say like DPAF in it like Canon did,  or some other magic thing, well good. But if you think you are going to go toe to toe with Sony on sort of the same tech, well good luck with that lasting. To have a Big name camera maker switch from Sony, well it would have to be an earthshaking new design. That don't happen very often.

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10 hours ago, keessie65 said:

this was posted 5 days ago, Old news or did this guy knew more a few days ago? 

Nope, it just one of those many YT channels / websites which takes a maybe rumor then runs with it as far as they can. (as *sometimes* they get lucky and it turns out true, now their early videos/webpage will get tonnes of hits)

10 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I wouldn't call it "medium format".  I shoot medium format film and 645 is like the red headed step child of medium format.  I shoot 6x6.  And I keep salivating over 6x8 and 6x9 cameras.

Indeed, 645 was the "small" size of medium format. And "affordable" digital 645 is the small version of the small version of medium format!

10 hours ago, Damphousse said:

You offer long time medium format shooters something smaller than 645 and you get the reaction you just witnessed.  Sorry.  That's just the way it is.  Marketing departments can label stuff whatever they want.  I mean they can call a Canon Rebel "full frame" if it makes them happy.  Doesn't change physics.  My only concern is how is this lens going to perform on this body?

Canon Rebel is "full frame" indeed for any APS-C lens!

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Really good bridge camera are like the high end Point N Shoot stuff, Way to damn expensive to sell many for making a profit in the long run. I think Sony just keeps updating them to show off their 1" sensor improved tech that seems to be used by everyone. I would not doubt they loose money on them.

Depressing to think their 1" cameras are so expensive yet they still lose money on them?! I kinda doubt that 

7 hours ago, keessie65 said:

Chances that with this news Samsung will give us new firmware for the NX1, to keep us interested in their system?

Somewhere between nil and zero. Take your pick. 
 

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3 hours ago, kye said:

Collaborations and sharing between companies can significantly impact the success of a product line...  Imagine how different it would have gone if Panasonic and Olympus had competed with each other instead of making their m43 lenses compatible.

Exactly, then MFT would have lost one of their key strengths if they'd competed with each other. 

 

3 hours ago, kye said:

In many industries there is only room for a set number of 'systems' so if two manufacturers who aren't currently occupying one of those slots team up they've got a much better chance of throwing someone off a throne and taking that slot.

I wonder what the world have looked like if Samsung and Fujifilm had shared a mount right from the start to focus specifically on an APS-C system

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11 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Exactly, then MFT would have lost one of their key strengths if they'd competed with each other. 

 

I wonder what the world have looked like if Samsung and Fujifilm had shared a mount right from the start to focus specifically on an APS-C system

I think it would have made a difference..  of course, if the one with the larger lens selection and sales history had licensed the technology to the other then it would have been better than inventing a new one as there would be a range already available.

I think people underestimate the influences of lenses on body sales - everyone is critical of Canon DSLRs for video yet they still manage to make lots of money and some of that has to be because of the huge range of glass available.

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Samsung will not come back to professional camera market. Period. 

Nor will supply sensors to this market. Smartphone sensors are much more profitable (better yields, more volume). They pŕobably already repurposed the NX1 sensor factory line to make smaller sensors - if they are willing to sell that amazing NX1 sensor to other vendors, they would done it a long ago. I doubt that Nikon, Panasonic, Olympus, Fujifilm like to be in Sony's hands when it comes to sensors.

About this collaboration with Fujifilm: Fujifilm still have a very strong chemical arm, and I remember some time ago an announcement of a plastic film designed to enhance sensor's performance - this collaboration with Samsung is just it, supplying a product to enhance their sensor performance, and that's it.

Samsung coming back to professional cameras is just wishful thinking. They are leaders in smartphone camp, which makes MUCH more money nowadays than stand alone cameras. And profit margins are MUCH higher in this camp too.

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I think that at least the last part of the article is super enthousiastic to the limits of sentimental. First of all, while a sensor is typically a chip, it is not the same process as the one used for microprocessors. As such do not expect to see the same processes and especially make such comparisons. On the other hand, even if someone were to make an analogy, 180nm is Pentium 4 era (that is 2000 to 2008) and 65nm is Core 2 era (2006 - 2011). I have to stress again though that this does not compare!! The processes are different and sensors have a lot of analogue stuff that are not in microprocessors.

Furthermore, Samsung is just scratching the surface of 7nm production. I am pretty sure that 7nm is not HVM (High Volume Manufacturing) yet and 5/4nm is at research level. Again though we need to stress that these processes are NOT for sensors but for purely digital circuits. Mixed processes are a few nodes back.

Another thing that we need to understand is that Samsung is actually a conglomerate of several companies. One of them is Samsung LSI that makes chips and this part of the company could very well produce sensors for the needs of others (i.e. under contract) or as merchant chips. Therefore having a sensor does not mean that Samsung will return to the camera business (which again is not accurate since Samsung is actually in that business as a result of its phones and stuff).

We also need to understand that FujiFilm apart from its camera division, it is one of the largest companies in the world for material and things like that. The fact that they have collaborated with Samsung is no different from the fact that they have collaborated with Panasonic again for sensors, etc. So while there may be a connection, an order or a technology transfer, it is equally probable that this is business as usual and not an indication that the next sensor in a Fuji camera will be from Samsung.

 

 

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