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Andrew Reid

Canon C200 vs Panasonic GH5, a preview

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3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Worst case scenario we get 300 Mbits XF-AVC 8bit 4:2:2 on CFast, best case scenario we get 400 Mbits XF-AVC 10bit 4:2:2 on SD card.... in 1/2 year we will know.

I'm quite sure that they don't have it yet out just to protect the C300 II and not piss the owners. 

I'm betting it's codec will be the same ones from the C300mkii ported over. If they do this Canon will see C200 sales get another surge. The C300mkii is due for an ungrade, and will see one soon enough. I doubt that camera is flying off the selves at this point. I think the next 300 series camera will be higher resolution... probably 6k, and might also sport a raw option. 

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EOSHD Pro Color for Sony cameras EOSHD Pro LOG for Sony CamerasEOSHD C-LOG and Film Profiles for All Canon DSLRs

I agree with the last few opinions.

When the middle codec is out, this camera will be the best seller of its tier. Now that most players have played their hands, only Sony with FS5 is the one left. They will probably built an amazing spec sheet, but in the end this Canon has it all, and it will be difficult to be beaten.

Together with the CN-Es you can shoot almost everything, up to its tier (then you have to move to better cameras/lenses), and having Dual Pixel AF with those lenses, would be a huge selling point, that no one can reach any time soon (again, Sony, but they have to build 2 great and cheap cine lenses, which haven't so far).

I really wish I needed this camera, but probably a C100mkIII with the CN-E 18-80 would be much better for me and my needs. But then, I am sure it will be lacking a good middle codec, so not to hurt C200 sales.

C300mkII in Christmas time will be old news. That was fast!

 

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7 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Why is the EF mount a no go for you? Plenty to put on it besides just EF glass, and SLR Magic primes adapt just fine. Or do you have reason to need PL?

My legacy glass is all in Nikon mount...I own Nikons, Tokinas and the Sigma 12-35...also I full set of FD's in the Chrome lock ring...I did not want to start adapting everything again...I own exactly 1 EF  mount in a Samyang 35 that I've never used...I'm working on getting a feature into developement, and if funding for that came through, I can get incredible deals rental wise on Arri Masterprimes...so simply...(1) I never use AF and like manual lenses and (2) of course all my Nikon Mount Glass...I could go the Leitax Nikon to AF mount change... (over $1000 by the time I'd be done, and then I'd have to buy adapters to my GH5...I also don't like the lack of a lock ring on the EVA mount...makes the mount unshimmable...really more of a DSLR mount in quality, than I'd expect to find on a "Cine Camera"...so flexibility in the UMP made me start looking at that cam...and the more I look, the more I like!

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43 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I agree with the last few opinions.

When the middle codec is out, this camera will be the best seller of its tier. Now that most players have played their hands, only Sony with FS5 is the one left. They will probably built an amazing spec sheet, but in the end this Canon has it all, and it will be difficult to be beaten.

Together with the CN-Es you can shoot almost everything, up to its tier (then you have to move to better cameras/lenses), and having Dual Pixel AF with those lenses, would be a huge selling point, that no one can reach any time soon (again, Sony, but they have to build 2 great and cheap cine lenses, which haven't so far).

I really wish I needed this camera, but probably a C100mkIII with the CN-E 18-80 would be much better for me and my needs. But then, I am sure it will be lacking a good middle codec, so not to hurt C200 sales.

C300mkII in Christmas time will be old news. That was fast!

 

Have to agree completely with you and add that IMO the EVA missed the boat...Panny and Canon stand quite firmly in two camps and the biggest distinction lies in the different Image from the 2 cameras...and of course, the choice of lenses...good luck to Panny stealing Canon customers, but then again I'm no salesman...to equate the EVA with the Varicam LT in both EF and PL mount is a huge mistake...they're not remotely in the same league...and for Canon users I think the C200 will be a lovely camera and as @DBounce pointed out, may also pave the way to upgrades in the C300 and maybe even C100 series...the EVA may well turn into another YAGH...though I hope not!...we all only benefit from strong competition in the market!

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9 hours ago, mercer said:

Obviously a documentary with this type of scenario would not be a good fit for the Cinema Raw Lite... shoot in XF-AVC.

Never in a million years would I ever even consider shooting a micro budget comedy and allow the actors to improv for 5-10 minutes... that is a sure fire recipe for an unfunny movie.

 

Again commercials and corporate work one should use the MP4 or XF-AVC.

Again, with a few 256GB cards, at 30 minutes for each card, this is easily obtainable. I assume between takes you needed to reset? By the time you get to the third card, your first one will be fresh and ready. Again probably not a perfect scenario, but definitely not impossible.

But yes, the Cinema Raw Lite is not perfect for lots of scenarios. I am excited about it and as a writer/director, I just look at it how people used to shoot indie films on 16mm... 3:1 shot ratio... at best. So, for low rent stuff... shoot on MP4. For indie films (short and long form), music videos, and some docs shoot Cinema Raw Lite, and for higher end clients, shoot XF-AVC. It's a really good three tiered camera... or it will be when the FW update is released.

The documentary was destined for broadcast, and post wanted 10-bit for some compositing stuff with stock photos. XF-AVC isn't yet an option on the C200, so Raw would've been my only choice there. 

The actors weren't blindly improv-ing for 5-10 straight minutes. They started by working directly from the script, then the director would talk to them about the character and encourage them to change the words up for their comfort. Then the actors would add new lines and topics, and feel their way to a richer, more natural conversation. This meant the conversations had to play out in as long a take as possible, at least in the first angle, as otherwise the dialogue would suffer. Very cool working method, and we got some great stuff.

More to the point, I was hired on as the DP. You've never worked professionally, so this may be new to you, but I would never presume to tell my director how to work with his actors. I'd never work again. As the shooter, my place is to collaborate with the director and bring his vision to life. "You shouldn't work that way" or "I can't work like that because my camera..." etc are not options. 

Commercials and corporate work are generally for broadcast, meaning that I'd have to use RAW. Also, this was another instance where clients requested 10-bit 422. In addition, it had to be delivered to their post people for a relatively quick turnaround. If post called me and said "what the hell is this codec and how do I edit it?" and I answered with some shit about the Canon utility and how great it'll be once NLE support is widespread, guess who's never hiring me again?

We were not able to have electronics within a wide radius of the Tesla coil, as there was a risk of the field it creates frying anything nearby. Also, all available house power was going to lights and the robot, and we had a generator to handle the coil. There was nowhere to set up a DIT station, and we were shooting somewhere pretty of of the way, so no extra personnel for that either.

Plus, as you said, it wouldn't be ideal. We would've needed to bring down the robot arm, dismount the Faraday cage, change out the card, format, re-mount the cage, run the camera, then re-position the robot arm. And that would've taken 2-3 people to do quickly--people who were needed to reset the rest of the scene elements in a timely fashion. We were shooting night exterior, and we only had one day with the coil. There was no extra time to wrestle with media.

That's why I say this camera falls into no-man's-land. The 8-bit isn't good enough for me and many of my clients, and the RAW isn't practical for many shooting scenarios I encounter day to day. And the fact remains that I need enough media for a full day of shooting; it's an actual problem, not a straw man argument.

For you personally, shooting RAW all day with minimal media may be a viable option. For many of us, it is not. Implying that we are being disingenuous or lazy for pointing that out is reductive and misleading.

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10 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:
9 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The documentary was destined for broadcast, and post wanted 10-bit for some compositing stuff with stock photos. XF-AVC isn't yet an option on the C200, so Raw would've been my only choice there. 

The actors weren't blindly improv-ing for 5-10 straight minutes. They started by working directly from the script, then the director would talk to them about the character and encourage them to change the words up for their comfort. Then the actors would add new lines and topics, and feel their way to a richer, more natural conversation. This meant the conversations had to play out in as long a take as possible, at least in the first angle, as otherwise the dialogue would suffer. Very cool working method, and we got some great stuff.

More to the point, I was hired on as the DP. You've never worked professionally, so this may be new to you, but I would never presume to tell my director how to work with his actors. I'd never work again. As the shooter, my place is to collaborate with the director and bring his vision to life. "You shouldn't work that way" or "I can't work like that because my camera..." etc are not options. 

Commercials and corporate work are generally for broadcast, meaning that I'd have to use RAW. Also, this was another instance where clients requested 10-bit 422. In addition, it had to be delivered to their post people for a relatively quick turnaround. If post called me and said "what the hell is this codec and how do I edit it?" and I answered with some shit about the Canon utility and how great it'll be once NLE support is widespread, guess who's never hiring me again?

We were not able to have electronics within a wide radius of the Tesla coil, as there was a risk of the field it creates frying anything nearby. Also, all available house power was going to lights and the robot, and we had a generator to handle the coil. There was nowhere to set up a DIT station, and we were shooting somewhere pretty of of the way, so no extra personnel for that either.

Plus, as you said, it wouldn't be ideal. We would've needed to bring down the robot arm, dismount the Faraday cage, change out the card, format, re-mount the cage, run the camera, then re-position the robot arm. And that would've taken 2-3 people to do quickly--people who were needed to reset the rest of the scene elements. 

That's why I say this camera falls into no-man's-land. The 8-bit isn't good enough for me and many of my clients, and the RAW isn't practical for many shooting scenarios I encounter day to day. And the fact remains that I need enough media for a full day of shooting; it's an actual problem, not a straw man argument.

For you personally, shooting RAW all day with minimal media may be a viable option. For many of us, it is not. Implying that we are being disingenuous or lazy for pointing that out is reductive and misleading.

 

I'm sorry but providing anecdotal evidence doesn't negate the argument I am making. Nor did what I say really contradict any concerns you had. I have already agreed with you that in a lot of circumstances Cinema Raw Lite isn't practical, nor ideal. And my lack of "professional experience" doesn't negate the possibilities this camera can afford many a filmmakers.

I assume Canon did their market research and decided there was a reason for them to include this format, even if it isn't ideal for all scenarios.

I think for the right filmmakers this is a great camera and quite possibly the biggest release for the low budget indie filmmaker in the past couple of years.

Sure there are pitfalls and compromises, but coming from a backyard filmmaking world you learn to work around those issues and come up with solutions. If that means recycling cards every hour, then that's what I do... hell it can't be worse than re-gelling halogen work lights after they melt every 10 minutes. Or finding the right branch to hang a china ball from and power it. Or being at the beach right at sunset only to find a couple with a selfie stick making kissie faces into their iPhones while they're stealing your light.

So yeah, for corporate, paid jobs, the Cinema Raw Lite is not ideal, but in a lot of scenarios, it's not impossible. I am sure professionals would know the difference when to use it or not.

It's just another tool in the box and the fact that Canon is even offering such a thing, at such a price point, is exciting... to me at least.

So if my agreeing with you was reductive and misleading, then I apologize. 

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Also, keep in mind there are still a lot of question marks surrounding the EVA, including the most critical point: what does the footage look like? Kinda important, that. 

We have the broad strokes, as we did when the GH5 was announced, but once the final product is there to see, I could see some people changing their tune. 10-bit Varicam image quality to dual SD cards in a 2-pound body sounds VERY attractive to me. 

Announcing a "winner" in this product segment is premature, and ultimately kind of silly. The FS7 has sold well, as has the FS5, and that line still has benefits not shared by their competition (adaptable and well-supported mount, name recognition among producers, timecode, the ability to speed boost, high quality HFR, internal 10-bit, etc). The EVA will likely do great. The C200 is already #2 in cinema cameras on B&H.

There is no "best." Those days are over. There's only different.

13 hours ago, mercer said:

This argument that a day's worth of footage would equate to the cards costing more than the camera is a complete straw man argument.

Who on this site would ever purchase that many cards, or need to? A couple 256gb cards or a few 128gb cards would be more than enough to get you through the day if you offload while you cycle through cards.

People with ML Raw have been doing this for years. It's hardly an issue.

This is the point I was refuting.

Mine are not 1 or 2 fringe use cases, but the kinds of situations I encounter all the time, spending day in day out shooting video for both money and pleasure. 

I never denied that the C200 was a powerful camera, or that the RAW was very exciting; in fact, I spent an entire paragraph of my first post in the topic praising Canon for including it.

My point was simply that the lack of a 10-bit codec hurts the viability of this camera for me and others like me. Believe me, I'm not the only one. Take a peek at DVX User.

The camera is already a smashing success, and it has a lot of points in its favor. If I were a different kind of shooter, I'd be all over it.

Side notes: 

-I wouldn't exactly call $7500 for the camera alone (plus media, power, etc) to be in the range of "low-budget filmmaking."

-If you buy used tungsten lights designed for filmmaking (dirt cheap on eBay now that LED is gaining steam), you can pin your gels to the barn doors where they won't "melt in 10 minutes." That's nuts! Your considerable talents would be better served focusing on your scene than finagling subpar lighting tools.

-By not buying CFast cards, you can make room in the budget to go up to that couple on the beach and slip them a twenty to relocate. ;)

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54 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

Also, keep in mind there are still a lot of question marks surrounding the EVA, including the most critical point: what does the footage look like? Kinda important, that. 

We have the broad strokes, as we did when the GH5 was announced, but once the final product is there to see, I could see some people changing their tune. 10-bit Varicam image quality to dual SD cards in a 2-pound body sounds VERY attractive to me. 

Announcing a "winner" in this product segment is premature, and ultimately kind of silly. The FS7 has sold well, as has the FS5, and that line still has benefits not shared by their competition (adaptable and well-supported mount, name recognition among producers, timecode, the ability to speed boost, high quality HFR, internal 10-bit, etc). The EVA will likely do great. The C200 is already #2 in cinema cameras on B&H.

There is no "best." Those days are over. There's only different.

This is the point I was refuting.

Mine are not 1 or 2 fringe use cases, but the kinds of situations I encounter all the time, spending day in day out shooting video for both money and pleasure. 

I never denied that the C200 was a powerful camera, or that the RAW was very exciting; in fact, I spent an entire paragraph of my first post in the topic praising Canon for including it.

My point was simply that the lack of a 10-bit codec hurts the viability of this camera for me and others like me. Believe me, I'm not the only one. Take a peek at DVX User.

The camera is already a smashing success, and it has a lot of points in its favor. If I were a different kind of shooter, I'd be all over it.

Side notes: 

-I wouldn't exactly call $7500 for the camera alone (plus media, power, etc) to be in the range of "low-budget filmmaking."

-If you buy used tungsten lights designed for filmmaking (dirt cheap on eBay now that LED is gaining steam), you can pin your gels to the barn doors where they won't "melt in 10 minutes." That's nuts! Your considerable talents would be better served focusing on your scene than finagling subpar lighting tools.

-By not buying CFast cards, you can make room in the budget to go up to that couple on the beach and slip them a twenty to relocate. ;)

Again, my point was and still is that since no user of the C200 would ever purchase that many cards makes that argument a straw man argument and moot. They would either offload or not use CRL.

But also, the SD cards needed for the 400mbps codec, in the GH5 and EVA won't be off the shelf SD cards you get at your local Walmart. Media has always been expensive unless you're shooting on a t2i or other consumer grade camera.

I would buy the C200B first, use old Nikkor lenses, or my EF lenses with an iPad and then eventually build upon that... but even still it isn't for no budget filmmakers like myself. But for micro filmmakers that may hire a Red, it's a great option.

Yes, those halogens were an old example from our Super 8/Hi-8 days, there are way too many small LED panels to mess with halogen work lights any more.

Again, this camera isn't for me anyway, because I couldn't risk the attention such a set up would get... and I can't afford one...

But if I can put together a small budget, I may rent one next summer and make a Dollar Baby short. 

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1 hour ago, mercer said:

Again, my point was and still is that since no user of the C200 would ever purchase that many cards makes that argument a straw man argument and moot. They would either offload or not use CRL.

But also, the SD cards needed for the 400mbps codec, in the GH5 and EVA won't be off the shelf SD cards you get at your local Walmart. Media has always been expensive unless you're shooting on a t2i or other consumer grade camera.

I would buy the C200B first, use old Nikkor lenses, or my EF lenses with an iPad and then eventually build upon that... but even still it isn't for no budget filmmakers like myself. But for micro filmmakers that may hire a Red, it's a great option.

Yes, those halogens were an old example from our Super 8/Hi-8 days, there are way too many small LED panels to mess with halogen work lights any more.

Again, this camera isn't for me anyway, because I couldn't risk the attention such a set up would get... and I can't afford one...

But if I can put together a small budget, I may rent one next summer and make a Dollar Baby short. 

But I still refute that point on the grounds that:

-owner operators need enough media to last the day

-offloading is not always practical or possible

-using MP4 does not produce acceptable results for me/my clients, both in terms of footage specs and actual file quality (I've played with samples)

But I feel like I've explained my position in excruciating detail; you can either accept it or not. 

Good SD cards I (and most shooters) have in abundance already, as most guys I know buy extreme pro, regardless of their camera's bit rate (just to be safe). My local Best Buy has 128GB SDs good enough for the EVA in stock regularly--if I need more, I can go get a couple or send a runner. It also has two card slots, so you can get 256gb in the camera at a time even if 128gb cards are the only ones available to you. The C200 only includes one CFast slot, so no such luck. 

The C200B is interesting if you're using a gimbal or flying the camera on a drone, but no top handle or screen means no XLRs or touch screen AF, which to me are big reasons to get the camera in the first place. 

I use Leica primes, SLR Magic primes, and Contax Zeiss zooms, so I feel you on adapted stuff. No PL option or locking EF mount is a real bummer. If they can give it a locking style mount by the time the camera ships, I think it'll buy them a lot of goodwill.

Honestly, this could be a good choice for a feature rental, especially if your local renters include media in the package. Great low light, nice latitude, easy to grade without paying for a real colorist. 4K doesn't matter much for festivals, but it can't hurt to have for flexibility in post.

If you only need 1080p and manual lenses, the F3 is still an amazing workhorse with a great image. My business partner and I use two of them paired with Shoguns, and I've had almost no complaints. It's a great price these days, too. Worth a look if you'd rather own!

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2 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

The documentary was destined for broadcast, and post wanted 10-bit for some compositing stuff with stock photos. XF-AVC isn't yet an option on the C200, so Raw would've been my only choice there. 

The actors weren't blindly improv-ing for 5-10 straight minutes. They started by working directly from the script, then the director would talk to them about the character and encourage them to change the words up for their comfort. Then the actors would add new lines and topics, and feel their way to a richer, more natural conversation. This meant the conversations had to play out in as long a take as possible, at least in the first angle, as otherwise the dialogue would suffer. Very cool working method, and we got some great stuff.

More to the point, I was hired on as the DP. You've never worked professionally, so this may be new to you, but I would never presume to tell my director how to work with his actors. I'd never work again. As the shooter, my place is to collaborate with the director and bring his vision to life. "You shouldn't work that way" or "I can't work like that because my camera..." etc are not options. 

Commercials and corporate work are generally for broadcast, meaning that I'd have to use RAW. Also, this was another instance where clients requested 10-bit 422. In addition, it had to be delivered to their post people for a relatively quick turnaround. If post called me and said "what the hell is this codec and how do I edit it?" and I answered with some shit about the Canon utility and how great it'll be once NLE support is widespread, guess who's never hiring me again?

We were not able to have electronics within a wide radius of the Tesla coil, as there was a risk of the field it creates frying anything nearby. Also, all available house power was going to lights and the robot, and we had a generator to handle the coil. There was nowhere to set up a DIT station, and we were shooting somewhere pretty of of the way, so no extra personnel for that either.

Plus, as you said, it wouldn't be ideal. We would've needed to bring down the robot arm, dismount the Faraday cage, change out the card, format, re-mount the cage, run the camera, then re-position the robot arm. And that would've taken 2-3 people to do quickly--people who were needed to reset the rest of the scene elements in a timely fashion. We were shooting night exterior, and we only had one day with the coil. There was no extra time to wrestle with media.

That's why I say this camera falls into no-man's-land. The 8-bit isn't good enough for me and many of my clients, and the RAW isn't practical for many shooting scenarios I encounter day to day. And the fact remains that I need enough media for a full day of shooting; it's an actual problem, not a straw man argument.

For you personally, shooting RAW all day with minimal media may be a viable option. For many of us, it is not. Implying that we are being disingenuous or lazy for pointing that out is reductive and misleading.

All these you are describing are a bit far fetched.

First, the camera is not out yet, and you haven't bought it, so there is NO change you will ever loose a job from a camera you can't buy yet.

Second, before you go shooting you, the producer, the director, the sound and probably more people of the production (costumes, location manager etc) discuss things and choose their equipment accordingly. There is a certain understanding between professionals, and I am sad to say, maybe you are a professional, but your director WASN'T. If you were shooting film you would be able to shoot for 2 hours straight? and what codec and camera allows you shooting RAW quality for hours? How much this setup costs? I understand that this camera isn't for you, but all the circumstances you described are a bit too much for real life situations.

P.S the XLRs are on body, not at the handle...

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I don't have a dog in this particular fight but with regard to the storage issue won't everyone just be using the CFAST eSATA breakout adapters like they do with the URSA and going straight to SSD?

The whole kit is around $120 so you're saving money straight away.

Because you can have a 2 metre cable limit for esata it can also mitigate more restricted access to rigged cameras too even if you can't fit what you're doing within the greatly extended record times offered by the higher capacity of SSDs.

It also takes away the not exactly readily available in your local supermarket aspect to using CFAST as well as you literally can get SSDs in my local supermarket !

Even if you did decide to go the CFAST only route, a Nexto DI will make offloading pretty much hands off, portable and quick.

I built my own DIY one for less than £50 so if anyone wants to buy one for their new C200 then form an orderly queue ;) 

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18 hours ago, Kisaha said:

Everywhere I was reading (like the quote above) were mentioning 8 bit! that is a great find Mercer.

As I said in one post the first day of the announcement, just after Christmas, Canon will announce this 10 bit middling codec, and it will make some C200 owners very happy!

The sad thing is the C300mkII owners, but that is the case with evolution, and I am glad that Canon takes part to it. At least they will sleep like babies for at least 8-10 more months!

On an unrelated event, FS5 just got an 1000$ rebate...

It is hardware encoding, so it will be limited by what the processor has in it's logic. If it could handle 10 bit then that would already be implemented already. My guess is that the hardware encoder will be limited to 8 bits, but other things such as bit rate or 4:2:2 might be available in future options, since those things don't require any physical change on the processor, such as register size and such.

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27 minutes ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

But I still refute that point on the grounds that:

-owner operators need enough media to last the day

-offloading is not always practical or possible

-using MP4 does not produce acceptable results for me/my clients, both in terms of footage specs and actual file quality (I've played with samples)

But I feel like I've explained my position in excruciating detail; you can either accept it or not. 

Good SD cards I (and most shooters) have in abundance already, as most guys I know buy extreme pro, regardless of their camera's bit rate (just to be safe). My local Best Buy has 128GB SDs good enough for the EVA in stock regularly--if I need more, I can go get a couple or send a runner. It also has two card slots, so you can get 256gb in the camera at a time even if 128gb cards are the only ones available to you. The C200 only includes one CFast slot, so no such luck. 

The C200B is interesting if you're using a gimbal or flying the camera on a drone, but no top handle or screen means no XLRs or touch screen AF, which to me are big reasons to get the camera in the first place. 

I use Leica primes, SLR Magic primes, and Contax Zeiss zooms, so I feel you on adapted stuff. No PL option or locking EF mount is a real bummer. If they can give it a locking style mount by the time the camera ships, I think it'll buy them a lot of goodwill.

Honestly, this could be a good choice for a feature rental, especially if your local renters include media in the package. Great low light, nice latitude, easy to grade without paying for a real colorist. 4K doesn't matter much for festivals, but it can't hurt to have for flexibility in post.

If you only need 1080p and manual lenses, the F3 is still an amazing workhorse with a great image. My business partner and I use two of them paired with Shoguns, and I've had almost no complaints. It's a great price these days, too. Worth a look if you'd rather own!

But your argument is akin to me saying I want to buy a Ford Fiesta but can't because it doesn't go 150mph. Basically, I would be saying I was never really going to buy a Ford Fiesta because it doesn't meet my needs, or it's impractical for what I am looking for in a car. It's not a fair criticism of the car, it's an unrealistic standard I am trying to hold the car to... hence it's a moot, straw man argument.

Either way, I think we can both agree it is an interesting camera, especially for Canon to have produced. 

Btw, the XLRs on the C200 are on the body and not the handle like the C100 and it is my understanding, the DPAF will work via wi-fi using an iPhone or iPad... unsure how much of a lag there is, but I believe users have had good results using it with the 1DX2.

And are we sure that Sandisk Extreme Pro cards will be usable with the 400mbps Dual ISO? Didn't Panasonic just release expensive, high data rate, SD cards? I assume for this purpose?

Even with the GH5, there has been issues with cards and compatibility, and I must assume the EVA will as well. Sure it probably won't be as much an issue as a C200, but it is something to be curious about. 

On another note, have you used the Contax Zeiss 28-70mm f3.5-4.5? I am interested in this lens for my 5D3.

 

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7 minutes ago, ade towell said:

am not sure it's an unrealistic standard to expect a camera costing £7,700 to have a 4k 10 bit codec. It's also my only major  grumble with what is otherwise looking a fantastic camera

I hope the XF-AVC is 10bit. As of now that info is TBA. I assume it will be, or should be, but knowing Canon I wouldn't bet on it. 

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5 hours ago, TheRenaissanceMan said:

That's why I say this camera falls into no-man's-land. The 8-bit isn't good enough for me and many of my clients, and the RAW isn't practical for many shooting scenarios I encounter day to day. And the fact remains that I need enough media for a full day of shooting; it's an actual problem, not a straw man argument.

I don't buy your reasons. People have shot with RAW enabled cameras for years and don't get me even started with 35mm film (somehow they could shoot long improvised takes with 35mm too, weird).

Blaming the DP on the post-workflow...well I guess yeah. You need to get out of the low-budget rut where people will shit on you no matter what.

If you can't DP on a Red, BM with RAW, Alexa (with arriraw) or the C200 because your client will blow up then you are definitely doing something wrong.

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34 minutes ago, hmcindie said:

I don't buy your reasons. People have shot with RAW enabled cameras for years and don't get me even started with 35mm film (somehow they could shoot long improvised takes with 35mm too, weird).

Blaming the DP on the post-workflow...well I guess yeah. You need to get out of the low-budget rut where people will shit on you no matter what.

If you can't DP on a Red, BM with RAW, Alexa (with arriraw) or the C200 because your client will blow up then you are definitely doing something wrong.

I have DPed with raw cameras plenty of times. It was the much more ubiquitous and well-supported cinema DNG, but still. It works very well for certain projects and certain shooting styles. My preferred way to work actually, but I'm still green and un-specialized enough that I don't get to do that as often as I'd like.

In my experience, shooting 10-bit 4:2:2 simply represents the best compromise between quality, file size, and workflow. It makes things look good for my clients, reasonable file sizes for me, and good vibes from post. 

The C200 competes with 3 other cameras: Ursa Mini Pro, FS7, and EVA1. All of those cameras have internal 10-bit 422 codecs. I don't find it unreasonable to wish this one did too.

The C200 indeed hasn't lost me work. I think it's a very solid camera for many users, and as I've said repeatedly, it seems like a great camera that I wouldn't judge anyone for liking or using. In fact, I even said a few rentals are probably in my future.

I'm simply laying out the reasons why I personally am disinterested in it as a purchase.

Seems like things are getting a bit hostile in here, so I'm going to withdraw from the discussion. @mercer, I'll shoot you a PM about lenses.

Cheers.

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10bit would be great but Canons 4K 8bit 4:2:2 is no slouch either. I'm abit suspicious that despite the EVA apparently having varicam IQ that it doesn't warrant the Varicam branding, but we'll soon see. Internal raw without hacks is great and I'm seriously considering one for just this reason.

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