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2018 - The year of the VDSLRs?


mkabi
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Happy New Year all!!!

I know, I know... every year can technically be the year of the hybrid DSLRs or VDSLRs.... Given how these companies are spitting them out. But, hear me out...

There is obviously the eminent GH5S announcement in early January, speculated to be a low-light, more video centered camera.

The inevitable follow up to the a7sii, given that the a7riii was announced a couple of months ago. We all know that the A7S lineup is the more video oriented one...

Apperently, the Canon 7D Mark 3 and 90D is also expected with 4K... but I also expect heavy crops on them. The Canon 7D has been a staple in affordable VDSLRs, before the t2i came out... And, the XXD line from the 70D onward is Vlogging heaven sent for some. Other rumours coming out about Canon include ILC version of XC10/15, 6K C900 and possibly a c100 mark 3.

Red's hydrogen one - I just want to see the hologram technology - speaking of which has anyone seen "7D holograms" in action? Like in person? I didn't even know about this till last evening... Google/Youtube search that and you will know what I mean... Anyway, back to the hydrogen one... I also want to see it in different camera configurations and sensor sizes...

Blackmagic... Boy oh boy... Can't wait to see what's up their sleeves. It's going to be one hell of an ace of spades.... 

This the year son... This the year!

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From what I understand (and this is something I read a portion of one wikipedia article on, so I don't understand much), most so-called "holograms" are either stereoscopic AR (hololens) or a pepper's ghost (Tupac) or at best an implementation of a lenticular display (like the 3DS except with a wide viewing angle and without eye tracking). Lenticular displays divide the resolution in each dimension by a factor of the number of discrete viewing perspectives... so a UHD hologram would become 240X135 if you have a 16X16 display hologram...  and that's not even enough perspectives for a decent horizonatal viewing angle. Think Lytro cameras, but in reverse. I think the Lytro cinema camera is 755 megapixels so you'd want something like that to get a cinema-quality hologram, both on the capture and display side...

Don't quote me on this but the 7D holograms are likely glorified wide FOV stereoscopic 3D (the whale video is a magic leap promotional video rendering in CGI). It's probably just like those 3D IMAX shows from the past, but updated a bit. Just my guess. And I've heard the Red Helium technology is a four-view lenticular display, possibly with some sort of tabletop viewing tech on top of that that provides the illusion of projection from the screen. (3DS is two-view with eye tracking and must be viewed within a narrow viewing cone.) From what I've heard, there's no really groundbreaking tech there, but it's all in the implementation of course. The iPhone was only groundbreaking to the extent that it worked well. :/

I am excited for the 90D, but the crop will probably kill it. :(

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Okay, here's a more pessimistic expectation:

- Panasonic will release the GH5s as a camera that will have a native 4K sensor, resulting in about 1 stop more light sensitivity and 1 stop more dynamic range, and perfect Vlog compatibility (since the Vlog curve was designed for cameras with higher dynamic ranges than the GH4 and GH5). However, lack of oversampling will result in a less detailed image with more moiré problems. In addition, the camera will cost a hefty premium over the GH5, catering to buyers who want a compact b-cam to a Varicam or EVA.

- Sony will release the A7S Mark III. It will have the same sensor as the A9 at a lower price, but like the A7 RIII, it will still be an 8bit camera with 8bit pseudo-HDR.

- Canon will release the 7D Mark III with the same underwhelming video specs (mushy 1080p in 8bit) as every Canon APS-C DSLR since 2009 and as the current EOS-M cameras.

- Fuji will release the video version of the XT2, but its video features (4K 8bit) will just be on par of what Sony has been offering since a couple of years with the A6300, A6500 and A7s/R II.

- Blackmagic will further streamline its camera portfolio and phase out at least one of its three compact bodies (Pocket, Micro Cinema Camera or Micro Studio Camera). Development will continue to focus on the URSA camera line. (This is already visible in the fact that there have been no more firmware updates for the compact bodies for quite some time.)

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, cantsin said:

Panasonic will release the GH5s as a camera that will have a native 4K sensor, resulting in about 1 stop more light sensitivity and 1 stop more dynamic range, and perfect Vlog compatibility (since the Vlog curve was designed for cameras with higher dynamic ranges than the GH4 and GH5). However, lack of oversampling will result in a less detailed image with more moiré problems. In addition, the camera will cost a hefty premium over the GH5, catering to buyers who want a compact b-cam to a Varicam or EVA.

Have you seen the images Luke has been posting? Go look through the Middle Path thread for the 6K image of the robot. There is no lack of detail. In fact I'd say the opposite is true. Also, it will cost $2500. Is that a hefty premium?

17 minutes ago, cantsin said:

Blackmagic will further streamline its camera portfolio and phase out at least one of its three compact bodies (Pocket, Micro Cinema Camera or Micro Studio Camera). Development will continue to focus on the URSA camera line. (This is already visible in the fact that there have been no more firmware updates for the compact bodies for quite some time.)

Blackmagic is working on a smaller bodied 4K camera. But they are running into physics troubles, that I assume they'll eventually solve, probably by NAB. They've said as much. 

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5 hours ago, mkabi said:

Apperently, the Canon 7D Mark 3 and 90D is also expected with 4K...

Not... going... to... happen.

How would they cripple them so as not to compete with the C100 MK II?  You realize the C100 MK II is still only 1080p and costs $3,500?  I have no inside information but after considering Canon C line of cameras I've given up trying to figure out their crippling strategy.  They surprised me by putting raw into the C200... and surprised me by nixing the 10 bit 4:2:2 codec.  What will they do for C100 MK III?  4K, no raw, and only 8 bit 4:2:0?  Still seems like too much overlap with the C200.  I have a funny feeling a lot of the raw hopefuls with the C200 are going to be using 8 bit 4:2:0 more than they anticipated.  And if they can save thousands on a camera...

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1 hour ago, Damphousse said:

Not... going... to... happen.

How would they cripple them so as not to compete with the C100 MK II?  You realize the C100 MK II is still only 1080p and costs $3,500?  I have no inside information but after considering Canon C line of cameras I've given up trying to figure out their crippling strategy.  They surprised me by putting raw into the C200... and surprised me by nixing the 10 bit 4:2:2 codec.  What will they do for C100 MK III?  4K, no raw, and only 8 bit 4:2:0?  Still seems like too much overlap with the C200.  I have a funny feeling a lot of the raw hopefuls with the C200 are going to be using 8 bit 4:2:0 more than they anticipated.  And if they can save thousands on a camera...

I'm not very hopeful about the Canon 7D mark 3 and 90D having 4K either... And, my pessimism towards Canon have been there since the 7D mark 2. And, your arguments for the C line and c100 mark 2/3 are very sound.

But... This time, although I might regret saying this... I'm going to bet the farm...that the 7D mark 3 and/or 90D will have 4K.

Let's see why:

-The 7D has always been dubbed the mini-1DX - atleast since the introduction of the 7D mark 2. If that remains true, and it's missing 4K...???

-XXD side follows suit from the 7D line. You will see that there isn't much difference between the 70D and the 7D mark 2.

-I know that they didn't have 4K in the 6D mark 2, but if sensor resolution has something to do with the 4k crop factor... Then the 6D mark 2 would've had better 4K crop than the 5D mark 4 and there would be no point in putting C-log in the 5D mark 4, because most people would still choose the 6D mark 2  for 4k(cheaper, better crop and flip out screen). Which brings me to the rumoured crop on the Canon APS-C... I've been hearing that there is going to be a 1.4 crop on the already 1.6 crop sensor, which means 2.24 crop. (That's worse than the GH5 no?)

-If they don't add 4K into their 7D or XXD line now.... They will have to in their next iteration.... Which is 4 years away.... The GH5 is already doing 6K anamorphic.... Weren't most people talking about 8K cameras for 2020 Olympics?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/8/26/12656286/8k-tv-broadcasts-2020-olympics-sony-panasonic

Can Canon really wait till 2022 for 4K in their APS-Cs? When 8K is aimed for 2020?

As for your dilemma about the c100 mark 2 competing with the 7D mark 3 or 90D. Because of resolution... I feel a price drop coming for both C100 mark 2 and C200. Then you will obviously have to choose between crappy 1080p from the APS-Cs and really bad 4k crop.... Over amazing 1080p sampled from a 4K sensor, xlr inputs, built in nd-filter, etc.

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18 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Which brings me to the rumoured crop on the Canon APS-C... I've been hearing that there is going to be a 1.4 crop on the already 1.6 crop sensor, which means 2.24 crop. (That's worse than the GH5 no?)

And then all the Canon fanboys will be explaining away why over 2x crop really isn't so bad after all!

When they've been laughing and hating upon MFT users for years...

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To be fair, because I saw somewhere else mentioning the C100mkII pricing, the price is with an Atomos Ninja INCLUDED in the price. For a lot of people that's all they need. C100's video quality has nothing to do with the underwhelming Canon dSLRs image quality.

I remember back in 2015, when the NX500 was out, a 700$ kit camera (with one of the best 16-50pz kit lenses), and still one of the smallest and lightest APS-C ILCs, the press crucified it because of the 4K crop. 3 years later Canon and Nikon can not solve the puzzle on bigger and heavier dSLRs.

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19 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Blackmagic is working on a smaller bodied 4K camera. But they are running into physics troubles, that I assume they'll eventually solve, probably by NAB. They've said as much. 

And they'll wow everyone with a big NAB splash - then after the usual delays it'll ship in early 2019.

Sarcasm. Sort of.

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16 hours ago, mkabi said:

I'm not very hopeful about the Canon 7D mark 3 and 90D having 4K either... And, my pessimism towards Canon have been there since the 7D mark 2. And, your arguments for the C line and c100 mark 2/3 are very sound.

But... This time, although I might regret saying this... I'm going to bet the farm...that the 7D mark 3 and/or 90D will have 4K.

Let's see why:

-The 7D has always been dubbed the mini-1DX - atleast since the introduction of the 7D mark 2. If that remains true, and it's missing 4K...???

-XXD side follows suit from the 7D line. You will see that there isn't much difference between the 70D and the 7D mark 2.

-I know that they didn't have 4K in the 6D mark 2, but if sensor resolution has something to do with the 4k crop factor... Then the 6D mark 2 would've had better 4K crop than the 5D mark 4 and there would be no point in putting C-log in the 5D mark 4, because most people would still choose the 6D mark 2  for 4k(cheaper, better crop and flip out screen). Which brings me to the rumoured crop on the Canon APS-C... I've been hearing that there is going to be a 1.4 crop on the already 1.6 crop sensor, which means 2.24 crop. (That's worse than the GH5 no?)

-If they don't add 4K into their 7D or XXD line now.... They will have to in their next iteration.... Which is 4 years away.... The GH5 is already doing 6K anamorphic.... Weren't most people talking about 8K cameras for 2020 Olympics?

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2016/8/26/12656286/8k-tv-broadcasts-2020-olympics-sony-panasonic

Can Canon really wait till 2022 for 4K in their APS-Cs? When 8K is aimed for 2020?

As for your dilemma about the c100 mark 2 competing with the 7D mark 3 or 90D. Because of resolution... I feel a price drop coming for both C100 mark 2 and C200. Then you will obviously have to choose between crappy 1080p from the APS-Cs and really bad 4k crop.... Over amazing 1080p sampled from a 4K sensor, xlr inputs, built in nd-filter, etc.

I agree with your points but there is a Big IF in it. If Canon Does come out with a Mirrorless FF this year they are going to Have to have 4k in it. So I don't see them letting lesser cameras steal it's thunder if they do??

But I guess the lessor ones could have a crap Codec and a big crop factor and the Mirrorless FF have great specs?

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10 minutes ago, Trek of Joy said:

And they'll wow everyone with a big NAB splash - then after the usual delays it'll ship in early 2019.

Sarcasm. Sort of.

I don't think so. Ever since the mishaps they had with the shipping delays of the original URSA mini, every single hardware announcement the've made has been ready to ship immediately or within in the immediate future. Personally I think they've learned their lesson in this regard. 

Personally I think there is already another camera. A BM engineer briefly talked about it with me at the last NAB and told me he looked forward to speaking with me about it at the following year's NAB (with a smile and wink). My guess is that the old BM would have announced it already. But this time they are waiting until they are ready. It also wouldn't surprise me if they announce and launch prior to NAB like they did the URSA mini pro, but who knows. 

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57 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I agree with your points but there is a Big IF in it. If Canon Does come out with a Mirrorless FF this year they are going to Have to have 4k in it. So I don't see them letting lesser cameras steal it's thunder if they do??

But I guess the lessor ones could have a crap Codec and a big crop factor and the Mirrorless FF have great specs?

I don't know if you're joking or for real with that comment, the scale is tipping more towards the sarcastic side... but I'm afraid to laugh... in case, I hurt your or other people's feelings towards a possible FF MILC from Canon.

21 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

They've said as much. 

Care to share a direct link so that I (and others) can read it too? Only asking so that I don't needlessly rummage around on google finding false info. 

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2 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Care to share a direct link so that I (and others) can read it too? Only asking so that I don't needlessly rummage around on google finding false info. 

Sorry. I don't have the link. It was a video posted from a conference. Which one I don't know, but it was since NAB 2017 (or possibly from NAB 17).

Also, some of what I meant there was said to me personally at last year's NAB from BM reps, I believe even one of them being Dan May himself, though I talked about a couple things with him so I don't remember that was from him. Basically they are committed to nothing less than 4K. I think they've also said getting 4K into smaller bodies is tricky engineering. 

Again, another engineer spoke with me about a new camera. It came up because I made a request to have an alternate way to retrieve footage from their cams with something other than a card reader... i.e. a way to connect the camera directly to a computer or hard drive. He said they were already working on that and would look forward to speaking with me at next year's NAB. ;) So take this as an official new rumor (F5) -- the next BM camera will be able to offload footage via a method other than card reader (mind blown). lol

That's all I've got. We'll see if they overcome the engineering challenges and what actually materializes. 

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2 minutes ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Sorry. I don't have the link. It was a video posted from a conference. Which one I don't know, but it was since NAB 2017 (or possibly from NAB 17).

Also, some of what I meant there was said to me personally at last year's NAB from BM reps, I believe even one of them being Dan May himself, though I talked about a couple things with him so I don't remember that was from him. Basically they are committed to nothing less than 4K. I think they've also said getting 4K into smaller bodies is tricky engineering. 

Again, another engineer spoke with me about a new camera. It came up because I made a request to have an alternate way to retrieve footage from their cams with something other than a card reader... i.e. a way to connect the camera directly to a computer or hard drive. He said they were already working on that and would look forward to speaking with me at next year's NAB. ;) So take this as an official new rumor (F5) -- the next BM camera will be able to offload footage via a method other than card reader (mind blown). lol

That's all I've got. We'll see if they overcome the engineering challenges and what actually materializes. 

Personally speaking, I'm not really interested in an alternate way of offloading video, I'm sure... you are looking for something like Eye-Fi (which, btw... does video too)

https://www.engadget.com/2009/03/03/eye-fi-does-video-with-new-4gb-explore-video-and-share-video-car/

Now, I would be interested in a Pocket mark 2 - similar to the original that used the Nikon batteries and had an LCD on the back, may be add a larger sensor, more resolution (5K+), more DR (or at least industry standard 11-12), more frame rates  (4K @ 120fps would be nice :D) and may be use Canon LP-E6 batteries. 

 

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I’d rather a 4k sensor & lens unit with a “video assist” to do the job of recording and monitoring. Happy with external batteries. A 4k micro plus a 5” 4k VA (with raw).

As a bonus it would be useful to interact with the camera menus via the VA - the buttons on the micro are truely dreadful. A power input socket rather than the mess of the expansion socket might also be a good idea.

But I think I’d buy an A7Siii with 10 bit first because I do a lot of low light stuff.

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5 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

And they'll wow everyone with a big NAB splash - then after the usual delays it'll ship in early 2019.

Sarcasm. Sort of.

BMD has been better lately with shipping products more promptly, the BMD URSA Mini Pro was announced and immediately available to buy:

 

Quote

In a first for Blackmagic cameras, you can actually purchase one today. 



http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/03/02/blackmagic-design-announces-the-ursa-mini-pro-with-built-in-nd-filters-and-user-changeable-lens-mounts/

 

 

4 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

Again, another engineer spoke with me about a new camera. It came up because I made a request to have an alternate way to retrieve footage from their cams with something other than a card reader... i.e. a way to connect the camera directly to a computer or hard drive. He said they were already working on that and would look forward to speaking with me at next year's NAB. ;) So take this as an official new rumor (F5) -- the next BM camera will be able to offload footage via a method other than card reader (mind blown). lol

 


But why would you want to do that?!?! I can offload footage from Sony PMW-F3 via USB, but I only do that because an SxS reader is kinda expensive and sometimes I forget my SD/SxS adapter, so I use my SxS cards in a pinch. 

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3 hours ago, mkabi said:

Now, I would be interested in a Pocket mark 2 - similar to the original that used the Nikon batteries and had an LCD on the back, may be add a larger sensor, more resolution (5K+), more DR (or at least industry standard 11-12), more frame rates  (4K @ 120fps would be nice :D) and may be use Canon LP-E6 batteries. 


If they're going to use Nikon batteries again I'd hope for Nikon EN-EL15 (same as in D500, and lots of others), which are a lot bigger than the ones in the Pocket!

Or pop it on the back like the Micro, with NP-F batteries (which give lots of size options). Or BP-U batteries, like FS5/FS7/EX1/EX3/Terra/etc use (and also comes in many different sizes). 

3 hours ago, Snowfun said:

I’d rather a 4k sensor & lens unit with a “video assist” to do the job of recording and monitoring. Happy with external batteries. A 4k micro plus a 5” 4k VA (with raw).


I'd rather the recording was internal, to SanDisk Extreme Pro cards. So then you have many many more options when it comes to monitoring (as you can use just a normal monitor, not monitor/recorders). 

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On 02/01/2018 at 7:32 PM, IronFilm said:


If they're going to use Nikon batteries again I'd hope for Nikon EN-EL15 (same as in D500, and lots of others), which are a lot bigger than the ones in the Pocket!

Or pop it on the back like the Micro, with NP-F batteries (which give lots of size options). Or BP-U batteries, like FS5/FS7/EX1/EX3/Terra/etc use (and also comes in many different sizes). 


I'd rather the recording was internal, to SanDisk Extreme Pro cards. So then you have many many more options when it comes to monitoring (as you can use just a normal monitor, not monitor/recorders). 

Never going to happen. Data rate for 4K raw with Blackmagic cameras is over 250 MB/s. UHS-III would be adequate for sequential writes, but the camera data bus was designed way before the spec was even finalized. And BM has phased out SSDs. New camera will use CFast.

Prepare your wallet.

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